Discussion 2024 USA Election Thread: Biden and Dems might have problems in 2024 swing states - The Gaza Issue

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Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,271
8,197
136
Well yeah, of course Florida was legitimate because he won! /S

That is basically the MAGA principle- the definitive evidence of voter fraud is "our guy didn't win".

I'm actually quite surprised the Tories here haven't adopted the same attitude. They've copied much of the rest, including voter-supression. But even though they introduced the entirely-unnecessary voter ID rules, they so far haven't made any claims about vote fraud actually affecting results.

Maybe because they are so busy fighting among themselves. Some of them seem to be happy for their party to lose elections because it strengthens their factions against the leadership.

The Republicans seem to have been comprehensively taken over by the MAGA people, whereas the Conservative Party hasn't quite gone fully UKIP - it's now a ramshackle coalition of feuding factions.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,708
49,291
136
That is basically the MAGA principle- the definitive evidence of voter fraud is "our guy didn't win".

I'm actually quite surprised the Tories here haven't adopted the same attitude. They've copied much of the rest, including voter-supression. But even though they introduced the entirely-unnecessary voter ID rules, they so far haven't made any claims about vote fraud actually affecting results.

Maybe because they are so busy fighting among themselves. Some of them seem to be happy for their party to lose elections because it strengthens their factions against the leadership.

The Republicans seem to have been comprehensively taken over by the MAGA people, whereas the Conservative Party hasn't quite gone fully UKIP - it's now a ramshackle coalition of feuding factions.
I’m pretty sure Republicans’ position is that Democrats commit fraud in every election but when Republicans win it’s because the ‘legitimate’ vote for them was so overwhelming.

I’m still unclear how they apply this principle to situations where Democrats win the presidency but Republicans win down ballot races. Maybe the fraudsters got tired and decided to skip some races?

Really though they don’t care about logic or consistency in that way. The consistency they care about is that they are the only legitimate rulers of the country. That’s why they say they are ‘real Americans’.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,752
34,630
136

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
23,647
10,507
136
Dems like to talk about having a deep bench (and I think they do), so maybe now is a good time to use it.

Much better option than Newsom.

I think Lawrence was addressing this directly to you.

 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
21,858
20,181
136
Joe Biden being the nominee is embarrassing for the Dems. You have the greatest threat to democracy and decency in decades and that's your A-team candidate? I can't blame people for being like wtf. But I have to acknowledge how bad it looks but who cares, y'all better get out and vote anyway because the stakes are too damn high and it's fundamentally good vs evil.

as far as arab american voters though - At this point, with Biden clearly funding a total ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians and vetoing the latest cease fire with over a million Palestinians pushed into a small area now being bombarded, I can't blame them for simply not voting. I mean sure Trump is worse, but I can't blame people for just not voting for Biden who is still literally protecting and supporting a genocide/ethnic cleansing. At some point assisting and funding and protecting a genocidal regime is evil enough to just not vote. To them that's a much more personal issue. It's part of the arab identity - the western colonialist subjugation of the Palestinians. So I can't blame them for focusing on that.
 
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hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
23,647
10,507
136
Joe Biden being the nominee is embarrassing for the Dems. You have the greatest threat to democracy and decency in decades and that's your A-team candidate? I can't blame people for being like wtf. But I have to acknowledge how bad it looks but who cares, y'all better get out and vote anyway because the stakes are too damn high and it's fundamentally good vs evil.

as far as arab american voters though - At this point, with Biden clearly funding a total ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians and vetoing the latest cease fire with over a million Palestinians pushed into a small area now being bombarded, I can't blame them for simply not voting. I mean sure Trump is worse, but I can't blame people for just not voting for Biden who is still literally protecting and supporting a genocide/ethnic cleansing. At some point assisting and funding and protecting a genocidal regime is evil enough to just not vote. To them that's a much more personal issue. It's part of the arab identity - the western colonialist subjugation of the Palestinians. So I can't blame them for focusing on that.
Just tell me who you are going to vote for. Otherwise this is just more fodder for Trump.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,708
49,291
136
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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,752
34,630
136
Joe Biden being the nominee is embarrassing for the Dems. You have the greatest threat to democracy and decency in decades and that's your A-team candidate? I can't blame people for being like wtf. But I have to acknowledge how bad it looks but who cares, y'all better get out and vote anyway because the stakes are too damn high and it's fundamentally good vs evil.

as far as arab american voters though - At this point, with Biden clearly funding a total ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians and vetoing the latest cease fire with over a million Palestinians pushed into a small area now being bombarded, I can't blame them for simply not voting. I mean sure Trump is worse, but I can't blame people for just not voting for Biden who is still literally protecting and supporting a genocide/ethnic cleansing. At some point assisting and funding and protecting a genocidal regime is evil enough to just not vote. To them that's a much more personal issue. It's part of the arab identity - the western colonialist subjugation of the Palestinians. So I can't blame them for focusing on that.

If they want to not participate in an election against a guy who, if he got a compliant Supreme Court ruling, would revoke their citizenships and deport them then that's a choice they are entitled to make. As it stands Trump has pledged to deport anybody on a visa who says negative stuff about Israel. I see a lot of people complaining about Biden and wishing him to lose the election over this who are totally ignoring what Trump's going to do. Not to mention the fact that Trump will be way more permissive as to what the Israeli right will do not just in Gaza but also in the West Bank.

It's fine to be frustrated at Biden's stance and to make that felt in the primary IMO. But in the general not voting for him is not going to be a win for anybody who has these issues as a priority.
 
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MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
21,858
20,181
136
If they want to not participate in an election against a guy who, if he got a compliant Supreme Court ruling, would revoke their citizenships and deport them then that's a choice they are entitled to make. As it stands Trump has pledged to deport anybody on a visa who says negative stuff about Israel. I see a lot of people complaining about Biden and wishing him to lose the election over this who are totally ignoring what Trump's going to do. Not to mention the fact that Trump will be way more permissive as to what the Israeli right will do not just in Gaza but also in the West Bank.

It's fine to be frustrated at Biden's stance and to make that felt in the primary IMO. But in the general not voting for him is not going to be a win for anybody who has these issues as a priority.
right. but how much can a population with an issue they identify with so dearly take? I mean to us it's like - sure just eat the genocide and vote for the guy. he's still better than Trump.

At this point, with what has happened in Gaza and how Biden is still funding them and protecting their ethnic cleansing, I honestly can't blame them for saying, there is only so much shit we can take and be taken totally for granted. I mean christ, you let Israel have their genocidal kicks, but you are still helping them?

I can gladly vote for Biden but I'm not an Arab-American that identifies with the oppression of the Palestinians, and now their blatant cleansing.

Just tell me who you are going to vote for. Otherwise this is just more fodder for Trump.

If you don't know who I'm voting for and who I tell people to vote for by now, you aren't reading my words correctly.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
21,858
20,181
136
Imagine telling people to just, you know, deal with the slaughter of their people by a government armed by the US whose government officials are proud of the ruins of and destruction of Gaza, you know, just let it slide? It seems there is a chunk of the Dem party, which stands as the only party of empathy in this country, sometimes completely lack it.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,752
34,630
136
right. but how much can a population with an issue they identify with so dearly take? I mean to us it's like - sure just eat the genocide and vote for the guy. he's still better than Trump.

At this point, with what has happened in Gaza and how Biden is still funding them and protecting their ethnic cleansing, I honestly can't blame them for saying, there is only so much shit we can take and be taken totally for granted. I mean christ, you let Israel have their genocidal kicks, but you are still helping them?

I can gladly vote for Biden but I'm not an Arab-American that identifies with the oppression of the Palestinians, and now their blatant cleansing.

Support for Israel has historically been a popular position for most Americans and, for somewhat different reasons, the politics on both sides have largely reflected that. Biden is just the current manifestation of this support. The Israeli's almost sank a USN ship and killed a few dozen sailors and that barely dented their standing.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
21,858
20,181
136
Support for Israel has historically been a popular position for most Americans and, for somewhat different reasons, the politics on both sides have largely reflected that. Biden is just the current manifestation of this support. The Israeli's almost sank a USN ship and killed a few dozen sailors and that barely dented their standing.

I mean thanks for proving my point. That's a long way to say forget about ethics are in the slightest; we can't expect Biden to buck the trend

Even though Israel committing this type of ethnic cleansing has never been seen before, We still wouldn't want him to hurt their feelings now would we.

Literally zero empathy and just oh this guy's helpless we can't dare Buck the Israelis even when they cross lines they've never crossed before, And they've crossed some fucked up lines already.

I mean you basically just proved their case to them. Congrats.
 

Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
10,384
7,023
136
The Israeli's almost sank a USN ship and killed a few dozen sailors and that barely dented their standing.

Can we get them to nuke the deep south and the midwest? I'm sure that'll barely dent their standing either! Might actually guarantee them aid!
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
31,794
10,321
136
Joe Biden being the nominee is embarrassing for the Dems. You have the greatest threat to democracy and decency in decades and that's your A-team candidate? I can't blame people for being like wtf. But I have to acknowledge how bad it looks but who cares, y'all better get out and vote anyway because the stakes are too damn high and it's fundamentally good vs evil.

as far as arab american voters though - At this point, with Biden clearly funding a total ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians and vetoing the latest cease fire with over a million Palestinians pushed into a small area now being bombarded, I can't blame them for simply not voting. I mean sure Trump is worse, but I can't blame people for just not voting for Biden who is still literally protecting and supporting a genocide/ethnic cleansing. At some point assisting and funding and protecting a genocidal regime is evil enough to just not vote. To them that's a much more personal issue. It's part of the arab identity - the western colonialist subjugation of the Palestinians. So I can't blame them for focusing on that.
Did Biden win 2020 or no? Because winning is what matters. If you can't win, it's all for naught
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
21,858
20,181
136
Did Biden win 2020 or no? Because winning is what matters. If you can't win, it's all for naught

I'm not sure why people bring up this point constantly as if 2020 is the same as 2024. Biden didn't have these fucking poll numbers then. And I'm still saying to vote for Biden I'm just saying you have to acknowledge the people that he's a pretty weak choice for a party that's trying to fight the end of democracy.

How can I convince people to get out and vote that need a little convincing by not being honest about this is a bit embarrassing for the Democrats And I understand your frustrations with this system.

And as far as the Arab Americans you can't have people just saying well we can't do anything so just suck it up. With literally zero empathy. Just fucking deal with it. Like this guy responds to me Biden can't do anything he's stuck. Like the fucking president of the United States is completely stuck when a genocide is being televised.
 
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manly

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
11,322
2,346
136
Did Biden win 2020 or no? Because winning is what matters. If you can't win, it's all for naught
If we keep listening to our pal MrSquished, we're all going to sit out 2024 and Biden will lose.
/s

Joe Biden's position on the Israel/Hamas war has actually moved substantially since Oct. 7 and continues to do so. It won't be enough to pull in the most progressive Palestinian supporters, but the administration has dissenters within its ranks and is publicly trying to walk a tightrope.
 

Roger Wilco

Diamond Member
Mar 20, 2017
3,934
5,816
136
I mean thanks for proving my point. That's a long way to say forget about ethics are in the slightest; we can't expect Biden to buck the trend

Even though Israel committing this type of ethnic cleansing has never been seen before, We still wouldn't want him to hurt their feelings now would we.

Literally zero empathy and just oh this guy's helpless we can't dare Buck the Israelis even when they cross lines they've never crossed before, And they've crossed some fucked up lines already.

I mean you basically just proved their case to them. Congrats.

If Biden bucking the trend leads to a hyper-pro-Israeli Trump presidency, was it worth bucking?
 
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