,

[KIRBYEE]

.

 

[StageLeft]

Why war? Because people are evil at the core.

EDIT: Heading now on CNN about the two fighters. Early news is so often missing the mark, but this is a real situation, certainly.

 

[alchemize]

I wonder who will come out on top...if Georgia has modernized it's forces at all it should pwn Russia...

edit: Nope, it's old tech vs. old tech. From Wikipedia:

Georgia aircraft:
22 Su-25KM
13 Su-25UB
12 MiG-25
4 Su-24
18 MiG-21
11 L-39
2 L-29
1 Mi-35 "Hind"
19 Mi-24-P "Hind"
21 Mi-24-V "Hind"
18 Mil Mi-14
16 Mi-8 "Hip"
6 Bell-212
40 UH-1H
2 Mil Mi-2

Russia aircraft - can't find a easily pastable source, but its 10-1 at least.

 

[KIRBYEE]

.

 

[Skyclad1uhm1]

Thread Merge

Fern
AnandTech P&N Moderator


BBC News article

Russian tanks are moving towards the capital of Georgia's separatist region of South Ossetia, which has been under heavy bombardment from Georgian forces.

Georgian President Mikhail Saakasvili said 150 Russian tanks and other vehicles had entered South Ossetia.

Georgia is reported to have said any involvement of Russian forces in the conflict will result in a state of war between the two countries.

Russia says it is sending reinforcements to support peacekeepers.

Reports from Georgia claim Russian jets have attacked an airport near Tbilisi.

Nato, the US and the EU have all called for an immediate end to hostilities.

At least 15 civilians are reported dead, as well as several Russian peacekeepers based in Tskhinvali.

Many South Ossetians have Russian passports, so the question is whether Georgia will stop attacking them or whether a war indeed will break out. Not likely that Russia will give up on them.

 

[alchemize]

R

 

[Dari]

Things aren't that simple. Abkhazia and South Ossetia are ethnically different from other Georgians.The two breakaway regions were supposed to be independent states when Stalin and Beria (his secret police chief) were in power. But since both men were from Georgia (Beria from Abkhazia), they denied the regions from being states, integrating them into Georgia proper. After the Soviet Union fell, the two states fought for independence and Russia sent in "peacekeepers." At times it can seem like Russia is playing both sides. But the Georgian President has made things far worse by trying to play hardball with these regions. This issue is no different than Chechnya or Tibet, except there's a powerful outsider (Russia) that can keep fanning the flames at its discretion.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Dari
Things aren't that simple. Abkhazia and South Ossetia are ethnically different from other Georgians.The two breakaway regions were supposed to be independent states when Stalin and Beria (his secret police chief) were in power. But since both men were from Georgia (Beria from Abkhazia), they denied the regions from being states, integrating them into Georgia proper. After the Soviet Union fell, the two states fought for independence and Russia sent in "peacekeepers." At times it can seem like Russia is playing both sides. But the Georgian President has made things far worse by trying to play hardball with these regions. This issue is no different than Chechnya or Tibet, except there's a powerful outsider (Russia) that can keep fanning the flames at its discretion.

If I'm not mistaken the Russians have been violating Georgian airspace for a while and even shot down a drone recently. Of course the Russians denied this but the video the Georgians released was pretty damning (clearly showing a Mig-29).

I have to wonder if this is a ploy to keep Georgia out of NATO since their due to be invited to join this year.

 

[StageLeft]

Sky it's like the top thread right now, this is a bad, naughty repost

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: alchemize
I wonder who will come out on top...if Georgia has modernized it's forces at all it should pwn Russia...

edit: Nope, it's old tech vs. old tech. From Wikipedia:

Georgia aircraft:
22 Su-25KM
13 Su-25UB
12 MiG-25
4 Su-24
18 MiG-21
11 L-39
2 L-29
1 Mi-35 "Hind"
19 Mi-24-P "Hind"
21 Mi-24-V "Hind"
18 Mil Mi-14
16 Mi-8 "Hip"
6 Bell-212
40 UH-1H
2 Mil Mi-2

Russia aircraft - can't find a easily pastable source, but its 10-1 at least.

If it's anything like other nation's struggled militaries I would guess that half that airforce is not even airworthy and then half again of what is is used for training (thinking about Canada's air force, for example, which barely exists).

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: alchemize
I wonder who will come out on top...if Georgia has modernized it's forces at all it should pwn Russia...

edit: Nope, it's old tech vs. old tech. From Wikipedia:

Georgia aircraft:
22 Su-25KM
13 Su-25UB
12 MiG-25
4 Su-24
18 MiG-21
11 L-39
2 L-29
1 Mi-35 "Hind"
19 Mi-24-P "Hind"
21 Mi-24-V "Hind"
18 Mil Mi-14
16 Mi-8 "Hip"
6 Bell-212
40 UH-1H
2 Mil Mi-2

Russia aircraft - can't find a easily pastable source, but its 10-1 at least.

If it's anything like other nation's struggled militaries I would guess that half that airforce is not even airworthy and then half again of what is is used for training (thinking about Canada's air force, for example, which barely exists).

Well some of their SAMs seem to work so that's something at least.

Canada doesn't have to worry with the US right next door and they know it. Deferring military hardware purchases is an easy choice since in a real war the US will cover their ass.

 

[Skyclad1uhm1]

Ah, my built-in filter blocks the sight of any topics containing 'Olympics', that's why I failed to notice it

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Dari
Things aren't that simple. Abkhazia and South Ossetia are ethnically different from other Georgians.The two breakaway regions were supposed to be independent states when Stalin and Beria (his secret police chief) were in power. But since both men were from Georgia (Beria from Abkhazia), they denied the regions from being states, integrating them into Georgia proper. After the Soviet Union fell, the two states fought for independence and Russia sent in "peacekeepers." At times it can seem like Russia is playing both sides. But the Georgian President has made things far worse by trying to play hardball with these regions. This issue is no different than Chechnya or Tibet, except there's a powerful outsider (Russia) that can keep fanning the flames at its discretion.

If I'm not mistaken the Russians have been violating Georgian airspace for a while and even shot down a drone recently. Of course the Russians denied this but the video the Georgians released was pretty damning (clearly showing a Mig-29).

I have to wonder if this is a ploy to keep Georgia out of NATO since their due to be invited to join this year.

Does that really matter? Do you think Western nations, America included, are going to fight and die over what is essentially a local issue, inspite of the international borders? The rule of law may take precedent in our part of the world, but history is a major factor in others.

EDIT: If I was George Bush I wouldn't let Georgia in for the simple fact that they have this ongoing conflict. It needs to be resolved first. Why inherit such a huge problem?

 

[Skyclad1uhm1]

Russia claims reports of ethnic cleansing are coming from South Ossetia, and as many there are Russians Russia goes there to 'help'. That's the official explanation at least.

 

[Lemon law]

I saw a link on yahoo that two Russians planes have been shot down so that can add to the war drums.

 

[StageLeft]

EDIT: If I was George Bush I wouldn't let Georgia in for the simple fact that they have this ongoing conflict. It needs to be resolved first. Why inherit such a huge problem?

Exactly, that's the last thing we need. I'm glad they're not in NATO yet.

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

EDIT: If I was George Bush I wouldn't let Georgia in for the simple fact that they have this ongoing conflict. It needs to be resolved first. Why inherit such a huge problem?

Exactly, that's the last thing we need. I'm glad they're not in NATO yet.

It's probably because of that conflict that they've applied.

Shit man. When was the last time two developed nations were at war? Although, I'm not sure how developed Georgia is. For that matter, I'm not sure how developed Russia is.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Dari
Things aren't that simple. Abkhazia and South Ossetia are ethnically different from other Georgians.The two breakaway regions were supposed to be independent states when Stalin and Beria (his secret police chief) were in power. But since both men were from Georgia (Beria from Abkhazia), they denied the regions from being states, integrating them into Georgia proper. After the Soviet Union fell, the two states fought for independence and Russia sent in "peacekeepers." At times it can seem like Russia is playing both sides. But the Georgian President has made things far worse by trying to play hardball with these regions. This issue is no different than Chechnya or Tibet, except there's a powerful outsider (Russia) that can keep fanning the flames at its discretion.

If I'm not mistaken the Russians have been violating Georgian airspace for a while and even shot down a drone recently. Of course the Russians denied this but the video the Georgians released was pretty damning (clearly showing a Mig-29).

I have to wonder if this is a ploy to keep Georgia out of NATO since their due to be invited to join this year.

Does that really matter? Do you think Western nations, America included, are going to fight and die over what is essentially a local issue, inspite of the international borders? The rule of law may take precedent in our part of the world, but history is a major factor in others.

EDIT: If I was George Bush I wouldn't let Georgia in for the simple fact that they have this ongoing conflict. It needs to be resolved first. Why inherit such a huge problem?

Their impending NATO membership is probably the reason the Russians have spun up just now. Of course Georgia cannot be offered membership while they are involved in an ongoing conflict.

One thing we could do is fast track Ukrainian membership. The Russians can't do the same to them as the Ukrainian Military would not be a pushover. There is also the lingering suspicion on the part of the Russians that the Ukrainians didn't necessarily turn over all of the nukes they left there after the USSR broke up.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Dari
Things aren't that simple. Abkhazia and South Ossetia are ethnically different from other Georgians.The two breakaway regions were supposed to be independent states when Stalin and Beria (his secret police chief) were in power. But since both men were from Georgia (Beria from Abkhazia), they denied the regions from being states, integrating them into Georgia proper. After the Soviet Union fell, the two states fought for independence and Russia sent in "peacekeepers." At times it can seem like Russia is playing both sides. But the Georgian President has made things far worse by trying to play hardball with these regions. This issue is no different than Chechnya or Tibet, except there's a powerful outsider (Russia) that can keep fanning the flames at its discretion.

If I'm not mistaken the Russians have been violating Georgian airspace for a while and even shot down a drone recently. Of course the Russians denied this but the video the Georgians released was pretty damning (clearly showing a Mig-29).

I have to wonder if this is a ploy to keep Georgia out of NATO since their due to be invited to join this year.

Does that really matter? Do you think Western nations, America included, are going to fight and die over what is essentially a local issue, inspite of the international borders? The rule of law may take precedent in our part of the world, but history is a major factor in others.

EDIT: If I was George Bush I wouldn't let Georgia in for the simple fact that they have this ongoing conflict. It needs to be resolved first. Why inherit such a huge problem?

Their impending NATO membership is probably the reason the Russians have spun up just now. Of course Georgia cannot be offered membership while they are involved in an ongoing conflict.

One thing we could do is fast track Ukrainian membership. The Russians can't do the same to them as the Ukrainian Military would not be a pushover.

Russia also has some land in the Ukraine, iirc. Guys, let's remember this is the same Russia that invented the Doomsday bomb, a bomb that could affect the whole earth. Their concern today may be economic but I wouldn't put it past them to do similar damage to the economies of Europe, who are heavily dependent on Russian oil and gas. Germany is right in that we need to engage Russia rather than try to isolate them.

These guys may not be as powerful as they once were but they are not stupid. These former Soviet republics will be our undoing when they provoke an angry Russia into helping Iran, islamic terrorists, or any other entity hostile to American or European interests.

 

[ayabe]

well shit.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Dari
Things aren't that simple. Abkhazia and South Ossetia are ethnically different from other Georgians.The two breakaway regions were supposed to be independent states when Stalin and Beria (his secret police chief) were in power. But since both men were from Georgia (Beria from Abkhazia), they denied the regions from being states, integrating them into Georgia proper. After the Soviet Union fell, the two states fought for independence and Russia sent in "peacekeepers." At times it can seem like Russia is playing both sides. But the Georgian President has made things far worse by trying to play hardball with these regions. This issue is no different than Chechnya or Tibet, except there's a powerful outsider (Russia) that can keep fanning the flames at its discretion.

If I'm not mistaken the Russians have been violating Georgian airspace for a while and even shot down a drone recently. Of course the Russians denied this but the video the Georgians released was pretty damning (clearly showing a Mig-29).

I have to wonder if this is a ploy to keep Georgia out of NATO since their due to be invited to join this year.

Does that really matter? Do you think Western nations, America included, are going to fight and die over what is essentially a local issue, inspite of the international borders? The rule of law may take precedent in our part of the world, but history is a major factor in others.

EDIT: If I was George Bush I wouldn't let Georgia in for the simple fact that they have this ongoing conflict. It needs to be resolved first. Why inherit such a huge problem?

Their impending NATO membership is probably the reason the Russians have spun up just now. Of course Georgia cannot be offered membership while they are involved in an ongoing conflict.

One thing we could do is fast track Ukrainian membership. The Russians can't do the same to them as the Ukrainian Military would not be a pushover.

Russia also has some land in the Ukraine, iirc. Guys, let's remember this is the same Russia that invented the Doomsday bomb, a bomb that could affect the whole earth. Their concern today may be economic but I wouldn't put it past them to do similar damage to the economies of Europe, who are heavily dependent on Russian oil and gas. Germany is right in that we need to engage Russia rather than try to isolate them.

These guys may not be as powerful as they once were but they are not stupid. These former Soviet republics will be our undoing when they provoke an angry Russia into helping Iran, islamic terrorists, or any other entity hostile to American or European interests.

I think the people the Soviets oppressed for 50 years should get to make that decision for themselves. After being crushed under Russia's sphere of influence for so long nobody can blame them for actively seeking EU and NATO membership.

The USSR lost the cold war and consequently fell apart. They need to adjust to the new reality that their smaller nations whom they could muscle into obedience at a whim don't have to take it anymore and won't.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Dari
Things aren't that simple. Abkhazia and South Ossetia are ethnically different from other Georgians.The two breakaway regions were supposed to be independent states when Stalin and Beria (his secret police chief) were in power. But since both men were from Georgia (Beria from Abkhazia), they denied the regions from being states, integrating them into Georgia proper. After the Soviet Union fell, the two states fought for independence and Russia sent in "peacekeepers." At times it can seem like Russia is playing both sides. But the Georgian President has made things far worse by trying to play hardball with these regions. This issue is no different than Chechnya or Tibet, except there's a powerful outsider (Russia) that can keep fanning the flames at its discretion.

If I'm not mistaken the Russians have been violating Georgian airspace for a while and even shot down a drone recently. Of course the Russians denied this but the video the Georgians released was pretty damning (clearly showing a Mig-29).

I have to wonder if this is a ploy to keep Georgia out of NATO since their due to be invited to join this year.

Does that really matter? Do you think Western nations, America included, are going to fight and die over what is essentially a local issue, inspite of the international borders? The rule of law may take precedent in our part of the world, but history is a major factor in others.

EDIT: If I was George Bush I wouldn't let Georgia in for the simple fact that they have this ongoing conflict. It needs to be resolved first. Why inherit such a huge problem?

Their impending NATO membership is probably the reason the Russians have spun up just now. Of course Georgia cannot be offered membership while they are involved in an ongoing conflict.

One thing we could do is fast track Ukrainian membership. The Russians can't do the same to them as the Ukrainian Military would not be a pushover.

Russia also has some land in the Ukraine, iirc. Guys, let's remember this is the same Russia that invented the Doomsday bomb, a bomb that could affect the whole earth. Their concern today may be economic but I wouldn't put it past them to do similar damage to the economies of Europe, who are heavily dependent on Russian oil and gas. Germany is right in that we need to engage Russia rather than try to isolate them.

These guys may not be as powerful as they once were but they are not stupid. These former Soviet republics will be our undoing when they provoke an angry Russia into helping Iran, islamic terrorists, or any other entity hostile to American or European interests.

I think the people the Soviets oppressed for 50 years should get to make that decision for themselves. After being crushed under Russia's sphere of influence for so long nobody can blame them for actively seeking EU and NATO membership.

The USSR lost the cold war and consequently fell apart. They need to adjust to the new reality that their smaller nations whom they could muscle into obedience at a whim don't have to take it anymore and won't.

Their history with Russia is intertwined (sic?) so I don't think letting go is all that easy for some, Ukraine especially. They can do as they wish, but so can America and Europe. They have their interests and we have ours. Sometimes they are the same, sometimes they're not.

 

[keird]

Dunno if the link will work, but U.S. troops were in Georgia as of 30-Jul-08 while conducting 'Immediate Response 2008'.

Search for image 82130623 at gettyimages.com

 

[CycloWizard]

Too bad. The ancient olympic games were a time of world peace (at least, peace for all the nations involved). Wars would go on hold while the athletes traveled to and from the games and while the competition was going on. The days of real civilization seem to have ended a couple thousand years ago though and we can't maintain the same standard today.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: alchemize
I wonder who will come out on top...if Georgia has modernized it's forces at all it should pwn Russia...

edit: Nope, it's old tech vs. old tech. From Wikipedia:

Georgia aircraft:
40 UH-1H
....snip...
2 Mil Mi-2

Russia aircraft - can't find a easily pastable source, but its 10-1 at least.

You don't need to conduct any in-depth analysis to figure out if a small, poor, sparsely populated country could 'pwn' a major world power.