22 year old ex-convict empties AK-47 into 12 year old

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Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
The Princeof Wands does know all that much about firearms if he says " the weapon is irrelevant because absolutely any semi-auto could do basically the same thing, and any shotgun would have had the same end result, and probably any old style revolver for that matter. "

Which is basically incorrect in most cases. Depending on the construction of the walls and doors, a shot gun would have lost most of its energy punching a hole through the walls and doors, revolver bullets are are made of soft lead, would have greatly expanded in diameter in the process of penetration of walls or doors, and even large magnum pistols contain only a fraction of the energy packed by a AK-47 bullet. Certain non assault rifle legitimate hunting high powered rifles can develop more muzzle energy, but they are usually only loaded with expanding type bullets, are usually bolt action, and have magazines seldom containing more than five rounds.

And due to the wonders of military surplus, there are ready supplies of non expanding military ammunition in case lots of a 1000 that can go through walls and doors without losing much energy. In short, this AK-47 was not your typical firearm, it was ideally suited for what happened here, its worthless and illegal as a hunting rifle, but almost an accident waiting to happen when placed in the hands of a nut. This entire incident is a compelling reason to ban ALL weapons of that type. They belong in military arsenals under lock and key, not in the hands of the general public. Even if the owner is "responsible", too often the responsible owner gets robbed and they wind up in the hands of criminals.
 

benzylic

Golden Member
Jun 12, 2006
1,547
1
0
Yeah because banning all guns will definitely keep Tyrell the gansta from getting one.
 

MotF Bane

No Lifer
Dec 22, 2006
60,865
10
0
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
This is why guns should be banned.

No. That wouldn't change a criminal getting his hands on an already highly restricted weapon.
 

Stoneburner

Diamond Member
May 29, 2003
3,491
0
76
This isn't about banning guns so much as it is doing SOMETHING to keep guns away from ABSOLUTE FUCKIN MORONS.

Really, can you be against banning morons from having guns? Somebody's kid is dead because AN ABSOLUTE MORON was allowed to have a gun.
 

Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
34,547
651
126
Originally posted by: Stoneburner
This isn't about banning guns so much as it is doing SOMETHING to keep guns away from ABSOLUTE FUCKIN MORONS.

Really, can you be against banning morons from having guns? Somebody's kid is dead because AN ABSOLUTE MORON was allowed to have a gun.

So, is it a case of stronger gun laws or developing some means to reduce the number of illegal guns?
 

Avalon

Diamond Member
Jul 16, 2001
7,567
152
106
Sounds like the guy was paranoid of someone coming to get him for something he did. The chick running away with money and his refusal to explain that are pretty big indicators.

What a terrible crime
 

Atheus

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2005
7,313
2
0
Originally posted by: between
this is what you get when citizens are able to own guns. why does everyone act so surprised?

Are you even allowed to think like that in America? I thought you got locked in a dark room and pelted with rotten food until you agree to swear alliegence to George Bush with your hand on an antique shotgun shaped like a dick.
 

mugs

Lifer
Apr 29, 2003
48,924
45
91
Originally posted by: between
this is what you get when citizens are able to own guns. why does everyone act so surprised?

Who is acting surprised? No one is surprised when a criminal who illegally owns a gun uses it to commit a crime.

Originally posted by: Throckmorton
So what is the legitimate reason for owning a full auto assault weapon?

Is there some other source that says this was an automatic weapon?

You don't need a reason to grant a right, you need a reason to take a right away.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Originally posted by: Stoneburner
This isn't about banning guns so much as it is doing SOMETHING to keep guns away from ABSOLUTE FUCKIN MORONS.

Really, can you be against banning morons from having guns? Somebody's kid is dead because AN ABSOLUTE MORON was allowed to have a gun.

So, is it a case of stronger gun laws or developing some means to reduce the number of illegal guns?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, this is not about banning all guns, this is about banning one particular type gun that is legitimately useless, but makes crimes of this nature into crimes of this nature on steroids. If the nut in question used any other type of firearm, the probability of this resulting in a single death would have been greatly lower. Worse yet, if the nut in question would have tried to flee, he could have been in a position of rapid fire endangering everyone in a mile or better radius. And able to fire perhaps another thousand rounds or better before he was subdued, outgunning the police in the process.

A shotgun or a pistol would reduce that effective kill radius to no more than a hundred yards, and while even a legitimate hunting high power rifle would preserve the effective danger radius, it would not be able to match the assault rifles rate of fire, magazine size, and few would be able to afford the buy enough ammunition in those large lot sizes.

As a legitimate firearms owner and a hunter, I do know a thing or two about firearms. I would never ever consider wasting a penny on the purchase of an assault weapon, and I think the NRA is my greatest enemy in terms of preserving my rights to own firearms. I despise the NRA as the lobbying monstrosity they have become, as far as I am concerned, champions of criminals, thugs, the criminally insane, as they spread a message of uncompromising paranoia. The NRA has long gone past being anything but the problem.
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,512
21
81
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Certain non assault rifle legitimate hunting high powered rifles can develop more muzzle energy, but they are usually only loaded with expanding type bullets, are usually bolt action, and have magazines seldom containing more than five rounds.

The Ruger Mini-14 is available in the same calibre as the AK-47 (7.62x39) as well as being available in .223 Remington and 6.8mm Remington SPC (the last being more powerful than either of the first). It is sold in large quantities as a ranch rifle and is tremendously useful against small game (i.e. coyote and smaller). It is available from the factory with 5, 20, and 30 round magazines and is not classified under any system as an assault weapon.

Originally posted by: Lemon law
And due to the wonders of military surplus, there are ready supplies of non expanding military ammunition in case lots of a 1000 that can go through walls and doors without losing much energy. In short, this AK-47 was not your typical firearm, it was ideally suited for what happened here, its worthless and illegal as a hunting rifle, but almost an accident waiting to happen when placed in the hands of a nut. This entire incident is a compelling reason to ban ALL weapons of that type. They belong in military arsenals under lock and key, not in the hands of the general public. Even if the owner is "responsible", too often the responsible owner gets robbed and they wind up in the hands of criminals.

Expanding ammunition can go through walls and doors without losing much energy as well. In fact, expanding handgun bullets can go through as many as 6 walls before losing lethal energy and those are significantly less powerful than any rifle bullet. Additionally, non-expanding ammunition can be purchased legally brand new. Finally, the Geneva convention bans the use of expanding ammunition in combat. If it were allowed, expanding ammunition would be preferred by the military.

The AK-47 is not "worthless and illegal as a hunting rifle", as there are many widely-available loadings for its calibre with expanding bullets that are legal for hunting. In fact, a person can easily buy non-expanding bullets for other much more powerful cartridges such as the 30-30, the .308 Winchester, and the .30-06.

ZV
 

Duwelon

Golden Member
Nov 3, 2004
1,058
0
0
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
This is why guns should be banned.

Yeah, because it's a fact of life that every law gets obeyed, so outlawing all guns would immediately disarm all the crooks too. /sarcasm.

Look everywhere in American society where guns have been banned and you'll find more trajedy than ever before. Kids used to go to school with a gun hanging on a rack in the car and yet violence has only increased as laws got more strict.

Outlawing guns would go against the constitution and give the government and crooks wa too much power.
 

mugs

Lifer
Apr 29, 2003
48,924
45
91
Originally posted by: between
Originally posted by: venkman
It's FREAKIN' HALLOWEEN and he is SURPRISED by a knock on his DOOR? Is he pants on head retarded?

Maybe he was just really paranoid or mentally ill, as another poster has suggested

If he genuinely believed he was under attack, then his behaviour almost makes sense. he was defending himself.

Of course, if he only had a knife instead of a gun, he would have had to open the door and would have seen it was only a kid. the problem lies mostly with the easy availability of guns in America.

I can't help but compare this situation to that Texan nutcase who shot the burglar (of his neighbour's house) in the back. That guy wasn't even charged with manslaughter let alone murder... many people here seemed to be happy with that outcome. But let's be honest, what's more heinous - shooting someone in the back (!), or shooting through a door because you are paranoid and think you are being attacked?

If he was paranoid, then the most heinous act was committed by the friends and relatives who did nothing to get him help and who did not take the gun away from him. This murder was not caused by the availability of guns, it was caused by the actions of human beings.
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,830
3
0
Originally posted by: mugs
Originally posted by: between
this is what you get when citizens are able to own guns. why does everyone act so surprised?

Who is acting surprised? No one is surprised when a criminal who illegally owns a gun uses it to commit a crime.

Originally posted by: Throckmorton
So what is the legitimate reason for owning a full auto assault weapon?

Is there some other source that says this was an automatic weapon?

You don't need a reason to grant a right, you need a reason to take a right away.

The reason to take away the "right" to own an assault weapon is cases like this. Any benefits outweigh the danger to other citizens. That's why making bombs in your house is illegal.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Zenervolt notes, " The AK-47 is not "worthless and illegal as a hunting rifle", as there are many widely-available loadings for its calibre with expanding bullets that are legal for hunting. In fact, a person can easily buy non-expanding bullets for other much more powerful cartridges such as the 30-30, the .308 Winchester, and the .30-06."

What we have here is a pretty short list of readily available hunting cartridges, but why the hell Zemervolt comes up with the 30-30 is a total mystery to me. The .308 Winchester is simply the commercial version of the standard US past round generation military round, which in turn replaced the 30-06 which was our standard military ordinance in WW1 and two. the main reason the 30-06 was replaced by the .308 Winchester was the fact the 30-06 is too long to be ideal for use in automatic weapons. As for the 30-30, its never been a standard military cartridge, so no ready supply of military surplus cheap ammunition exists. And while a hand loader can load bullets of any type into any round cartridge on the planet, I dare say I could purchase even armor piercing bullets military surplus dirt cheap for that AK-47 I would not buy or own.

Its the ready supply of very cheap ammunition, the high rate of fire, the large magazines, that make these idiot weapons of choice. Our current Ar-15 .223 cartridge is also a danger, they certainly lack the penetrating power of a 30-06, but they were the weapon of choice of the DC snipers. Easily lethal and accurate at 300 yards. But not very good at penetrating walls and doors. And absolutely illegal to use on even deer sized animals in almost all 50 States in the union.

Get a clue, these people are seldom firearms knowledgeable people, but when too much cheap ammunition meets available megafire power idiots , too many accidents are inevitable. Ban all assault weapons with magazine capacities over 5, criminalize the sale or manufacture or any larger magazine capacity, and restrict purchases of large lots of military surplus ammo, and the world will be in a better place.

As it is, I as blood thirsty hunter, I only want to assassinate Bambi, kill pheasants and Quail, and fair play, give Dan Quail a head start.

 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,512
21
81
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Zenervolt notes, " The AK-47 is not "worthless and illegal as a hunting rifle", as there are many widely-available loadings for its calibre with expanding bullets that are legal for hunting. In fact, a person can easily buy non-expanding bullets for other much more powerful cartridges such as the 30-30, the .308 Winchester, and the .30-06."

What we have here is a pretty short list of readily available hunting cartridges, but why the hell Zemervolt comes up with the 30-30 is a total mystery to me. The .308 Winchester is simply the commercial version of the standard US past round generation military round, which in turn replaced the 30-06 which was our standard military ordinance in WW1 and two. the main reason the 30-06 was replaced by the .308 Winchester was the fact the 30-06 is too long to be ideal for use in automatic weapons. As for the 30-30, its never been a standard military cartridge, so no ready supply of military surplus cheap ammunition exists. And while a hand loader can load bullets of any type into any round cartridge on the planet, I dare say I could purchase even armor piercing bullets military surplus dirt cheap for that AK-47 I would not buy or own.

So you dispute the fact that those loadings are widely available in almost every sporting-goods store in the country? Or are you simply throwing out an a ridiculous claim by claiming that, having named the most common hunting cartridges used today, the list is somehow "too short" to mean the ammunition is widely available?

The .308 is ballistically inferior to the .30-06 (the latter carrying more powder and a correspondingly higher muzzle energy) and was adopted for reduced recoil. Additionally, the .308, while similar to NATO ammunition, is loaded to much lower pressures and it is NOT safe to fire NATO surplus ammunition from a rifle chambered for .308 Win (you can safely fire .308 Win in a rifle chambered for NATO ammo, but NOT the reverse, which you seem to be claiming).

The fact that the 30-30 was never a military cartridge does not negate the fact that there are commercial loadings that use FMJ bullets and that these loadings are available at almost any sporting goods store.

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Its the ready supply of very cheap ammunition, the high rate of fire, the large magazines, that make these idiot weapons of choice. Our current Ar-15 .223 cartridge is also a danger, they certainly lack the penetrating power of a 30-06, but they were the weapon of choice of the DC snipers. Easily lethal and accurate at 300 yards. But not very good at penetrating walls and doors. And absolutely illegal to use on even deer sized animals in almost all 50 States in the union.

Again, you use a half-truth. The .223 military is illegal to use against deer because it is too weak to kill them quickly. In other words, it's illegal for hunting because it is unlikely to kill. You can't simultaneously call the ammunition "high-powered" and then claim this as support for your position.

The .223 in soft-point is absolutely legal for deer hunting, by the way, though the consensus is that its low lethality makes it more suited to coyotes and smaller game (where it is, again, legal).

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Get a clue, these people are seldom firearms knowledgeable people, but when too much cheap ammunition meets available megafire power idiots , too many accidents are inevitable. Ban all assault weapons with magazine capacities over 5, criminalize the sale or manufacture or any larger magazine capacity, and restrict purchases of large lots of military surplus ammo, and the world will be in a better place.

Yes. Of course. Make the responsible people pay for the sins of the irresponsible. By the same logic, let's ban V8 engines in cars. Too many accidents by mega-horsepower idiots are inevitable.

Your argument is all emotion and zero fact.

ZV
 

SagaLore

Elite Member
Dec 18, 2001
24,037
21
81
Originally posted by: DaveSimmons
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
No, just why most felons should be killed.

In Larry Niven's SF stories felons have their organs harvested so something good can be done with their wasted lives. We just need to solve tissue rejection problems and find cures for the felons' STDs (AIDS, hepatitus) and we can start up the program.

Another Larry Niven fan. The Ringworld series was fun, but most of his other books are awesome as well...
 

mugs

Lifer
Apr 29, 2003
48,924
45
91
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
The reason to take away the "right" to own an assault weapon is cases like this. Any benefits outweigh the danger to other citizens. That's why making bombs in your house is illegal.

So you're saying that law-abiding citizens should not have the right to own an "assault weapon" because of the actions of criminals?

For giggles, what is it about the AK-47 that you consider to be too dangerous for citizens to own? Which features are unacceptable to you?
 

Brian48

Diamond Member
Oct 15, 1999
3,410
0
0
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
So what is the legitimate reason for owning a full auto assault weapon?

Normal citizens cannot get them. Military, law enforcement, and class 3 licensee (usually security firms) are the only people allowed to possess full auto firearms. I'd say that's pretty darn legitimate.

 

Deadtrees

Platinum Member
Dec 31, 2002
2,351
0
0
Originally posted by: DaveSimmons
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
No, just why most felons should be killed.

In Larry Niven's SF stories felons have their organs harvested so something good can be done with their wasted lives. We just need to solve tissue rejection problems and find cures for the felons' STDs (AIDS, hepatitus) and we can start up the program.

No longer SF as China has been doing it for a while.
 
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