250GTS

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: error8

Originally posted by: Wreckage

AMD lost market share last quarter and is down below 1/3 of the market. The 4xxx series is basically a failure.

Do you even read your posts after you write them? This has no meaning whatsoever. 4XXX series have been one of the most successful and best selling generation of ATi cards.

and yet ATi has gained no market share?

- unless you count 1.1% gain in desktops as "best selling"

is it safe to say that the GTX275 is a rebadge of the GTX260 just as the 4890 is a rebadge of the 4870?

i guess it depends how you define "is"
:roll:

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: error8

Originally posted by: Wreckage

AMD lost market share last quarter and is down below 1/3 of the market. The 4xxx series is basically a failure.

Do you even read your posts after you write them? This has no meaning whatsoever. 4XXX series have been one of the most successful and best selling generation of ATi cards.

Originally posted by: MrK6

Originally posted by: WreckageAMD lost market share last quarter and is down below 1/3 of the market. The 4xxx series is basically a failure.

The same 4000 series that took tremendous marketshare away from NVIDIA at this time last year? How did you arrive at that conclusion? :Q

http://img.neoseeker.com/v_ima...rticleid=10596&image=1

They have barely 1/3 of the market. That's a failure. I won't even mention not getting the performance crown, the issues they had with heat at launch and how they missed the boat on physics.

Can either of you provide a link?

 

[evolucion8]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

http://img.neoseeker.com/v_ima...rticleid=10596&image=1

They have barely 1/3 of the market. That's a failure. I won't even mention not getting the performance crown, the issues they had with heat at launch and how they missed the boat on physics.

Can either of you provide a link?

Physics? LOLL, there's more DX10.1 tittles than GPU accelerated PhysX tittles. They may not have the performance crown but has the best performance/price ratio in the market. GTX200 architecture is based on the old and tired G92 architecture with no new features besides more stream processors. They missed the boat with DX10.1 support, inferior anti aliasing quality, incomplete VC-1 acceleration, heat issues with early 8800GT GPU's, broken mobile GPU's like the 8600/8400 that burns out after some usage because of the bump problems, no audio through HDMI, "non responding" driver issues with Vista and Windows 7.

It's quite a shame that nVidia with it's GT200 coudn't grab more than 4% of their market share and has a hard time to remain competitive with the ATi's two times smaller chip with 46% less transistors and cheaper to manufacture. The remaining nVidia's market share is based on the successful 8800/9800 cards and their low end cards like the 8600/8400 which grabs the majority of their market share, a chip that burns out loll

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: evolucion8


Physics? LOLL, there's more DX10.1 tittles than GPU accelerated PhysX tittles.

Here's a list of PhysX games.
http://www.nzone.com/object/nzone_physxgames_home.html

Find me a list of 10.1 that's longer than that.

They may not have the performance crown but has the best performance/price ratio in the market.

I'm asking for facts here not your opinion. I would say right now NVIDIA has them beat on price/performance.

inferior anti aliasing quality

NVIDIA has better AA with TrAA.
http://alienbabeltech.com/main/?p=3188&page=10

heat issues with early 8800GT GPU's,

So now you are going all the way back to the 9 series? Shall we discuss the 2xxx series from ATI?

It's quite a shame that nVidia with it's GT200 coudn't grab more than 4% of their market share and has a hard time to remain competitive with the ATi's two times smaller chip with 46% less transistors and cheaper to manufacture.

They have 67% of the market right now why is that so hard for you to understand?

Whatever, you never bring any facts to the discussion. This has nothing to do with the topic. So I will just let it go.

 

[evolucion8]

Originally posted by: Wreckage
Find me a list of 10.1 that's longer than that.

I meant GPU accelerated Physx which none of them are:

Cryostasis, Unreal 2007 two measly maps, Mirrors Edge, that's it? A pity, propietary technology locked into a single vendor will die, OpenCL is the future.

DX10.1

Assassin Creed, STALKER Clear Sky, Hawx, BattleForge, Stormrise, Far Cry 2, along with other titles which will use the Unigine engine which supports DX10.1

I'm asking for facts here not your opinion. I would say right now NVIDIA

You are asking nothing, just baiting and trolling across the forums spreading misinformation and cheap nVidia marketing propaganda.

I'm asking for facts here not your opinion. I would say right now NVIDIA has them beat on price/performance.

Yeah, like the over $300 GTX 285 which the HD 4850X2 which cost 250 outperforms, or about the HD 4890 overclocked edition which also matches it, and cost less.

NVIDIA has better AA with TrAA.

Keep dreaming, even BFG10K with it's article proved that the ATI's 24x Edge Detect is unbeatable in edge anti aliasing quality that also works on OpenGL, unlike nVidia's solution

Summary - ATi Advantages

24xAA is the best pure edge AA mode in consumer space.
AAA functions in OpenGL.
Very fast and efficient 8xMSAA relative to hardware specs.

Source: http://alienbabeltech.com/main/?p=3188&page=10

Isn't like all games are made of Alpha textures.

They have 67% of the market right now why is that so hard for you to understand?

Whatever, you never bring any facts to the discussion.

Yeah whatever, only 4% of that market share belongs to the GT200, the rest are from lowly 8400/8600 that burns out hehe, and the rest comes from the 9800/GTS250 sales, but whatever, you never bring any facts to the discussion.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Originally posted by: dguy6789
I'll humor us all some more.

9800GTX+ vs GTS 250

Different Name: Check
Different GPU Clock: ?
Different Memory Clock: ?
Different Shader Clock: ?
Different Memory Bandwidth: ?
Different Memory Bit Width: ?
Different Flops: ?
Different Pixel Fillrate: ?
Different Texture Fillrate: ?
Different Power Consumption: Check
Different Benchmark Performance: ?
Different Game Performance: ?

HD 4870 vs HD 4890

Different Name: Check
Different GPU Clock: Check
Different Memory Clock: Check
Different Shader Clock: n/a (Or if you wanted to get picky, check because the RV770 shader clock is the same as the GPU clock)
Different Memory Bandwidth: Check
Different Memory Bit Width: ?
Different Flops: Check
Different Pixel Fillrate: Check
Different Texture Fillrate: Check
Different Power Consumption: Check
Different Benchmark Performance: Check
Different Game Performance: Check

And for my last magic trick, I give you these two links: Link 1 Link 2

dguy6789, I've posted the XFX and also a couple EVGA cards that are identical yet named different on page one of this thread. But no matter what the Nvidia guys will not acknowledge them. Certain people will just ignore examples of rebadging you can buy right now, same exact cards that come in different boxes with different stickers on the cooler, and continue to argue things that have no relevance to the rebadging discussion, like 48x0 market share or Physx to try and change the focus point of this discussion. Just your typical trolling.

 

[MrK6]

Originally posted by: evolucion8

Originally posted by: Wreckage
Find me a list of 10.1 that's longer than that.

I meant GPU accelerated Physx which none of them are:

Cryostasis, Unreal 2007 two measly maps, Mirrors Edge, that's it? A pity, propietary technology locked into a single vendor will die, OpenCL is the future.

DX10.1

Assassin Creed, STALKER Clear Sky, Hawx, BattleForge, Stormrise, Far Cry 2, along with other titles which will use the Unigine engine which supports DX10.1

I'm asking for facts here not your opinion. I would say right now NVIDIA

You are asking nothing, just baiting and trolling across the forums spreading misinformation and cheap nVidia marketing propaganda.

I'm asking for facts here not your opinion. I would say right now NVIDIA has them beat on price/performance.

Yeah, like the over $300 GTX 285 which the HD 4850X2 which cost 250 outperforms, or about the HD 4890 overclocked edition which also matches it, and cost less.

NVIDIA has better AA with TrAA.

Keep dreaming, even BFG10K with it's article proved that the ATI's 24x Edge Detect is unbeatable in edge anti aliasing quality that also works on OpenGL, unlike nVidia's solution

Summary - ATi Advantages

24xAA is the best pure edge AA mode in consumer space.
AAA functions in OpenGL.
Very fast and efficient 8xMSAA relative to hardware specs.

Source: http://alienbabeltech.com/main/?p=3188&page=10

Isn't like all games are made of Alpha textures.

They have 67% of the market right now why is that so hard for you to understand?

Whatever, you never bring any facts to the discussion.

Yeah whatever, only 4% of that market share belongs to the GT200, the rest are from lowly 8400/8600 that burns out hehe, and the rest comes from the 9800/GTS250 sales, but whatever, you never bring any facts to the discussion.

Excellent post :thumbsup: someone needs to call it like is against the brides of NVIDIA. Both card companies make good products, but spreading misinformation and FUD about either is not only pathetic but also a disservice to the community. People come here to learn, not to be fooled.

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: error8

Originally posted by: Wreckage

AMD lost market share last quarter and is down below 1/3 of the market. The 4xxx series is basically a failure.

Do you even read your posts after you write them? This has no meaning whatsoever. 4XXX series have been one of the most successful and best selling generation of ATi cards.

Originally posted by: MrK6

Originally posted by: WreckageAMD lost market share last quarter and is down below 1/3 of the market. The 4xxx series is basically a failure.

The same 4000 series that took tremendous marketshare away from NVIDIA at this time last year? How did you arrive at that conclusion? :Q

http://img.neoseeker.com/v_ima...rticleid=10596I=1

They have barely 1/3 of the market. That's a failure. I won't even mention not getting the performance crown, the issues they had with heat at launch and how they missed the boat on physics.

Can either of you provide a link?

http://news.softpedia.com/news...ed-Sharply-97370.shtml
http://news.softpedia.com/news...rom-NVIDIA-97704.shtml

Three seconds of Googling^^

Honestly, sometimes people just make stuff up on this forum. NVIDIA CARDS GIVE AIDS LOL!!!1!!! ATI ENSLAVES CHILDREN!!1!!!

It's a video card company, go outside.

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: MrK6

http://news.softpedia.com/news...ed-Sharply-97370.shtml
http://news.softpedia.com/news...rom-NVIDIA-97704.shtml

Three seconds of Googling^^

Honestly, sometimes people just make stuff up on this forum. NVIDIA CARDS GIVE AIDS LOL!!!1!!! ATI ENSLAVES CHILDREN!!1!!!

It's a video card company, go outside.

Did you read the articles?

They went from 35% to 40%. You call that "tremendous"?

Now they are down to 33%

So they temporarily gained 5%. I really don't see how that's a success.

Whatever this is way off topic. Continue if you must, I'm out of this thread.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: MrK6

http://news.softpedia.com/news...ed-Sharply-97370.shtml
http://news.softpedia.com/news...rom-NVIDIA-97704.shtml

Three seconds of Googling^^

Honestly, sometimes people just make stuff up on this forum. NVIDIA CARDS GIVE AIDS LOL!!!1!!! ATI ENSLAVES CHILDREN!!1!!!

It's a video card company, go outside.

Did you read the articles?

They went from 35% to 40%. You call that "tremendous"?

Now they are down to 33%

So they temporarily gained 5%. I really don't see how that's a success.

What is the importance of this? Other than if you were a stockholder?

This thread has gotten beyond dumb. Should be locked anytime now.

 

[SSChevy2001]

Originally posted by: Wreckage
A 4890 is a rebadge of a 4870 which is a rebadge of a 4850. :roll:

Well try flashing a 4870 or a 4850 into a 4890, because a 9800GTX+ can be flaahed into GTS250.
http://www.cpu3d.com/article/7...-250/introduction.html

AMD lost market share last quarter and is down below 1/3 of the market. The 4xxx series is basically a failure.

I'm not going to go into market share, but something your forgeting is ATi GPUs are dominating in current consoles compared to Nvidia. 81M vs 22.5M
http://www.vgchartz.com/

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: SSChevy2001

Originally posted by: Wreckage
A 4890 is a rebadge of a 4870 which is a rebadge of a 4850. :roll:

Well try flashing a 4870 or a 4850 into a 4890, because a 9800GTX+ can be flaahed into GTS250.
http://www.cpu3d.com/article/7...-250/introduction.html

AMD lost market share last quarter and is down below 1/3 of the market. The 4xxx series is basically a failure.

I'm not going to go into market share, but something your forgeting is ATi GPUs are dominating in current consoles compared to Nvidia. 81M vs 22.5M
http://www.vgchartz.com/

It would seem it's just as important to you as it is Wreckage. Peas in a pod?
Could all of you please knock this crap off? I'm dry heaving here. :Q

 

[ArchAngel777]

Just wanted to say that my GTS250 (did I get it right Toyota?) is still going strong in my HTPC box. I am enjoying the card immensely! TDU runs great, GRID runs great... Of course, 4XAA and Transparency Super Sampling enabled.

 

[dguy6789]

Originally posted by: Azn

Originally posted by: dguy6789
snip

By your definition these pre-overclocked cards are different chips because it uses higher clocks. :roll:

Pre overclocked cards provide a different gaming experience and different benchmark scores do they not? I suppose next you could tell me that a stock Honda one would buy and one that has had its performance characteristics heavily modified are still basically the same car.

Originally posted by: SlowSpyder

Originally posted by: dguy6789
snip

dguy6789, I've posted the XFX and also a couple EVGA cards that are identical yet named different on page one of this thread. But no matter what the Nvidia guys will not acknowledge them. Certain people will just ignore examples of rebadging you can buy right now, same exact cards that come in different boxes with different stickers on the cooler, and continue to argue things that have no relevance to the rebadging discussion, like 48x0 market share or Physx to try and change the focus point of this discussion. Just your typical trolling.

I'm aware

 

[jacetin]

Heres my experience from having swapped between a msi hd4770(reference)->his hd4850 512mb(non-ref)->galaxy gts250 512mb(non-ref)->msi hd4670->hopefully hd 4770 next.

I'm in a similar position as the op, picking out a new htpc card and want the 4770 but can't find it in stock. in the mean time, I've tested the cards listed above and here is my research and real world observations from a HTPC standpoint.

1. GTS250 is not a 9800gtx+. More efficient PCB design, more mature 55nm process, lower gpu voltage, down clocking when idle = better lower idle consumption than the reference 4830, 4850, and 4770. Cons - 2d downclock isn't implemented on some non-reference designs (like the galaxy i bought). not as efficient at load as the 4770.

2. his 4850 - I was hoping this non reference design would be a good htpc card (since it was shorter and had a less complex power circuitry) but it does not downclock at idle. What a disappointment. Seems to be more efficient than the reference design at load however. An interesting card is the gigabyte 4850 multicore. Software adjustable gpu/mem voltage and it downclocks at idle. With some tweaking, that could be a very powerful and efficient htpc card (but i dont have the cash to test that theory).

3. MSI 4670 (.95v/1.15v) idle/load - In the end, I went back to my old card which is the reference 4670. 93 watts system power consumption at idle vs. 125+ watts (i forgot the exact numbers) on the galaxy gts250 and his 4850. ~135 watts playing left 4 dead on the 4670 vs 190+ (again, dont remember exact) on the 4850, even more on the gts 250.

My recommendations for HTPC.
1. Buy a recently manufactured card regardless of model. Mature manufacturing process = better efficiency, lower voltages.
2. Buy reference or make sure the non-reference downclocks at idle.
3. Buy a card where you can tweak the voltage, fan, and clock settings. Most cards offer this through bios adjustments. Some special cards with volterra or gamer hud regulators (like the gigabyte 4850 multicore) can do this in software which makes tweaking them even easier. Beware of non-reference cards that can't be adjusted. Running at lower volts = huge power/heat savings (especially at load). I speculate the majority of the increase in power consumption between the 4830vs4850 is the higher gpu and memory voltage needed to run at 4850 speeds.
4. Keep your card/system as cool as possible. All else equal, a cooler video card/system will be more power efficient.
5. GDDR3 > GDDR5 unless you need the bandwidth. No card with GDDR5 can downclock the memory at idle (as far as I know). From a HTPC standpoint, a 4870 runs 30+watts hotter at idle because the gddr5 doesn't downclock. You can manually force it to downclock but it will result in a flicker everytime the clock is changed.
6. Don't buy more powerful than you need. For example: The most graphically intense game I currently play is left 4 dead which runs at max settings 1920x1200 on my 4670. Buying a 4870 would increase my frames even further but I won't notice the difference in real world gameplay. But it will probably increase my system power consumption at load by 100+ watts.


What card I recommend:
Sapphire 4830 - From what I know, this card automatically downclocks at idle. The voltage can be adjusted as low as ~.9v. Improved pcb design. More mature 55nm process. I speculate you can lower the 3d load voltages and obtain efficiency comparable to that of a 4670. cons - unnecessarily powerful if you dont need the speed.

hd 4770 - with gddr5 and 40nm, best efficiency period. As 40nm matures, these cards will become even more efficient. cons- high idle consumption due to gddr5 that cant downclock at idle (and leaky 1st generation 40nm?). poor availability. incompatible with popular passive coolers like the s1/s2. Not as cost effective after recent ati price cuts.

*power consumption measured by my kill-a-watt on my gigabyte ep45-ud3p, intel q9550, 2x2gb memory, x-fi xtrememusic, avermedia tv tuner, lite-on dvd burner, 2x1tb WD GP, 1x WD 640gb, 1x 30gb ocz vertext ssd.

EDIT: One of the best power consumption/video card articles I've read and where I learned a lot of what I've listed above. http://ht4u.net/reviews/2009/p..._consumption_graphics/

 

[AzN]

Originally posted by: dguy6789

Originally posted by: Azn

Originally posted by: dguy6789
snip

By your definition these pre-overclocked cards are different chips because it uses higher clocks. :roll:

Pre overclocked cards provide a different gaming experience and different benchmark scores do they not? I suppose next you could tell me that a stock Honda one would buy and one that has had its performance characteristics heavily modified are still basically the same car.

So preoverclocked cards are different chip? :laugh: Next thing you know you stick an intake on your honda civic and call it an Porsche.

 

[dguy6789]

Originally posted by: Azn

Originally posted by: dguy6789

Originally posted by: Azn

Originally posted by: dguy6789
snip

By your definition these pre-overclocked cards are different chips because it uses higher clocks. :roll:

Pre overclocked cards provide a different gaming experience and different benchmark scores do they not? I suppose next you could tell me that a stock Honda one would buy and one that has had its performance characteristics heavily modified are still basically the same car.

So preoverclocked cards are different chip? :laugh: Next thing you know you stick an intake on your honda civic and call it an Porsche.

When you put an intake on a Civic, you now have a Civic with an intake instead of just a civic. When you overclock a GTS 250, you now have an overclocked GTS 250. Suppose I put some kind of exotic cooling solution on a graphics card and wanted to sell it. I wouldn't sell it as video card. I would sell it as video card with exotic cooling.

Rather than say the same thing over and over, why don't you try and address the points I am making? Does the experience offered by a GTS 250 512MB differ from the experience offered by a 9800GTX+ or not? Does the experience offered by a 4870 differ from the experience offered by the 4890 or not? Here's a hint: The largest difference or lack thereof between these cards is the clock speed. Would you get away with telling someone that a 4890 and a 4870 were the exact same video card? I think not.

 

[AzN]

Originally posted by: dguy6789

Originally posted by: Azn

Originally posted by: dguy6789

Originally posted by: Azn

Originally posted by: dguy6789
snip

By your definition these pre-overclocked cards are different chips because it uses higher clocks. :roll:

Pre overclocked cards provide a different gaming experience and different benchmark scores do they not? I suppose next you could tell me that a stock Honda one would buy and one that has had its performance characteristics heavily modified are still basically the same car.

So preoverclocked cards are different chip? :laugh: Next thing you know you stick an intake on your honda civic and call it an Porsche.

When you put an intake on a Civic, you now have a Civic with an intake instead of just a civic. When you overclock a GTS 250, you now have an overclocked GTS 250. Suppose I put some kind of exotic cooling solution on a graphics card and wanted to sell it. I wouldn't sell it as video card. I would sell it as video card with exotic cooling.

Rather than say the same thing over and over, why don't you try and address the points I am making? Does the experience offered by a GTS 250 512MB differ from the experience offered by a 9800GTX+ or not? Does the experience offered by a 4870 differ from the experience offered by the 4890 or not? Here's a hint: The largest difference or lack thereof between these cards is the clock speed. Would you get away with telling someone that a 4890 and a 4870 were the exact same video card? I think not.

Because you do not make much sense. You say GTS250 and 8800gts are the same chip while 4890 is not the same chip as 4870. Seems to me you are just swayed by these creepy marketing shams like Wreckless.

 

[dguy6789]

Originally posted by: Azn

Originally posted by: dguy6789

Originally posted by: Azn

Originally posted by: dguy6789

Originally posted by: Azn

Originally posted by: dguy6789
snip

By your definition these pre-overclocked cards are different chips because it uses higher clocks. :roll:

Pre overclocked cards provide a different gaming experience and different benchmark scores do they not? I suppose next you could tell me that a stock Honda one would buy and one that has had its performance characteristics heavily modified are still basically the same car.

So preoverclocked cards are different chip? :laugh: Next thing you know you stick an intake on your honda civic and call it an Porsche.

When you put an intake on a Civic, you now have a Civic with an intake instead of just a civic. When you overclock a GTS 250, you now have an overclocked GTS 250. Suppose I put some kind of exotic cooling solution on a graphics card and wanted to sell it. I wouldn't sell it as video card. I would sell it as video card with exotic cooling.

Rather than say the same thing over and over, why don't you try and address the points I am making? Does the experience offered by a GTS 250 512MB differ from the experience offered by a 9800GTX+ or not? Does the experience offered by a 4870 differ from the experience offered by the 4890 or not? Here's a hint: The largest difference or lack thereof between these cards is the clock speed. Would you get away with telling someone that a 4890 and a 4870 were the exact same video card? I think not.

Because you do not make much sense. You say GTS250 and 8800gts are the same chip while 4890 is not the same chip as 4870. Seems to me you are just swayed by these creepy marketing shams like Wreckless.

Okay you win, the 4890 and 4870 are the same video card.

 

[AzN]

Originally posted by: dguy6789

Originally posted by: Azn

Originally posted by: dguy6789

Originally posted by: Azn

Originally posted by: dguy6789

Originally posted by: Azn

Originally posted by: dguy6789
snip

By your definition these pre-overclocked cards are different chips because it uses higher clocks. :roll:

Pre overclocked cards provide a different gaming experience and different benchmark scores do they not? I suppose next you could tell me that a stock Honda one would buy and one that has had its performance characteristics heavily modified are still basically the same car.

So preoverclocked cards are different chip? :laugh: Next thing you know you stick an intake on your honda civic and call it an Porsche.

When you put an intake on a Civic, you now have a Civic with an intake instead of just a civic. When you overclock a GTS 250, you now have an overclocked GTS 250. Suppose I put some kind of exotic cooling solution on a graphics card and wanted to sell it. I wouldn't sell it as video card. I would sell it as video card with exotic cooling.

Rather than say the same thing over and over, why don't you try and address the points I am making? Does the experience offered by a GTS 250 512MB differ from the experience offered by a 9800GTX+ or not? Does the experience offered by a 4870 differ from the experience offered by the 4890 or not? Here's a hint: The largest difference or lack thereof between these cards is the clock speed. Would you get away with telling someone that a 4890 and a 4870 were the exact same video card? I think not.

Because you do not make much sense. You say GTS250 and 8800gts are the same chip while 4890 is not the same chip as 4870. Seems to me you are just swayed by these creepy marketing shams like Wreckless.

Okay you win, the 4890 and 4870 are the same video card.

Notice I say chip while you say card. I guess you believe 250gts is the same card as 9800gtx too.. Shameful marketing sham. You are officially just as bad as wreckless.