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Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,281
9,365
146
Sorry, but no. What you are trying to do is re characterize his abuse of power by saying "he only used his influence to remove the prosecutor who was going after my sons "consulting" company paychecks, which would have shown a light on the Bindens (again). Besides, other countries wanted the prosecutor removed because he simply was not tough enough on crime."

You dont get to use your power to remove a foreign prosecutor who is looking into corruption because he is not to your liking, especially when he threatens your personal interests in that same country!

The highlighted is a proven counterfactual lie. The line between opinion and fact can be a difficult one to parse. We will act rarely in such cases. But no poster should be allowed to post thoroughly proven lies as if they were facts. It amounts to dishonest trolling. There may be more such from you here in this thread. This one instance shall stand for them all.

Perknose
Forum Director
 

Cogman

Lifer
Sep 19, 2000
10,278
126
106
He did not withhold anything. Thats a media misrepsentation and left wing lie. Corruption is rampant in Ukraine. Why are we giving them miiltary aid to begin with? Let them fight their own damn war.

It is not "a media lie". He withdrew aid and then when the Ukrainian president asked for aid he said "I would like you to do us a favor".

What you are saying is spin. He with held aid and he bargained with an investigation into a political opponent. It really doesn't matter that "Corruption is rampant in Ukraine". That's not the issue. The issue is that President Trump used US aid as a bargaining chip to investigate a political rival.

Even if Biden and is son are guilty as sin, that doesn't make Trump's actions any more defensible. Can you imagine if there was an email between Obama and the UK prime minister where he said "Hey, we'll start this trade deal with you, but first, I need you to look into Mitch McConnell for me". You'd be losing your shit.

If you remember there was an investigation of Burisma that was called off because of pressure exerted by Vice President Biden. He did not want his son smeared even though he was on the take. If the president wanted the investigation restarted, it was ultimately up to Ukraine.

A whole bunch of politicians quit from the left and right but it was only because of the "me too" movement, not because the left wing media exposed any democrat scandals. I've been paying attention to politics a long time and know that things happen on the left and right but usually the left gets a pass because the media sympathizes with them.

One that comes to mind is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Rangel . Despite rank corruption and a House censure, he would not resign. He served for 46 years and the media did not "ride him" like they do republicans.

None of this really matters. What matters is the TRUMP committed a crime.


It is unhinged because unlike previous impeachment proceedings the democrats are trying something different this time. They are doing everything in secret, and even Schiff had to put on a comical performance of Trumps phone call to make some sort of point. If thats not Saturday Night Live while masquerading as an impeachment, I dont know what is. Furthermore, since there has been no full vote in the House (as has been done in the past) to undertake an impeachment inquiry and its being done behind closed doors it is nothing more than a circus show.

Don't blame the players. The Republican party set these investigation rules in place when they investigated Hillary over Benghazi. If you want to be pissed about this all being secret, you should be pissed at the Republican party for establishing these rules in the first place.

But, with all that said, there are still republicans on the various committees. It isn't like this is something that only Dems get to participate with.

Regarding Bill Clinton, he was impeached for lying under oath during a deposition in a civil trial. Thats called perjury. He was fined and lost his law license as a result. .....and all you could focus on was a blowjob?

Never said that wasn't what he was impeached over. The perjury was lying about the BJ. However, LONG before he committed perjury, the impeachment proceedings were already underway over the BJ. He committed a crime in the process of the inquiry, not before. So yeah, his impeachment was WAY more unhinged. Trumps impeachment inquiry happened after he released documents of the crime and committed the same crime on TV. That's not an unhinged process.

My only critique of the Democrats is that they didn't start the inquiry as soon as the Mueller report was released. That alone documented several crimes the president committed (Obstruction of justice, 10 counts). But then, they are still fighting with the "Justice" department to get the full unredacted report and evidence.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
 
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Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
Okay, lets say what you are saying is correct, that it was on done on behalf of US policy and was also done before Hunter was employed. If you had more than 3 brain cells, and did not have a taste for corruption, wouldn't you tell your son NOT to get a job at a company for $600,000 per year that benefited from your own actions as Vice President?

That sure as hell looks like a payoff to me.

That may be your opinion but more damning in terms of payoffs and appearances is the half million Rudy got paid by the arrested Ukranians outfit.

Rudy paid half a million by arrested Ukrane with which he has close ties.

Hunter said that politically it looks bad but that's because of Trump and his minions, not facts, and indeed facts show there is nothing wrong as far as the law goes.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,345
15,156
136
What is the point of this topic? Hunter has stepped down from positions before due to his father's role in government.


As to hunters character, well I for one won't be voting for him anytime soon.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,425
8,388
126
I am stating an opinion based on observable fact.
no, you're repeating a talking point originating on dumb right wing media that he's not qualified because he doesn't know oil and gas.

again, you don't need to know the specific industry to bring value to a company. knowing corporate governance is valuable, and he surely knew corporate governance. he's not some new grad from some for profit 13th grade biz school.
 
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VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
6,576
7,823
136
The Trump clan is too busy making America great again.

If Trump is so "great". The bestest, Tremendous President ever, why does he even need bogus dirt on Joe Biden. Why doesn't he just run in all of his wonderful accomplishments and leadership skills alone. He should just mop the floor with Biden straight up. Right?
 
Reactions: ivwshane

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
If Trump is so "great". The bestest, Tremendous President ever, why does he even need bogus dirt on Joe Biden. Why doesn't he just run in all of his wonderful accomplishments and leadership skills alone. He should just mop the floor with Biden straight up. Right?


Well Trump is draining the swamp but the one he occupies. I'm very curious about where Pete Session will go and it may well reveal why Reps are clinging to Trump when it's absurd at this point. You can't quit the Mafia Donnie.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,825
49,526
136
The people planning on voting for the guy who installed his handbag designer daughter and colossal real estate failure son in law in senior positions in the federal government overseeing foreign policy want you to know they are very concerned about the corrosive effects of nepotism.

Similarly the GOP chairwoman (Mitt Romney’s niece) and Donald Trump Jr. have both tweeted about how bad it is that Hunter Biden may have traded off his family name.

The bad faith is just bottomless with these people.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
no, you're repeating a talking point originating on dumb right wing media that he's not qualified because he doesn't know oil and gas.

again, you don't need to know the specific industry to bring value to a company. knowing corporate governance is valuable, and he surely knew corporate governance. he's not some new grad from some for profit 13th grade biz school.
Hunter already acknowledged that he most likely got the job due to who is father is. Liberals like to talk about privilege. Here is a perfect opportunity to check it. Not sure why you’re so vested in making excuses for him.
 
Feb 4, 2009
34,703
15,951
136
Hunter already acknowledged that he most likely got the job due to who is father is. Liberals like to talk about privilege. Here is a perfect opportunity to check it. Not sure why you’re so vested in making excuses for him.

It’s not privilege it’s oppertunity
Also I don’t think anyone on this board said Hunter Father has nothing to do with him getting the job
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,825
49,526
136
Hunter already acknowledged that he most likely got the job due to who is father is. Liberals like to talk about privilege. Here is a perfect opportunity to check it. Not sure why you’re so vested in making excuses for him.

No one is making excuses for it, we are just pointing out the obvious fact that you’re concern trolling.

The world has existed in a similar way for our entire lives. There are current examples that are orders of magnitude more egregious than anything here currently working in the federal government and yet nothing from you.

Currently there are tons of smears against the Bidens that are not just groundless but actively disproven yet I’ve seen none of the outrage you displayed about actually credible accusations against Brett Kavanaugh.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
The people planning on voting for the guy who installed his handbag designer daughter and colossal real estate failure son in law in senior positions in the federal government overseeing foreign policy want you to know they are very concerned about the corrosive effects of nepotism.

Similarly the GOP chairwoman (Mitt Romney’s niece) and Donald Trump Jr. have both tweeted about how bad it is that Hunter Biden may have traded off his family name.

The bad faith is just bottomless with these people.
Those are all legitimate criticism against Trump. Hard for Biden to criticize Trump on nepotism at this point.

No one is making excuses for it, we are just pointing out the obvious fact that you’re concern trolling.
It’s a legitimate concern. Trump effectively neutralized the Access Hollywood tape by bringing Bill Clinton’s accusers to a debate. He can similarly neutralize any narrative around cronyism when, at least in the case of Biden, his son is swimming in the same pool.

The world has existed in a similar way for our entire lives. There are current examples that are orders of magnitude more egregious than anything here currently working in the federal government and yet nothing from you.
That’s because I enter the conversation already accepting that Trump is an order of magnitude more egregious, but that Trump exists because for decades we’ve rationalized and excused the Hunter Bidens of the world.

Currently there are tons of smears against the Bidens that are not just groundless but actively disproven yet I’ve seen none of the outrage you displayed about actually credible accusations against Brett Kavanaugh.
You perceive the accusations against Kavanaugh as credible. I see them as politically opportunistic. I see the accusations against Biden are politically opportunistic as well. Both situations are indicative of the underlying sickness in our government.

That is why I support a Warren/Buttigieg ticket.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,425
8,388
126
Hard for Biden to criticize Trump on nepotism at this point.
bullshit. there is no evidence that hunter got the job because his father pulled strings to get him the job, which is what nepotism is. did he make the short list because of his family? yes, most likely. but that doesn't mean he's not qualified and it doesn't mean the elder biden did anything to promote him.

"The practice among those with power or influence of favouring relatives or friends, especially by giving them jobs."

you have no evidence that that happened, and you and the rest of the right wing constantly moves the goal posts on this. all you have is innuendo and logical fallacies. no evidence. no argument.
 
Last edited:

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
No one is making excuses for it, we are just pointing out the obvious fact that you’re concern trolling.

The world has existed in a similar way for our entire lives. There are current examples that are orders of magnitude more egregious than anything here currently working in the federal government and yet nothing from you.

Currently there are tons of smears against the Bidens that are not just groundless but actively disproven yet I’ve seen none of the outrage you displayed about actually credible accusations against Brett Kavanaugh.

You just gave him an opportunity for duh-version. Forget Kavanaugh.

The world has existed as it is throughout human history. Those born to privilege will obviously use it the same as the air they breathe. The purposes to which it is put are what matter.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
bullshit. there is no evidence that hunter got the job because his father pulled strings to get him the job, which is what nepotism is. did he make the short list because of his family? yes, most likely. but that doesn't mean he's not qualified and it doesn't mean the elder biden did anything to promote him.

"The practice among those with power or influence of favouring relatives or friends, especially by giving them jobs."

you have no evidence that that happened, and you and the rest of the right wing constantly moves the goal posts on this. all you have is innuendo and logical fallacies. no evidence. no argument.
Well the CNN moderators felt it was relevant because it came up in the debate last night, and John Kerry’s stepson advised against Burisma. Hunter admitted Burisma as an error in judgment.

The goal posts are firmly in place.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
He can similarly neutralize any narrative around cronyism when, at least in the case of Biden, his son is swimming in the same pool.

Let's assume that Hunter walked in and said "Hi, I'm Hunter, Joe Biden's son" and BANG, instajob.

In that, there's no corruption, no impropriety in any of Joe's actions, no illegalities, no worse that "Hi I am Sam Walton's great grandkid, I would like an executive position, thanks" and gets it. Yes that name carries enough weight to do just that. Sucks and unfair so make it illegal. When that happens then we'll revisit future cases.

Even so, I don't recall Hunter engaging in official diplomatic events instead of members of the State Department. Influence, cronyism? It's not a matter of degree, it's an entirely separate egregious act where US citizens may directly be impacted by her participation.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Well the CNN moderators felt it was relevant because it came up in the debate last night, and John Kerry’s stepson advised against Burisma. Hunter admitted Burisma as an error in judgment.

The goal posts are firmly in place.

Not exactly. The GOP claim is that Joe had the prosecutor fired to protect his son from a corruption investigation, which is bullshit. He wasn't on the board during the time the alleged corruption occurred. Ukraine investigated anyway & the owner of Burisma is back home in Ukraine sipping champagne on his veranda. That means it's impossible for Hunter to be guilty of anything other than poor judgement. It's not like he's running for office, anyway.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
Not exactly. The GOP claim is that Joe had the prosecutor fired to protect his son from a corruption investigation, which is bullshit. He wasn't on the board during the time the alleged corruption occurred. Ukraine investigated anyway & the owner of Burisma is back home in Ukraine sipping champagne on his veranda. That means it's impossible for Hunter to be guilty of anything other than poor judgement. It's not like he's running for office, anyway.
Biden is exonerated of any charge of corruption related to influencing Ukranian investigations. His son is a liability at a time when most Americans are eager to shine a light on cronyism.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
Biden is exonerated of any charge of corruption related to influencing Ukranian investigations. His son is a liability at a time when most Americans are eager to shine a light on cronyism.

Well I suppose Trump might have him arrested for corruption in that case.

On the scale of 1-10 this is about a one in terms of genuine importance. As I evidence I offer the hordes of millions who have quit because a relative or "in" rises faster to a higher position than others, which happens on a continuous basis. So far I don't any. YMMV.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
16,849
13,784
146
Well the CNN moderators felt it was relevant because it came up in the debate last night, and John Kerry’s stepson advised against Burisma. Hunter admitted Burisma as an error in judgment.

The goal posts are firmly in place.


Hunter said his error in choosing the job was in not seeing how it could be used in conspiracy theory against his father not in the job itself or anything he did.
 
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