3,767 dead :( (small edit)

[Einz]

<< This war is not revenge for the poor souls of 9/11. It is about making sure those terrorists can NEVER do that again! >>


So far it looks like revenge for the poor souls to me. We go after Osama and the Taliban. He flees into Pakistan, we will soon go after him in Pakistan. Terrorism can not be killed by targetting Osama and Afghanistan. As soon as we eliminate those threats, another will pop up. We have to eliminate the reason that these people hate us in order to elimate terrorism. Going after Osama is important in that we send a message to the terrorists of the world, but killing other people is not right. How many casualties in Afghanistan can be justified by the number of casualties on the 9/11 attack? Is this another eye for eye?

 

[Texmaster]

<< I think CZAR should have used the word "estimate" somewhere in his opening post.

Because some people who read the post and not click on the link....might think of that number as being exact.....SINCE estimates usually are NOT exact numbers.

An ESTIMATE would have been something like 3800 (two signififcant digits at most with a 4 digit number)....and people would have assumed it to be an estimate...without clicking the link. >>



Well said.

 

[Aelus]

3000 or so deaths is insignificant, not even a footnote in history, and frankly, they got a pretty nice death too, i'd rather die in an explosion, than be one of the 30000+ children that starve to death daily.

Aelus

 

[novon]

Right on Einz. The problem is right here at home, not out there.

 

[novon]

Aelus - How many before it's not okay? To value human life through concepts like numbers is very backwards.

 

[wepopfresh]

It's too bad people die during war.

Czar, if it makes you feel better, through friendly fire and accidents we usually kill some of our own to, and if you figure one us soldier is worth about 100 afghani civilians, we only have to lose 30 soldiers, and it will all be even.

 

[Texmaster]

<< Right on Einz. The problem is right here at home, not out there. >>



LOL!!! Spoken like a true Liberal. No one is responsible for their own actions.

The terrorists were FORCED by Americans to blow up the WTC. Right.


Hey Genius, did you know that Bin Laden ONLY mentioned Pakestan in the late 90s? Where was his crusade for them before that?

Next time, know the facts.

 

[kami]

*passes out complimentry bottles of extra-strength valium*

Texmaster, yeah it's an estimate but I am willing to bet it is reasonably close. That university would be under heavy media fire if they were wrong when/if the real numbers come out. It's not exactly 3,767 but I am sure it's close to that, give or take a few hundred maybe, or possibly give or take a thousand. The main point is, the American media is really lowering the numbers when they something as simple as "dozens." I never believed that number myself since they have been saying "dozens" for months.

*waits to be called a bleeding heart anti-american socialist*

Texmaster, we could say anything and it wouldn't change your train of thought...so why bother posting in this thread? I think your fellow Americans are more than capable of coming to their own conclusions.

just to be clear: i support the anti-terrorist campaign 100%, i just feel it's a shame so many had to die. period.

 

[Aelus]

<< Aelus - How many before it's not okay? To value human life through concepts like numbers is very backwards. >>



when talking about a number of deaths in the past, it all becomes statistics when you cross the line of 20 or so people.

one statistic sais that daily 30000+ children starve to death.
another sais over the past 3 months, 3000 people were killed.

30000x90=2.7 million

by that logic, i make the conclusion that 3000 is insignificant.

that doesn't mean i think those people should have been killed, i just say, in retrospect, it's not even worth talking about.

Aelus

 

[jbod]

Here is how I see it. Europeans and their attitude of "This is why they hate you, look at your policy around the world. You beat your war drums for revenge. It's going to create a never-ending cycle of violence."

Here is what I have to say to you. Thank you for your support. (not) If it wasn't for good ole Uncle Sam saving your pacifist asses in WWII you would be speaking German right now. You might say, "But I do speak German". But you would be forced to. See my point?

The US has done so much for Europe and we get treated like sh|t. We can always count on the English though. Unless they are taken over by even more socialistic minded politicians.

Our foreign policy is directly related to saving Europe's butt in WWI and WWII.

 

[Ferocious]

Another thing, CIVILIANS DIE IN WARS.

What do yo want...no bombers or fighter airplanes over there? If we sent NOTHING but ground troops over there, many more of our troops would have been killed....trying to positively identify every person before shooting them?!?!?

WWII might have lasted another decade if we never used air power.

Though not applicable to this current situation.........in some cases, CIVILLIANS need to be attacked directly when it's evident they continue to support their government as was the case in Japan in WWII......hence Hiroshima and Nagasaki...IMO.

 

[novon]

<< LOL!!! Spoken like a true Liberal. No one is responsible for their own actions.

The terrorists were FORCED by Americans to blow up the WTC. Right. >>



Everyone is responsible for their actions Texmaster. The terrorists are responsible for their actions, they chose violence, and that was the wrong choice. Fine, but the American government is also responsible for its actions, mainly, if some powerful people had decided to see the underlying causes of violence and ignorance, then they wouldn't have chosen the same path as the terrorists.

Your only responsibility Texmaster is to personally get past your narrow perspective on reality, once you do that, once enough people do that, then things like terrorism, war, revenge will no longer be a problem.

 

[Texmaster]

<< Texmaster, yeah it's an estimate but I am willing to bet it is reasonably close. That university would be under heavy media fire if they were wrong when/if the real numbers come out. It's not exactly 3,767 but I am sure it's close to that, give or take a few hundred maybe, or possibly give or take a thousand. The main point is, the American media is really lowering the numbers when they something as simple as "dozens." I never believed that number myself since they have been saying "dozens" for months. >>



And what do you even base your belief that its even CLOSE to being accurate? The guy even admits that not only is it an estimate, but his sources are Al Jazerra and 3 Pakestiani papers that have Spewed Anti American propeganda.

The theory, "I believe facts when they come from propedganda sources" is not a sound theory



<< *waits to be called a bleeding heart anti-american socialist* >>



*waits for the proof that backs up the theory*



<< Texmaster, we could say anything and it wouldn't change your train of thought...so why bother posting in this thread? I think your fellow Americans are more than capable of coming to their own conclusions. >>



Yeah we have this quark about wanting PROOF. I know its a foreign concept to you but we really rely on it over here.

So, show us all the proof you are relying on.




<< just to be clear: i support the anti-terrorist campaign 100%, i just feel it's a shame so many had to die. period. >>




Then why are you so quick to believe a study that has NO proof?

 

[novon]

<< What do yo want...no bombers or fighter airplanes over there? If we... >>



Step outside the war itself and see if it was nessecary in the first place. I think not.

 

novon

You are so full of sh!t,it is coming out of your ears.

What do you propose to do,sit back and watch more terrorism occur ?

 

I find it funny that so many people in Canada can critisize the US from their ivory towers.

 

[novon]

<< Our foreign policy is directly related to saving Europe's butt in WWI and WWII. >>



So we take something aweful like war, which Hitler was causing, and we continue the practice, even make it our policy?

It seems to me we'd want to stop war all together. By trying to control other countries, we only feed war. By setting an example, we will inspire other countries to follow us to peace. But it doesn't look like it's going to happen until a critical mass of people reach some profound realizations.

 

[Texmaster]

<< LOL!!! Spoken like a true Liberal. No one is responsible for their own actions.

The terrorists were FORCED by Americans to blow up the WTC. Right. >>





<< Everyone is responsible for their actions Texmaster. The terrorists are responsible for their actions, they chose violence, and that was the wrong choice. >>



Good. Next time don't blame the victims.



<< Fine, but the American government is also responsible for its actions, mainly, if some powerful people had decided to see the underlying causes of violence and ignorance, then they wouldn't have chosen the same path as the terrorists. >>



Name one thing America has done to the Afgan people that deserves 3,000 people killed

And don't forget the Afgan people got more food and clothing from America than anyone else.



<< Your only responsibility Texmaster is to personally get past your narrow perspective on reality, once you do that, once enough people do that, then things like terrorism, war, revenge will no longer be a problem. >>



There is no other perspective when it comes to this so called Article.

Not only is it an estimate but it doens't have one single fact to support its conclusions.

I thought facts meant something.

 

By setting an example, we will inspire other countries to follow us to peace.

It is very obvious that you know nothing about human nature.

 

[novon]

Roger, resorting to personal attacks and flash judgments is no way to have a discussion. I hope you eventually see the situation in its reality.

p e a c e

 

[AnthraX101]

There is one way to deal with a pacifist:

1) Listen to his argument

2) Punch him in the face, hard

3) When he gets back up to come at you, remind him of his pacifist ideals, and that retaliation is wrong.

4) Repeat steps 1-4 until he opens his eyes to reality.

We have been getting punched in the face by Osama for years. We finaly have started to open our eyes. Oh, and by the way, I am punching you in the face because of your pacifist policies, if you change them I stop...sounds like what you are calling for America to do.

Armani

 

That is your reality (Fantasy).

You have yet to reply to my questions.

So we sit back and watch more attacks occur (By your thinking)

I was not attacking you,I was stating a fact.

 

[Azraele]

<< And here comes Czar and his hate filled Anti American propaganda >>


Texmaster:: As far as I can see, Czar is sad about how many innocent lives have been lost in this war. People tend to forget that Afghanistan is not all Taliban, nor are they all responsible for what happened. Because of the Taliban's actions and the resulting war, the civilians in Afghanistan have suffered too and may possibly be just as much of a victim as the Americans that were lost. All war's lose innocent lives, families lose members. This should not be forgotten. Has Czar stated that all Americans are bad? Did I miss something? As noble as your patriotism may be, you come across a bit strong, almost to the point of raving. Do you hate all American Muslims too?

 

[Einz]

<< Name one thing America has done to the Afgan people that deserves 3,000 people killed >>



Name one thing that the Afgan PEOPLE has done to the US to justify however many Afgans have been killed? The Taliban and Al Qaeda (sp?) should pay, not the Afgan people. You would think with our "smart" bombs and high technologies and the "special forces" that we would be able to isolate these people and not have civilian casualties. I agree they are inevitable, but 3000 is a bit much isn't it? As to Roger, with the highest respect, terrorism occurs because people hate us. Killing more people will only increase that hatred. Does giving them food justify killing them?

 

[Texmaster]

<<

<< And here comes Czar and his hate filled Anti American propaganda >>


Texmaster:: As far as I can see, Czar is sad about how many innocent lives have been lost in this war. >>




Oh PLEASE. He takes every opportunity to slam Americans on something. All you have to do is read his posts.

If he was so conscerned about these people, where was his conscern when the Taliban was in power?



<< People tend to forget that Afghanistan is not all Taliban, nor are they all responsible for what happened. Because of the Taliban's actions and the resulting war, the civilians in Afghanistan have suffered too and may possibly be just as much of a victim as the Americans that were lost. All war's lose innocent lives, families lose members. This should not be forgotten. >>



War is hell. This should also not be forgotten. The Afgan people number in the millions while the Taliban numbered in the thousands. If they really wanted them out of power, they would have revolted. These are the same people who drove out the Russians. Believe me, they have the will when they want to.



<< Has Czar stated that all Americans are bad? Did I miss something? >>



What Czar has done is taken all opportunties available to him to point out America's faults.

All you have to do is look for a pro-american thread he started. You wont find one. I rest my case.



<< As noble as your patriotism may be, you come across a bit strong, almost to the point of raving. Do you hate all American Muslims too? >>



Now who is being strong? Where have I even said the word Muslim in this thread?

I deal in facts, somthing this article lacks heavily. What conscerns me is your refusal to look at the lack of evidence supporting the article.

Are you so bias towards Americans you just believe anything that shows America in a bad light?