3 Californias

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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,867
34,814
136
Depends on how you do it. If you split off Inland Empire that's a new red state with a decent amount of population (~5M I think?).

wut?

Riverside and San Bernardino counties voted to elect Clinton and Kamala Harris by significant margins.
 

compuwiz1

Admin Emeritus Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
27,113
925
126
This whole idea is Jerry "moonbeam" Brown's kind of idiocy. Fail!
There is no tax around here that democrats don't love. Be it, as it may, there are plenty of people who are sick of this shit and the ultr-liberalism that exists here. At some point, there is going to be push back. California is the nation's worst state for poverty. That's pretty disgusting for a state that boasts so much prosperity. Some of are tired of people shitting all over the street, sleeping in store fronts, puking all over the place, leaving syringes all over, etc. A river here is not safe to swim in because of all the pathogens, given to us by what I have mentioned. California has serious issues....liberals and their failed policies!

Two lessons here:
You cant tax people into prosperity
You can't legislate morality

This is the most disgusting place I have ever lived, yet the highest taxed, and the most immoral. Where else can you see a near naked man wearing butt cheek revealing chaps, parading around young kids? Yeah, Pride!
 
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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,867
34,814
136
This whole idea is Jerry "moonbeam" Brown's kind of idiocy. Fail!
There is no tax around here that democrats don't love. Be it, as it may, there are plenty of people who are sick of this shit and the ultr-liberalism that exists here. At some point, there is going to be push back. California is the nation's worst state for poverty. That's pretty disgusting for a state that boasts so much prosperity. Some of are tired of people shitting all over the street, sleeping in store fronts, puking all over the place, leaving syringes all over, etc. A river here is not safe to swim in because of all the pathogens, given to us by what I have mentioned. California has serious issues....liberals and their failed policies!

This whole effort is being pushed by a nutjob venture capitalist.

I don't have time to address all the crazy in your post but let me just take on the "worst state for poverty" bit.

 
Reactions: Aegeon

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,867
34,814
136
This is the most disgusting place I have ever lived, yet the highest taxed, and the most immoral. Where else can you see a near naked man wearing butt cheek revealing chaps, parading around young kids? Yeah, Pride!

Is the state supposed to legislate morality? If so who gets to set the standard?

Also chaps are by definition assless so...
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
We don’t talk about them because they have mild climates and significant US investment around WW2 so their governance has nothing to do with it.

You still haven't explained a causal link and the counterexamples provided of left-wing countries performing badly (or cities and states such as Detroit, etc.) seem to indicate that governance has more of a sufficiency relationship to performance than necessity. Looking at the relative performance of right-wing governments and seeing the same distribution of poor to good performance exists thus strengthens the presumption that governance wasn't the causal factor, certainly not the primary causal factor. When you can see places as different as San Francisco and Colorado Springs enjoying amazing quality of life and economies despite having radically different governing philosophies it's probably fair to downgrade governance as the key driver of that performance. Likewise if you flip things around and compare bad examples (Greece vs. Mississippi) it's hard to say it's left-wing or right-wing politics as the key driver of that performance either.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,812
49,498
136
You still haven't explained a causal link and the counterexamples provided of left-wing countries performing badly (or cities and states such as Detroit, etc.) seem to indicate that governance has more of a sufficiency relationship to performance than necessity. Looking at the relative performance of right-wing governments and seeing the same distribution of poor to good performance exists thus strengthens the presumption that governance wasn't the causal factor, certainly not the primary causal factor. When you can see places as different as San Francisco and Colorado Springs enjoying amazing quality of life and economies despite having radically different governing philosophies it's probably fair to downgrade governance as the key driver of that performance. Likewise if you flip things around and compare bad examples (Greece vs. Mississippi) it's hard to say it's left-wing or right-wing politics as the key driver of that performance either.

I don't think liberal governance is a requirement for good economic performance but I think it's also foolish to discount that nearly all of the most successful economies in the world are liberal democracies. I also don't think it's an accident that nearly all of the most successful economic areas in the US are liberal. Also, Colorado Springs is probably not a good example considering its economy is based almost entirely around infusions of federal defense spending to the area, unlike San Francisco.

I've never made the claim that areas are successful solely or even in a majority sense because they adopted liberal policies. The evidence does indicate that liberal policies are beneficial, however.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
We don’t talk about them because they have mild climates and significant US investment around WW2 so their governance has nothing to do with it.
It’s as if economic prosperity is not directly and consistently attributable to one political ideology.
 

obidamnkenobi

Golden Member
Sep 16, 2010
1,407
423
136
The only problem with that would be that the new inland empire state would be an exceptionally poor one, on par with Mississippi. I don't think many people would want to create a deliberately destitute state like that.

ahem, just one example
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Fallin#Governor_of_Oklahoma_(2011–present)

Eliminate income tax, increase sales tax (regressive)
More oil drilling ("Oilfield Prayer Day"!)
cuts to education
oppose EPA
restrict local minimum-wage and sick leave

Almost comical, like she's trying to create a toxic wasteland full of uneducated, impoverished people..
 

OWR88

Senior member
Oct 27, 2013
231
73
101
LOL federal spending in California is not as huge as the Trumpers would like to believe. Aerospace industry will continue to thrive independently without USA. Why act like federal spending is the driving force in California economy, it was never the case. In Arlington VA, Oklahoma, and Houston, yes they will suffer greatly without federal budget, but not California.
 

OWR88

Senior member
Oct 27, 2013
231
73
101
I find it ironic that if you cant make it in California, you blame the "liberals". Man up and compete, work harder and stop the jealousy. American "conservatives" have become too lazy, uneducated, and entitled.

Stop complaining about paying a few extra dollars in taxes and start thinking about how to make a few more dollars.

Stop sending your kids to the military as a form of welfare. If you were a good enough parents perhaps your kid could mingle with the liberals kids at UCLA medical school. If they do use the GI Bill please make sure they actually learn something and graduate, don't use that money to buy trucks.
 

sportage

Lifer
Feb 1, 2008
11,493
3,159
136
Actually, this is really funny.
I lived out in CA for many many years and it was so easy to put anything on the ballot. Any off the wall desire.
All you needed was a small army of friends and volunteers to stroll around the parking lots of any Vons, Ralphs, Alpha Beta, etc etc gathering signatures.
I remember some of the nuttiest issues earring a place on the ballot simply by using this same method.
And getting enough signatures was plenty easy. That could be done in just a few weekends.
Anyone could easily get enough signatures to change the state bird to a roach if they wanted that.

Getting whatever you might imagine on the ballot was not the issue.
The issue was, should that pass then it went to the courts.
And in the end all this amounted to was higher taxes for everyone.
Higher taxes to pay for legal challenges by the state.

I remember something on the ballot back in the 80's that would require telephone poles to be shortened, then shiny pretty silver caps be installed onto the tops of every pole.
And that ballot proposal probably passed.
However, the state then killed it in the courts.
And in the end, everyones property taxes went up.
Thanks crazy people.
I see your at it again....
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
I find it ironic that if you cant make it in California, you blame the "liberals". Man up and compete, work harder and stop the jealousy. American "conservatives" have become too lazy, uneducated, and entitled.
How very bootstrappy and conservative of you.

Stop sending your kids to the military as a form of welfare. If you were a good enough parents perhaps your kid could mingle with the liberals kids at UCLA medical school. If they do use the GI Bill please make sure they actually learn something and graduate, don't use that money to buy trucks.
You really know nothing about military service, the GI bill or the “welfare” of military service.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
The evidence does indicate that liberal policies are beneficial, however.
Is it that liberal policies enable economic growth, or that liberal policies are able to leech onto to already existing centers of economic activity? You’ve never asserted which liberal policies create economic growth.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,277
8,201
136
Is it that liberal policies enable economic growth, or that liberal policies are able to leech onto to already existing centers of economic activity? You’ve never asserted which liberal policies create economic growth.

I doubt it's either. More likely that the same things that lead to increasing wealth also lead to increasing liberalism (e.g. education), and increasing wealth means less need to cling to things that are antithetical to liberalism.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,812
49,498
136
Is it that liberal policies enable economic growth, or that liberal policies are able to leech onto to already existing centers of economic activity? You’ve never asserted which liberal policies create economic growth.

Universal education is a liberal policy that has enabled improved economic growth.

Are you saying you think it’s a coincidence that basically all the most economically successful areas in the world are liberal? Does that seem likely to you?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,812
49,498
136
I doubt it's either. More likely that the same things that lead to increasing wealth also lead to increasing liberalism (e.g. education), and increasing wealth means less need to cling to things that are antithetical to liberalism.

Universal access to education is most certainly a liberal policy. Conservative education policy would be to get the government out of education and let those who can afford it get it.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,699
6,196
126
This whole idea is Jerry "moonbeam" Brown's kind of idiocy. Fail!
There is no tax around here that democrats don't love. Be it, as it may, there are plenty of people who are sick of this shit and the ultr-liberalism that exists here. At some point, there is going to be push back. California is the nation's worst state for poverty. That's pretty disgusting for a state that boasts so much prosperity. Some of are tired of people shitting all over the street, sleeping in store fronts, puking all over the place, leaving syringes all over, etc. A river here is not safe to swim in because of all the pathogens, given to us by what I have mentioned. California has serious issues....liberals and their failed policies!

Two lessons here:
You cant tax people into prosperity
You can't legislate morality

This is the most disgusting place I have ever lived, yet the highest taxed, and the most immoral. Where else can you see a near naked man wearing butt cheek revealing chaps, parading around young kids? Yeah, Pride!
I think something you may be failing to consider is how disgusting people sound when they register their disgust in a vituperous manner, especially to liberals. I think this makes liberals disgustingly deaf and saying so won't help them to hear. I think a case can be made for public sexual decorum without expressing homophobia. You just haven't had a chance to evolve.

When one acts in an apparently disgusting manner your complaints tend to be ignored. I think rural Californians need to have their concerns better addressed than has been the recent case.

If you want to be heard you don't want people going, "Oh Fuck, here comes that psycho, compuwiz1, again.

My dear Uncle used to beat gays up when he was a sailor and later had a gifted gay daughter. They loved each other deeply.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
Universal access to education is most certainly a liberal policy. Conservative education policy would be to get the government out of education and let those who can afford it get it.
Depends on how you define liberalism. Western democracies are the product of liberalism as defined by its emergence from the Age of Enlightenment, so in that sense you are correct.

Having said that, Democrats are hardly liberals.

The most successful European nations are homogenous democratic socialist countries with progressive tax policies, strong middle classes and fiscally conservative governments. FDR and the Democrats may have stood for that once, but not anymore.

The most successful parts of America suffer from increased wealth disparity and an almost feudal economic model. That is not liberalism.

Education policy in America today has little to do with education, and is instead a dance around either leveraging or mitigating the power of teacher’s unions.
 
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Depends on how you define liberalism. Western democracies are the product of liberalism as defined by its emergence from the Age of Enlightenment, so in that sense you are correct.

Having said that, Democrats are hardly liberals.

The most successful European nations are homogenous democratic socialist countries with progressive tax policies, strong middle classes and fiscally conservative governments. FDR and the Democrats may have stood for that once, but not anymore.

The most successful parts of America suffer from increased wealth disparity and an almost feudal economic model. That is not liberalism.

Education policy in America today has little to do with education, and is instead a dance around either leveraging or mitigating the power of teacher’s unions.

Obfuscate more. European govts function on much higher tax rates, particularly wrt the wealthy. And if you want to talk in terms of fiscal responsibility Dems are willing to do that. The GOP has obviously been bought by the right wing lootocracy.

Your concerns are duly noted, however.
 
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