30+ years ago NRA blocked efforts to help trace gunpowder used in Boston bombing

[HomerJS]

In 1974 technology was developed to place "taggents" in gunpowder

Each chip, about the size of a grain of sand, carries a microscopic color code that shows where and when the explosives were made. They can be gathered with magnets or viewed with fluorescent light.

1979 pilot program using taggents produced the following...

In a pilot program, manufacturers inserted the plastic tags into some 7 million pounds of dynamite sold between 1977 and 1979 - a fraction of 1 percent of the dynamite sold in those years.

The test wasn't expected to lead to an arrest. But in May 1979 investigators found taggants from one of the test shipments at the scene of a car bomb that killed Nathan Allen of Baltimore. Within 24 hours they traced the dynamite from its maker to the buyer, Allen's uncle, James McFillin.

McFillin, who apparently believed Allen was having an affair with his wife, was convicted and sentenced to 30 years in prison.

Enter the good ole' NRA blocking legislation to require taggents in gunpowder. One of the excuses the a familiar MO

likened it to federal registration of firearms

Fast forward to 2013 and the Boston bombing was committed using gunpowder which would be easily traceable with taggents that we don't have thanks to the NRA.


http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19950502&slug=2118763

 

[thraashman]

The NRA consistently pushes an agenda that makes Americans less safe.

 

[cubby1223]

If we tied up all citizens in chains and shackles from birth, not allowing anyone access to anything other than food and water, that would have actually prevented this Boston bombing, instead of just making it more difficult to find the bomber after-the-fact.

I want to know who was against this idea and I want to express outrage against them!

 

[MomentsofSanity]

If we tied up all citizens in chains and shackles from birth, not allowing anyone access to anything other than food and water, that would have actually prevented this Boston bombing, instead of just making it more difficult to find the bomber after-the-fact.

I want to know who was against this idea and I want to express outrage against them!

It's a legitimate criticism in the op. Why not discuss it rationally instead of this nonsense?

What reason could there possibly be to not make the manufacturer of explosives easily identifiable?

 

[WelshBloke]

If we tied up all citizens in chains and shackles from birth, not allowing anyone access to anything other than food and water, that would have actually prevented this Boston bombing, instead of just making it more difficult to find the bomber after-the-fact.

I want to know who was against this idea and I want to express outrage against them!

That's all very well but how would those additives to gunpowder negatively affect your life?

 

[SirPorl29]

How would this have prevented the incident in Boston?

 

[Rangoric]

How would this have prevented the incident in Boston?

We can only do things to PREVENT stuff?

Well just throw out the fingerprints, DNA samples, trials and jails. Since those don't PREVENT these people from doing something (Well see, they already did it) they shouldn't even be bothered with.

Because catching the people who did something, and bringing them to justice is just a waste of time.

I mean, it's not like they would be able to do it again if we don't pursue them, they are done blowing stuff up.

 

[2timer]

We can only do things to PREVENT stuff?

Well just throw out the fingerprints, DNA samples, trials and jails. Since those don't PREVENT these people from doing something (Well see, they already did it) they shouldn't even be bothered with.

Because catching the people who did something, and bringing them to justice is just a waste of time.

I mean, it's not like they would be able to do it again if we don't pursue them, they are done blowing stuff up.

Reread the OP, the object is to aid law enforcement and make catching criminals easier, but the NRA lobbied against those measures.

You don't do a good job at reading comprehension.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

Reread the OP, the object is to aid law enforcement and make catching criminals easier, but the NRA lobbied against those measures.

You don't do a good job at reading comprehension.

Ummm they were directly responding to the post they quoted. I don't think the comprehension issue is on Rangoric's part.

 

[SirPorl29]

We can only do things to PREVENT stuff?

Well just throw out the fingerprints, DNA samples, trials and jails. Since those don't PREVENT these people from doing something (Well see, they already did it) they shouldn't even be bothered with.

Because catching the people who did something, and bringing them to justice is just a waste of time.

I mean, it's not like they would be able to do it again if we don't pursue them, they are done blowing stuff up.

The big push these days is to "prevent" such tragedies from happening. Yes this would be a fabulous forensics tool for after the fact but you are going to need a little bit more than just taggent in gunpowder. You are going to need to keep records on what lots were sold to whom and the likes, like dynamite sales. So you would need some sort of registry or paper trail.

 

[ivwshane]

The big push these days is to "prevent" such tragedies from happening. Yes this would be a fabulous forensics tool for after the fact but you are going to need a little bit more than just taggent in gunpowder. You are going to need to keep records on what lots were sold to whom and the likes, like dynamite sales. So you would need some sort of registry or paper trail.

And that's just too much work with today's computers./s

 

[SirPorl29]

And that's just too much work with today's computers./s

In the 1970s and 80s it probably was. The NRA wanted to prevent a registry and it appears a registry would be needed for this.

 

[thraashman]

In the 1970s and 80s it probably was. The NRA wanted to prevent a registry and it appears a registry would be needed for this.

The simple truth of it is that the NRA knows that the more people killed by gun violence that goes unsolved the more it will fuel paranoia amongst crazy people and the more guns will get sold thus lining their pockets. To think it's fueled by anything but rank greed is fantasy. People dying by unsolved crimes fills their pockets. Lives are less important than money to the worst of society. That worst of society is the NRA.

 

[SirPorl29]

The simple truth of it is that the NRA knows that the more people killed by gun violence that goes unsolved the more it will fuel paranoia amongst crazy people and the more guns will get sold thus lining their pockets. To think it's fueled by anything but rank greed is fantasy. People dying by unsolved crimes fills their pockets. Lives are less important than money to the worst of society. That worst of society is the NRA.

Both sides have their "crazy" folks and both sides have their bought and paid for politicians.

 

[LunarRay]

IF we say that we can't keep folks from doing nutty things we ought to be able to also say ... "But, we'll certainly break you of the habit"...

It would seem reasonable to enact what ever it takes to enable the rapid effecting of the latter bit of my comment above. We all ought to have the same rights and the nutty folks who kill others should be given the right to counsel and all that goes with being arrested... asap.

 

[monovillage]

It's a legitimate criticism in the op. Why not discuss it rationally instead of this nonsense?

What reason could there possibly be to not make the manufacturer of explosives easily identifiable?

If you had read the story there is a possibility that the additives in the cartridges would prove unstable over time. Or did you read the story?

http://www.princeton.edu/~ota/disk3/1980/8017/801706.PDF

........................
Herco” smokeless powder do show significant-
ly reduced stability.

 

[irishScott]

The simple truth of it is that the NRA knows that the more people killed by gun violence that goes unsolved the more it will fuel paranoia amongst crazy people and the more guns will get sold thus lining their pockets. To think it's fueled by anything but rank greed is fantasy. People dying by unsolved crimes fills their pockets. Lives are less important than money to the worst of society. That worst of society is the NRA.

Actually the more people killed by gun violence the more likely it is the NRA will be overridden, as it was in the 90s, and gun control legislation passed in spite of it. So it's actually in the NRA's best interest to prevent death.

What fills their pockets more than anything is the gun control lobby being stupid. You want to line the pockets of the NRA? Keep trying with this assault weapons ban bullshit. Keep placing idiots like Feinstein and Biden in leadership roles. Keep proposing gun control that won't do jack shit to stop gun crime.

Or you can be the adult in the room, start suggesting sensible, effective measures and the NRA won't have a leg to stand on. But that would require compromise and a fair trade (ie: tighter gun control in return for recognition of gun freedoms), which seems to be beyond the limits of a modern gun control advocate's capabilities.

Also, from the article:

As for the NRA, last Sunday on NBC-TV's "Meet the Press," its executive vice president, Wayne LaPierre, noted the group's earlier argument that taggants might destabilize gunpowder. But he added, "We're taking a whole other look at the issue."

So it sounds like the NRA is backing down.

Even if it wasn't, calling the NRA "the worst of society" has all the legitimacy of EA being elected "worst company in America." Your views and your exposition of them to others has probably earned the NRA a few bucks along the line, I hope you're happy.

 

[michal1980]

I don't see why we have to make law enforcements job easier? That just stupid.

Should we all have our DNA, finger prints, and face on file as well? All of those things will make law enforcement easier.

 

[DrPizza]

In the dynamite case - was the uncle aware that there were taggents in the dynamite? We can what-if all day. What if the person who committed this crime was also committed to not getting caught. Gun powder isn't the only possible ingredient for an explosive. What if he went this route because it was simpler, instead of, say Oklahoma City style bomb?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

In the dynamite case - was the uncle aware that there were taggents in the dynomite? We can what-if all day. What if the person who committed this crime was also committed to not getting caught. Gun powder isn't the only possible ingredient for an explosive. What if he went this route because it was simpler, instead of, say Oklahoma City style bomb?

What is the Tyler Durden quote? "Explosives can be made with many common household chemicals" or something to that effect.

The OP had to go back 40 years or so ago for this one. In that time tagging would have been known and it would have been a matter of going to something else which would be relatively easy to get/make. The real problem is that there is no effective solution to prevent attacks.

You know (and this isn't a serious proposal) we could always chip people now with gps locators. Perhaps this is the OPs best solution and I'm sure there are people who would embrace it, maybe the OP himself.

 

[frowertr]

You know (and this isn't a serious proposal) we could always chip people now with gps locators. Perhaps this is the OPs best solution and I'm sure there are people who would embrace it, maybe the OP himself.

Yup. The are those that are ok with giving up EVERY LIBERTY THEY HAVE in order to believe that they live in a "safer world". Fuck that... I'd rather enjoy my life than live in constant fear. I can fend for myself and my family just fine without big brother telling me what I can and cannot do.

The people that want bigger government need to move out of this country if they hate it so much. Go somewhere else and good riddance!

 

[Texashiker]

The NRA consistently pushes an agenda that makes Americans less safe.

That is not true and you know it.

The NRA pushes to enforce the laws we currently have, which are ignored by law enforcement.

That worst of society is the NRA.

The worst of society is our broken justice system.

I will give you an example, man on parole for a violent offense tries to rob someone with a concealed carry permit. The robber was shot and killed.

http://www.myfoxdfw.com/story/21993610/robber-shot-dead-by-would-be-victim-outside-everman-store

Why was someone convicted of a violent crime out on parole?

Fix the justice system, you fix a majority of the repeat offenders.

 

[KB]

"Opponents said the government had not proved the devices were safe. Tampering with explosives could put miners and others who work with them at risk, the Institute of Makers of Explosives said. Opponents also argued that the taggant program would be too expensive."

The NRA wasn't the only ones against it. I think the Institute of Makers of Explosives might be better experts on explosives than politicians or the ATF are.

 

[thraashman]

Actually the more people killed by gun violence the more likely it is the NRA will be overridden, as it was in the 90s, and gun control legislation passed in spite of it. So it's actually in the NRA's best interest to prevent death.

What fills their pockets more than anything is the gun control lobby being stupid. You want to line the pockets of the NRA? Keep trying with this assault weapons ban bullshit. Keep placing idiots like Feinstein and Biden in leadership roles. Keep proposing gun control that won't do jack shit to stop gun crime.

Or you can be the adult in the room, start suggesting sensible, effective measures and the NRA won't have a leg to stand on. But that would require compromise and a fair trade (ie: tighter gun control in return for recognition of gun freedoms), which seems to be beyond the limits of a modern gun control advocate's capabilities.

Also, from the article:


So it sounds like the NRA is backing down.

Even if it wasn't, calling the NRA "the worst of society" has all the legitimacy of EA being elected "worst company in America." Your views and your exposition of them to others has probably earned the NRA a few bucks along the line, I hope you're happy.

The NRA has done its best to fuel paranoia to gun nuts from the second Sandy Hook happened, and that increased gun sales enormously. Fueling paranoia amongst the craziest is a good way to make money if you sell something that caters to them. You have NRA brainwashed nutsos sit here and call background checks unconstitutional when the NRA themselves was all for them up until someone actually tried to do it.

As far as my "worst of society" comment. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they're worse than rapists and murderers and what have you. Those people have chosen to violate the rules of society and can no longer be considered part of it. However the NRA makes money off of violence in society. Anyone that profits from violence deserves to be called the worst of society.

 

[thraashman]

That is not true and you know it.

The NRA pushes to enforce the laws we currently have, which are ignored by law enforcement.




The worst of society is our broken justice system.

I will give you an example, man on parole for a violent offense tries to rob someone with a concealed carry permit. The robber was shot and killed.

http://www.myfoxdfw.com/story/21993610/robber-shot-dead-by-would-be-victim-outside-everman-store

Why was someone convicted of a violent crime out on parole?

Fix the justice system, you fix a majority of the repeat offenders.

The NRA has consistently worked to make it impossible to actually enforce the laws we have concerning gun control. Here's a good clip The Daily Show did showing a few of the things the NRA has done. www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-january-16-2013/there-goes-the-boom---atf

Now we can talk about the justice system if you'd like though that is a different conversation. But we can't keep someone in prison forever for every crime available, that would definitely violate the Constitution (significantly more than background checks would). The inherent problem with the justice system is the focus on punishment and confinement instead of on rehabilitation.