$300 processor faster than o/c'd 2500k?

TidusZ

Golden Member
Nov 13, 2007
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Will it happen in the next 3 years? Will it only happen when cell phone processors surpass it?
 

TidusZ

Golden Member
Nov 13, 2007
1,765
2
81
The 3570k and 4670k are faster

Well I see you have a 2500k @4.4, but I o/c'd two for friends and got 5 ghz and 4.8 ghz at low volts... A lot of people hit 5 ghz and for sake of argument you could compare the 2700 vs 3770 or whatever. I don't really agree that they are faster after you do a reasonably aggressive/safe o/c on all of them.
 

Smartazz

Diamond Member
Dec 29, 2005
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Well I see you have a 2500k @4.4, but I o/c'd two for friends and got 5 ghz and 4.8 ghz at low volts... A lot of people hit 5 ghz and for sake of argument you could compare the 2700 vs 3770 or whatever. I don't really agree that they are faster after you do a reasonably aggressive/safe o/c on all of them.

I used to run it at 4.6GHz, but volts are much lower at 4.4GHz. Most SB will not hit 4.8GHz or 5GHz and be IBT/P95 stable. Haswell and Ivy Bridge can match that with considerably lower clocks.
 
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pandemonium

Golden Member
Mar 17, 2011
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So, by faster, you're speaking solely about the clock speeds and not their performances?
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
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Well I see you have a 2500k @4.4, but I o/c'd two for friends and got 5 ghz and 4.8 ghz at low volts... A lot of people hit 5 ghz and for sake of argument you could compare the 2700 vs 3770 or whatever. I don't really agree that they are faster after you do a reasonably aggressive/safe o/c on all of them.

True. I've had a 2500k, 2600k, 2700k (boomerang chip), three 3770ks, a 4770k, and a 980x personally over the past couple of years, along with building several dozen similar units for friends and customers (with the odd Llano/Phenom/etc as well).

One can't really say that a 4.3Ghz 4770K, 4.6-4.7Ghz 3770k, or 4.9-5.1Ghz 2600/2700k are very different at all in performance, outside of the very particular apps that really take off with Haswell. IOW, a blind swap inside a gamer's PC would produce no appreciable differences in actual use, in vast contrast to the 'leap' feeling you get going to a ~5ghz i7 from a ~3.5Ghz C2Q/PhII or older. Of all those combos, I've gone back to a Z77 Pro and 5Ghz 2700K as my favorite for my personal purposes. Cool running, fast, ultra stable. I even had a DOA 3770K! Crazy.

For stock non-OC'er models, the newer ones are faster to a larger % than OC vs. OC systems due to the same basic 3.3-3.5Ghz range of base clock speed being used, and that produces battles between the gens at the same frequency, so of course the IPC advantages of single to double digits come into play more easily. Still no great shakes, but they don't look as embarrassing from that perspective. Of course, a competently overclocked SB i7 will still outpace a stock Haswell in almost everything by a little to a lot. I have seen reports on AT that a stock 4770 will heat-throttle under load with a stock cooler, so that also is disappointing. Stock coolers shouldn't cause the processor to throttle under load. In the big picture that's not a deal breaker, after all a $20 air cooler is almost infinitely better than the stock push-pin trash.

It's been the most boring possible couple of gens imaginable for desktop enthusiast/OC crowd.

For mobile/laptop it's been pretty darn good though. IB/HW on a laptop aren't saddled with crappy TIM and resulting thermal nightmares,and perform great with long battery life, reasonable temps, and good performance increases.
 

Ben90

Platinum Member
Jun 14, 2009
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A lot of lowend P4s ran way above 3.3Ghz for considerably cheaper than 300.

Or are you talking about actual performance? Haswell still beats it no matter how ignorant the 5Ghz SB owners try to be.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
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A lot of lowend P4s ran way above 3.3Ghz for considerably cheaper than 300.

Or are you talking about actual performance? Haswell still beats it no matter how ignorant the 5Ghz SB owners try to be.

Indirectly insulting people is a dick move bud.



So, for gaming (with a new title, this is repeated over and over in the HardOCP review) at the same clock speed, 4770K is ~10% faster than 2600/2700K.

Again, this is repeated OVER and OVER and OVER again. 10% is actually on the higher end of gaming gaps, with some titles showing less gains. With that understood :

What percentage is 5Ghz compared to 4.5Ghz? Ah yes, almost exactly the same percentage (actually a shade higher).

IN OTHER WORDS A 5GHZ SB is the SAME SPEED AS A 4.5GHZ HW. SAME IF YOU DO THE MATH AND CALC A ~4.7Ghz IVY IN THERE.

Now if you wanna talk non gaming, there are a few things where Haswell shines. If you wanna talk de-lidding, then Ivy @ 4.8-5.0 is king. If you wanna talk things where the AVX2 shines, then Haswell can really rock. If you want to talk non-OC numbers, HW > Ivy > SB.

All that said, for the typical gamer/OC type, the TRUTH is that IB/Haswell has approximately ZERO improvement.

I've had three SBs, three IBs, and a single Haswell. What do I run now? Oh yeah, a SB. Why? Because it's the coolest running of the three and I don't want to de-lid. Hell I can run 4.5Ghz with just ambient case air flow if I want to run quietly.
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,118
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91
It's been the most boring possible couple of gens imaginable for desktop enthusiast/OC crowd.

That is definitely true if you are coming at it from the performance perspective alone.

But if you add into the picture the power aspects of that performance, things have moved along nicely.

My dual-core SB laptop gets stupid hot, it is physically impossible to keep it on my lap, when I game using the iGPU.

Now I'm not talking intensive gaming either, this is old school Lord of the Realms 2 and Alpha Centauri type gaming.

I would love to have the same performance, I am enthusiastic about playing these games and I am enthusiastic about not burning my nads, but at the lower power consumption envelope of an IB or a HW.
 

Ben90

Platinum Member
Jun 14, 2009
2,866
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0
Indirectly insulting people is a dick move bud.
I possess the rare ability of being able to tell when people are being purposefully obtuse over the internet. The OP isn't looking for an actual answer, he is just trying to get people to believe in the ideas that he himself wants to believe for whatever reason.

It's really no matter. We all know that while Haswell isn't the speed king we were all hoping for, it does edge out Sandy Bridge in pretty much all but a few benchmarks when both are overclocked.

I think a lot of people forgot how few Sandy Bridge chips actually hit 5Ghz. Would you guys agree that the number is around 10%? The number Asus gives us of HW chips that are able to do 4.8Ghz is around 10%.
 
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NTMBK

Lifer
Nov 14, 2011
10,269
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That is definitely true if you are coming at it from the performance perspective alone.

But if you add into the picture the power aspects of that performance, things have moved along nicely.

My dual-core SB laptop gets stupid hot, it is physically impossible to keep it on my lap, when I game using the iGPU.

Now I'm not talking intensive gaming either, this is old school Lord of the Realms 2 and Alpha Centauri type gaming.

I would love to have the same performance, I am enthusiastic about playing these games and I am enthusiastic about not burning my nads, but at the lower power consumption envelope of an IB or a HW.

Lord of the Realms 2 and Alpha Centauri? Honestly, a Bobcat netbook would have been a better choice. I've been playing Dawn of War on my C60 netbook, and it runs beautifully. (Even on battery, on my lap.)
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,118
59
91
Lord of the Realms 2 and Alpha Centauri? Honestly, a Bobcat netbook would have been a better choice. I've been playing Dawn of War on my C60 netbook, and it runs beautifully. (Even on battery, on my lap.)

If all I did was play decade old games then I'd agree, but unfortunately my wife expects me to also get some work done on this thing and that part of my day does require/benefit from the CPU horses.

My kids love it though in the winter, they all want to sit next to dad and have his little heater blowing that nice hot air on their legs and hands. (laptop has side-exhaust)
 

poohbear

Platinum Member
Mar 11, 2003
2,284
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The idea that many SB hit 5ghz or get there easily & pass p95 stress testing is completely unfounded.
 

ruhtraeel

Senior member
Jul 16, 2013
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I possess the rare ability of being able to tell when people are being purposefully obtuse over the internet. The OP isn't looking for an actual answer, he is just trying to get people to believe in the ideas that he himself wants to believe for whatever reason.

It's really no matter. We all know that while Haswell isn't the speed king we were all hoping for, it does edge out Sandy Bridge in pretty much all but a few benchmarks when both are overclocked.

I think a lot of people forgot how few Sandy Bridge chips actually hit 5Ghz. Would you guys agree that the number is around 10%? The number Asus gives us of HW chips that are able to do 4.8Ghz is around 10%.

I think the OP obviously has a viewpoint from what he believes, but he would like to share it for discussion purposes, not for an actual answer. Debate is interesting a lot of the times; both parties are richer after the experience.

Call me bias or whatever (I have an i5 2500k), but from what I see, the performance increases these past 2 generations has been marginal. Also, is it worth the performance increase to have higher temperatures at stock and load? It could be anyone's preference. I have a friend who readily recommended me that processor because it was such a big jump over Nehalem (he has an i7 920), but from what I've seen, an i5 2500k will pretty much never the bottleneck in a system.

If I had the choice to upgrade, I would go for an i7 2700k for hyperthreading, or some chip down the line if there are any necessary new features. Haswell's chips just run too hot for my liking.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
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I possess the rare ability of being able to tell when people are being purposefully obtuse over the internet. The OP isn't looking for an actual answer, he is just trying to get people to believe in the ideas that he himself wants to believe for whatever reason.

It's really no matter. We all know that while Haswell isn't the speed king we were all hoping for, it does edge out Sandy Bridge in pretty much all but a few benchmarks when both are overclocked.

I think a lot of people forgot how few Sandy Bridge chips actually hit 5Ghz. Would you guys agree that the number is around 10%? The number Asus gives us of HW chips that are able to do 4.8Ghz is around 10%.

Now this is true enough. There are mostly minor but real gaps when both are OC, this is particularly true in synthetics and in the apps that take advantage of the improvements in IPC that Haswell offers. For pure gaming, all three are a toss-up.

Indeed 5Ghz is not common with SB, just like 4.7 isn't common with Ivy and 4.5 not common with Haswell. However, they are all typical top-end numbers with safe volts and good air cooling. I had two 5Ghz SBs, a 2500k and a 2700k, my 2600k topped at 4.9Ghz, needed too many volts to hit 5Ghz in a safe manner for my purposes. All IBT/Prime stable, first I shot for 24hr, then realized that was insane, and went for 8hr (mainly because if it's stable to 8hr it will be stable to 24hr just as easily). For a while I would crash randomly between 1hr-8hr, and finally found it wasn't the CPUs, it was a ram stick that had gone bad on me

Silicon lottery makes things less clear. If you get a poor SB, then IB/HW look like better leaps. If one had a great SB, but went to an unlucky Ivy, then it is tempting to go back (this happened to be on three successive Ivy 3770ks, 1 DOA, two mediocre ones).

Probably watercooling + very good lapping helps lessen the lottery frustration, though then you run into yet another barrier of the TIM lottery. As we've seen from great work from others, the TIM can really vary in luck as well.

I don't want to be seen as denying the actual FACT that Ivy/HW have real, measurable, and undeniable IPC improvements. Nor that Haswell for apps that match well, beats even those IPC numbers (along with the rare app that doesn't really move the needle). Nor is it deniable that stock v stock (eg; 99% of the actual desktop world in it's entirety) IB/HW were jumps forward in performance, even if not huge for the most part. And it's particularly not even possible to debate the fact that the bare-die TIM/IHS-less mobile Ivy/Hw parts are superb improvements from the 32nm SB.

In the pure and limited context of OC v OC gamer CPUs, however. SB/IB/HW = meh. Pick one. They're all good. Depending on luck, any one of the three could end up the best, by margins almost always less than 10% due to the mix of IPC vs. max safe clock ceiling. If my 2700k was a 4.6'er instead of a 5 club, a 4.6 Ivy would look really nice, ditto a 4.4 Haswell. On the same note, get a bum 4.3 Ivy or 4.2 Haswell, and you're faced with the dilemma of whether to try again. Reasonably speaking, 4.3 Ivy and 4.2 Haswell are low range typical OCs, but STILL crazy fast in the big picture. It's not like any of the three will fall flat in gaming whatsoever once in the 4ghz range.
 

Smartazz

Diamond Member
Dec 29, 2005
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The difference between SB to IB and HW might be underwhelming, but it's hard to deny that SB is slower. Given the choice at this point, I'd pick Haswell if I were building a new system. However, since I already have a Sandy Bridge there's no way that I'm upgrading for so little improvement.
 

Nintendesert

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2010
7,761
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The difference between SB to IB and HW might be underwhelming, but it's hard to deny that SB is slower. Given the choice at this point, I'd pick Haswell if I were building a new system. However, since I already have a Sandy Bridge there's no way that I'm upgrading for so little improvement.




This is the issue for me, I've not seen a compelling reason yet to upgrade from my i5@4.4 yet either. That may change however when multithreading programs benefit from more than 4 cores. Nothing I use does and I mostly game and edit photos on my rig.
 

Hubb1e

Senior member
Aug 25, 2011
396
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This is the issue for me, I've not seen a compelling reason yet to upgrade from my i5@4.4 yet either. That may change however when multithreading programs benefit from more than 4 cores. Nothing I use does and I mostly game and edit photos on my rig.

My thoughts exactly. My 2500k runs at 4.4 ghz and I could probably go higher but my cheap motherboard and lack of needing any more speed keep it at 4.4. But, when and if new games come out that actually benefit from more than 4 threads, then I just might upgrade. But as it stands, the incremental improvements aren't worth an upgrade.
 

Belkov

Member
Feb 26, 2013
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The difference between SB to IB and HW might be underwhelming, but it's hard to deny that SB is slower. Given the choice at this point, I'd pick Haswell if I were building a new system. However, since I already have a Sandy Bridge there's no way that I'm upgrading for so little improvement.

This...

This is the issue for me, I've not seen a compelling reason yet to upgrade from my i5@4.4 yet either. That may change however when multithreading programs benefit from more than 4 cores. Nothing I use does and I mostly game and edit photos on my rig.

this...

My thoughts exactly. My 2500k runs at 4.4 ghz and I could probably go higher but my cheap motherboard and lack of needing any more speed keep it at 4.4. But, when and if new games come out that actually benefit from more than 4 threads, then I just might upgrade. But as it stands, the incremental improvements aren't worth an upgrade.

and this...

To argue or not to argue - doesn't matter, because the answers of this thread are over here...

Yes, HW is the fastest of the three, but the only reason to choose HW rather than SB or IB is building an absolutely new rig. Even in mobile solution it's not worth it to change with HW.

I'm using my 2500k at 4.2GHz and in a real world situations i even need less - stock clock is absolutely enough for now. So what's the point to upgrade when i can just clock a little...


Ps.: I'm sorry for my "rusty" english language skills...
 
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PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
21,733
565
126
The difference between SB to IB and HW might be underwhelming, but it's hard to deny that SB is slower. Given the choice at this point, I'd pick Haswell if I were building a new system. However, since I already have a Sandy Bridge there's no way that I'm upgrading for so little improvement.

No reason not to buy haswell brand new. Intel has really tight supply control so most brand new SB and IB chips that you can find still cost the same as a haswell equivalent. If you already have SB or IB then haswell is a side grade that isn't worth the effort of upgrading, much less the cost IMO.
 

blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
8,548
2
0
Well I see you have a 2500k @4.4, but I o/c'd two for friends and got 5 ghz and 4.8 ghz at low volts... A lot of people hit 5 ghz and for sake of argument you could compare the 2700 vs 3770 or whatever. I don't really agree that they are faster after you do a reasonably aggressive/safe o/c on all of them.

They are faster. I went from SB to IVB and the IVB at a 500mhz deficit is still faster than the SB. I went from a 2600k that could do 5ghz, specifically, and the IVB 3770k is still faster. I tested this by doing various synthetic benchmarks such as cinebench among others. Even games reported higher framerates with an IVB at 4.5ghz compared to a SB at 5ghz.

People have to stop looking at only the clockspeed. It is true that the overall clockspeed may potentially be higher on the SB (depending on the silicon lottery) - but you will still get better performance out of a Haswell than a SB in probably every instance, even with a large clockspeed deficit. Due to IPC improvements, a Haswell with an 800-900mhz clockspeed deficit will be faster than a sandy bridge.

I'm not saying it's enough of a gap to warrant an upgrade. I'm not saying anyone here SHOULD upgrade. They are all great CPUsBut to address your statement that they aren't faster, you are wrong. IVB and Haswell are faster, even with a clockspeed deficit, period.
 
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TidusZ

Golden Member
Nov 13, 2007
1,765
2
81
I possess the rare ability of being able to tell when people are being purposefully obtuse over the internet. The OP isn't looking for an actual answer, he is just trying to get people to believe in the ideas that he himself wants to believe for whatever reason.

It's really no matter. We all know that while Haswell isn't the speed king we were all hoping for, it does edge out Sandy Bridge in pretty much all but a few benchmarks when both are overclocked.

I think a lot of people forgot how few Sandy Bridge chips actually hit 5Ghz. Would you guys agree that the number is around 10%? The number Asus gives us of HW chips that are able to do 4.8Ghz is around 10%.

Actually it was more like 50% frustration and 50% serious question, both because planetary annihilation runs like crap on large planets with 4+ players despite having o/c ivy bridge and more than enough videocard power for the game. I need a processor that's a good bit faster to run it well and there are no options.
 

BallaTheFeared

Diamond Member
Nov 15, 2010
8,115
0
71


19% faster than SB clock for clock.



14% faster than SB clock for clock



24% faster than SB clock for clock


Didn't see it mentioned, I wonder what his uncore was at.

Anyways, another nice thing about Haswell over Sandy Bridge for me was while Haswell runs hotter (air vs custom loop as well), it's generally faster than my SB system was.. More importantly it uses about half the power OC vs OC, so it's faster and uses a boat load less power. It makes sense to me personally. I wouldn't have complained about more performance, or higher overclocking potential, but I really can't complain about faster and lower power consumption, I really don't care if it runs hot in a linpack while nearly doubling the output of SB.
 

aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 28, 2005
20,882
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<--- has been upgrading GPU + I/O + home network infrastructure more so then CPU / Motherboard lately... so OP i feel your pain...
However redirect elsewhere for when cpu/motherboards become worthwhile again like i did...
300 on a processor + 100-200 on a board = 400-500 dollars.... spent on either SSD's or a new GPU in where u do notice a difference drastically, or upgrading router + spaming wifi AP's all over the house... where even if u were in the bathroom, you'd still get all 5 bars!

Has been appreciating the improvements way more here as they are very noticiable... vs watching cpu numbers jump up to crazy numbers without seeing anything to gain.

Im waiting on IVY-E honestly... however if my 990X can hold out for HAS-E i'll definitely go on a 10 core.
And looking at progress, unless i have a catastrophic hardware failure.. i just might make it.... im not missing much as it is... and probably wont on IVY-E.
However i need to see real IVY-E numbers first.. and if a 6x6 gamers platform comes out... well... as in aliens.. "game overs man... game overs.." there goes my entire budget on a 12t/24c tower.
 
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