$35,000 Tesla Model III Is Coming In 2017

[Fire&Blood]

300 mile range on the S/X is not doable and the driving compromises necessary to get close to the 300 mile mark, a sane person could not drive like daily, especially not with all that torque at disposal at any given time. There doesn't seem to be much room for weight reduction, so a 100 kWh battery seems necessary to achieve that range with the same mindset as with driving a ICE car. And still the range is less than that since a ICE car driver gets to "procrastinate" the quick trip to a nearby gas station while the EV driver has to compromise sooner as the charge is used up unless they are lucky to charge while at work. One could own a EV without anxiety and with minimal battery degradation (<10% over 10 years) but there are many variables, crucial one is opportunity to charge while at work.


In cold climates, a garage goes a long way not only for charging and limiting climate impact on battery but also to keep the bumper and headlights free of accumulating snow and ice since it doesn't have an engine to keep the front warm. Some Norwegian posted a youtube videos detailing practical issues he encountered in daily real life situations. Snow and ice easily disable the parking sensors.


Some issues are sure to be deal breakers for many, fortunately I could work around them if the car is indeed a BMW 3 competitor.

 

[nk215]

200 miles EV for $35K is an insane price. It will sell like hot cake. I&#8217;ll get one to replace my beater (3 series).

I am pretty sure they&#8217;ll make more money from consumer somehow. The battery replacement may be $7-10K for example (please note Tesla battery replacement is ~12K pre-paid. The replacement battery for model S only carries a 1 year warranty). At the end, a consumer may not save as much $$ as they've hoped.

Does anybody think thieves will steal the battery pack from model 3? Model S doesn&#8217;t get close to rough neighborhood but Model III will.

 

[tweakmonkey]

I think the battery packs are probably going to be pretty dang hard to steal. I imagine it would weigh 700 lbs or something and could be locked in using proprietary tools. Then it would be covered in ID tags / serial #s, it could even have something like a MAC address.

 

[A5]

And it's not like it is easy to split up and sell as something else, unless there's a huge black market for raw li-ion cells that I'm not aware of.

 

[TheAdvocate]

Interesting...

http://green.autoblog.com/2014/07/31/tesla-reportedly-selling-like-gangbusters-in-china/

 

[RayFromCt]

Thank you for posting this information.

 

[Fire&Blood]

USA made car sells well in China while (some) United States want to ban it...

Anyway, the battery is a stressed member of the chassis and weighs up to 1400 lbs depending on option chosen so battery theft implies vehicle theft. Since the car has 3G reception, if acting immediately one could track it and interact with it via app. Maybe even push a self destruct command if hope of recovery is gone :twisted:

 

[JEDI]

4 years later from my OP, altho the base $35k Model 3 is offered, they're not making them.

http://money.cnn.com/2018/05/25/technology/tesla-model-3-pricing/index.html

Tesla (TSLA) hasn't started building these base-level Model 3s though. There's more money to be made delivering option-heavy Model 3's.

options like:
- Battery upgrade (+$9000 for 90 more miles, AND better acceleration)
- Interior upgrades
- Paint and wheels (+$1000 for any color other than Black. Channeling Henry Ford?)
- Autopilot

 

[Kaido]

4 years later from my OP, altho the base $35k Model 3 is offered, they're not making them.

http://money.cnn.com/2018/05/25/technology/tesla-model-3-pricing/index.html

Tesla (TSLA) hasn't started building these base-level Model 3s though. There's more money to be made delivering option-heavy Model 3's.

options like:
- Battery upgrade (+$9000 for 90 more miles, AND better acceleration)
- Interior upgrades
- Paint and wheels (+$1000 for any color other than Black. Channeling Henry Ford?)
- Autopilot

Yeah, on Twitter Musk said they'd run out of money & crash otherwise. Looks like they need to sell about 120k more cars before they can ship the base model.

With production, 1st you need achieve target rate & then smooth out flow to achieve target cost. Shipping min cost Model 3 right away wd cause Tesla to lose money & die. Need 3 to 6 months after 5k/wk to ship $35k Tesla & live.

I'm curious as to how popular the base model is going to be...RWD, 220-mile battery, no self-driving stuff. I mean, you can buy a Chevy Bolt, right now, today, for $37.5k base ($30k after Federal tax rebate), which has a 238-mile range & is front-wheel drive...if you're not going to spring for Autopilot, then aside from if you like the Model 3's design as a primary purchase factor, why wait?

 

[Fire&Blood]

If Tesla can endure another year, down the road they'll be in position to capture significant market share. X is a luxury SUV, S is a luxury sedan, the 3 will lose federal incentives before the base model is available and even the base model is still not cheap enough to truly go after Accords and Camry's. CUV's and compact sedans, that's what Tesla needs to gain serious market share, at least here in the US. I'm not sure Tesla will have enough time to drive down the costs enough to produce <$30k MSRP vehicles before someone else can pull it off. Gas prices are creeping back up, a 6 sec 0-60 compact sedan for $25k and a $30k CUV will open the floodgates to mass adoption, whoever can build them first

 

[Kaido]

If Tesla can endure another year, down the road they'll be in position to capture significant market share. X is a luxury SUV, S is a luxury sedan, the 3 will lose federal incentives before the base model is available and even the base model is still not cheap enough to truly go after Accords and Camry's. CUV's and compact sedans, that's what Tesla needs to gain serious market share, at least here in the US. I'm not sure Tesla will have enough time to drive down the costs enough to produce <$30k MSRP vehicles before someone else can pull it off. Gas prices are creeping back up, a 6 sec 0-60 compact sedan for $25k and a $30k CUV will open the floodgates to mass adoption, whoever can build them first

I think long-term, Tesla is going to win out in the electric-car race because, while their self-driving technology currently isn't perfect, they're so far ahead of literally everyone else that it's not even funny, and within the next couple of years, they're going to have half a million cars with self-driving tech on the roads. If I were an average consumer looking at an EV and I looked at a regular EV with adaptive cruise control vs. a self-driving car for around the same price, there'd be no contest. Dang, I need to put some money into Tesla stock! lol.

I'm hoping that they'll stick the upcoming Roadster 2.0's 620-mile battery system into the X/S because having a "real" electric range would be amazing. Even the 300-mile battery on the Model 3 is a bit too tight for how much I drive with work on a daily basis right now. But man, that highway self-driving stuff would be soooooo nice, especially in traffic!

 

[XavierMace]

I think long-term, Tesla is going to win out in the electric-car race because, while their self-driving technology currently isn't perfect, they're so far ahead of literally everyone else that it's not even funny, and within the next couple of years, they're going to have half a million cars with self-driving tech on the roads. If I were an average consumer looking at an EV and I looked at a regular EV with adaptive cruise control vs. a self-driving car for around the same price, there'd be no contest. Dang, I need to put some money into Tesla stock! lol.

Seriously man, enough with the kool-aid. You're worse than an Apple Fanboy. First off, they AREN'T the same price. You can't buy a $35k Model 3. You can't even just go out and buy a more expensive one like every other EV on the planet. That alone rules them out for the average consumer. I don't know ANYBODY who's told me they ordered an F150, Accord, Camry, etc and it would be here in 6-9 months. The average consumer doesn't pre-order cars.

If I was looking to get an EV or Hybrid right now (and I've considered it), I'd start with ones I can actually buy and drive now. Autotrader shows there's 4 used Model 3's available in my area, ranging from $57k and 700 miles to $65k and 2,000 miles. The only EV I'm seeing right now that comes close to that price wise is a fully spec'd out BMW i3 at $52k before credits/incentives and there's a reason (well several) why the i3's don't sell like hot cakes.

I can get a brand new Volt (which is admittedly a hybrid but with some major advantages) with lane assist, adaptive cruise, and braking assist for $40k or a Bolt EV for $43k (both before incentives/credits) if I really wanted a pure EV. Or a Leaf which also has the same assist features for $38k (again before credits/incentives) putting it a full $20k cheaper than the cheapest Model 3 in my area. With a bit of work, I could probably pick up a spare new Prius with the savings. Or a Kia Soul. I think for the average consumer a better driving assist package isn't worth the price of a second car. Especially since that 300 mile range is right in the middle of that awkward range where it's often not enough for a road trip unless you're willing to stop and find a place to charge but if you're just doing city driving, far less range is generally fine. The Volt's 410 mile range is enough to get me to any of my normal out of state destinations on a single tank/charge. If I was looking to just a daily commute EV, I'd go with one of the smaller and drastically cheaper options.

Tesla's tech is only "so far ahead" if you ignore the people dying using it and don't bother to research Musk's safety statements. Despite the name, it's (currently at least) a driving assist and they (Tesla) bring that up every accident. They made zero attempt to address why a Model X drove into a stationary highway barrier back in March in California. They blamed the driver for not paying attention (which is accurate to be sure) and then proceeded to regurgitate their normal safety PR song. Think about that one for a minute. People grabbed their pitchforks when the Uber car hit a pedestrian, at night, illegally crossing the street, in between lights. The Model X hit a concrete divider for an off ramp in broad daylight and people are apparently fine with that? Basic lane assist should have prevented that from happening. How many people have died from one of the "inferior" driving assist systems on Tesla's competitors driving into a highway divider?

Waymo is wildly far ahead of Tesla when it comes to self driving as their vehicles are actually self driving and they haven't killed anyone. I'd put money into their stock long before Tesla's.

 

[Kaido]

they AREN'T the same price. You can't buy a $35k Model 3. You can't even just go out and buy a more expensive one like every other EV on the planet. That alone rules them out for the average consumer. I don't know ANYBODY who's told me they ordered an F150, Accord, Camry, etc and it would be here in 6-9 months. The average consumer doesn't pre-order cars.

To clarify, I was speaking long-term in that paragraph (i.e. "within the next couple of years"), so unless GM happens to release a self-driving solution (other than Super Cruise) within the next couple of years, say by 2020 - when you can (hopefully) order a Model 3 & not have a to wait half a year - I wouldn't want to buy something like a $42k loaded Chevy Bolt when I could have a $40k Model 3 (base car + Autopilot). If you need a car now, today, then the Model 3 isn't a viable option for buying new because it's simply not available.

I don't disagree that Tesla does have a serious issue with the Autopilot system literally killing people in certain situations, and I think their PR response is awful, even if technically true - the driver should always be held 100% liable for control of their vehicle, especially when you make the choice to use a beta self-driving system on a $60 to $160k purchase, but I also think that after driving thousands of miles in Autopilot mode, people get lulled into a sense of security, which is dangerous with the current system as-is. The Drive has an excellent head-to-head with Autopilot vs. Supercruise, and imo GM was much smarter about the safety features of the system, especially with the light-up steering wheel to let you know when it's engaged, which has been a problem for Tesla, because people will think they have Autopilot engaged, when they really don't, because all you get is a little dashboard indicator light on the S & X:

http://www.thedrive.com/tech/17083/...esla-autopilot-vs-gm-supercruise-head-to-head

Waymo is doing a lot of very interesting things, but they also rely heavily on simulations, and simulations can't account for much of what happens in the real world:

https://www.theverge.com/transporta.../tesla-waymo-self-driving-car-data-simulation

I'm curious to see if Tesla can pull off full self-driving capabilities with just their camera & other non-LIDAR sensor suite. They've already long-overshot their deadline for when they though FSD would be available, which means it's a much more complicated problem to tackle than they originally anticipated. And with cameras, what happens in say a snowstorm, when they get covered up, and that may be the time when you really want the self-driving feature to be enabled to help you in low-visibility, slippery conditions? I think we have at least five years of growing pains ahead of us in terms of getting a full self-driving system up & running to the point where it's truly reliable, but maybe with how many Tesla's they're pumping out & how they apply AI to big data through their collection system to solve the zillions of driving issues that exist, they'll be able to figure out something sooner. That remains to be seen; as of today, highway Autopilot isn't a far cry different from any modern car with TACC/LSF/AEB/LKAS/etc. In the meantime, like you said, Waymo hasn't killed anyone yet, which is a big positive in their favor.

 

[Midwayman]

I'm curious to see if Tesla can pull off full self-driving capabilities with just their camera & other non-LIDAR sensor suite.

Unlikely for real self driving instead of a fancy driver assist. They are relying on a breakthrough in machine vision. LIDAR is going to power the first gen high level 3 and level 4 cars. It'll probably be on the 2nd. Its not that its impossible, but they are giving themselves a very difficult problem. Compute will catch up eventually. Probably not soon enough to make existing non-lidar systems relevant.

 

[Kaido]

Unlikely for real self driving instead of a fancy driver assist. They are relying on a breakthrough in machine vision. LIDAR is going to power the first gen high level 3 and level 4 cars. It'll probably be on the 2nd. Its not that its impossible, but they are giving themselves a very difficult problem. Compute will catch up eventually. Probably not soon enough to make existing non-lidar systems relevant.

I'd be curious to see if (1) the industry advances LIDAR technology significantly over time (smaller/better/less mechanical/vastly cheaper/etc.), and (2) if Tesla would adopt that technology. They're already a full 2 years behind on their much-touted fully-automated coast-to-coast trip, and there's still no ETA for FSD, even though they're selling it as a $3,000 pre-order option on the Model X. Granted, they parted ways with Mobile Eye in the middle of it, and I recognize that development is iterative & they want to get it right (and I'm sure they will, eventually - we never thought true voice recognition would exist either, but the most current implementations of both Amazon's Echo Alexa & Google's Home Assistant mic systems are really fantastic), so we're mostly in the waiting period right now. Five years from now, FSD cars will probably be common in every city across America. Maybe

 

[XavierMace]

Waymo is doing a lot of very interesting things, but they also rely heavily on simulations, and simulations can't account for much of what happens in the real world:

https://www.theverge.com/transporta.../tesla-waymo-self-driving-car-data-simulation
.

I think you're under-estimating where Waymo is at and still wildly overestimating where Tesla is at. Waymo/Google did a very gradual rollout. In light of Tesla's and Uber's mishaps, one might say Waymo took the more prudent path. They now have over 5 million miles and 600 self driving vehicles on the road. 1 million of those miles were between Nov 2017 and Feb 2018. I believe I saw mention that they're on pace for 1 million miles a month at this point, but I could be mistaken on that, and expect to be at a million miles a day by 2020. I don't know what percentage of them are here in Phoenix, but I can tell you I can't go anywhere without seeing at least one. Obviously weather wise we provide pretty ideal conditions. But this is active, heavy, urban usage (day and night) and they're now taking passengers.

That's a Waymo van in the second left turn lane getting off stop and go traffic on the I-10. This was 4:30p on a weekday, meaning mid-rush hour. Tesla isn't even self driving yet (meaning getting from point A to point B without a human driver) and they've had multiple fatal accidents. I don't think there's a chance in hell Tesla's going to have true self driving cars on the road in 2020.

 

[Kaido]

I think you're under-estimating where Waymo is at and still wildly overestimating where Tesla is at. Waymo/Google did a very gradual rollout. In light of Tesla's and Uber's mishaps, one might say Waymo took the more prudent path. They now have over 5 million miles and 600 self driving vehicles on the road. 1 million of those miles were between Nov 2017 and Feb 2018. I believe I saw mention that they're on pace for 1 million miles a month at this point, but I could be mistaken on that, and expect to be at a million miles a day by 2020. I don't know what percentage of them are here in Phoenix, but I can tell you I can't go anywhere without seeing at least one. Obviously weather wise we provide pretty ideal conditions. But this is active, heavy, urban usage (day and night) and they're now taking passengers.

That's a Waymo van in the second left turn lane getting off stop and go traffic on the I-10. This was 4:30p on a weekday, meaning mid-rush hour. Tesla isn't even self driving yet (meaning getting from point A to point B without a human driver) and they've had multiple fatal accidents. I don't think there's a chance Tesla's going to have true self driving cars on the road in 2020.

That's awesome! And just to be clear, I'm not anti-Waymo - I'm pro-self-driving, and that's not only limited to Tesla. I'm excited that anyone is working on this stuff because I think it's super cool! Ars posted a really good article last Friday on Waymo.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/0...gle-with-driverless-cars-waymo-moves-forward/

One thing i really like about Waymo's approach is that they have a Phantom-style service:

Instead, Waymo has two teams that will monitor each car while it’s in service. Fleet Response Specialists possess valid driver’s licenses and are responsible for monitoring the status of all Waymo vehicles in real-time using a virtual tool. A separate Rider Support team provides customer support and is available to communicate with passengers at any point. Waymo specified that it had trained 70 Fleet Response Specialists and 23 Rider Support team members—suggesting that when a service does roll out, it will be on quite a significant scale.

So basically like On-Star, but for self-driving cars. As far as I know, Tesla doesn't have any kind of live "backup" service like that, other than the basic phone support lines (maybe someone with a Tesla can clarify the status of this), and still has no posted ETA for FSD, whereas Waymo has already partnered up for 20k fully self-driving iPace cars & ordered 62k Pacificas. Like the Ars article said, they wouldn't have done that if they weren't extremely confident about moving forward on a commercial service within the next year or two, because otherwise that would be a huge financial loss if that inventory were to sit around too long. Whereas Tesla's cars are running into stationary firetrucks (again), stationary cop cars, and barrier after barrier, and catching on fire when they crash. Granted, that doesn't account for the millions of miles driven safely with Autopilot, but as you mentioned, Waymo doesn't have any negative history thus far, which is a strong positive in their favor.

 

[XavierMace]

To be clear, I'm not anti-Tesla overall. I think autopilot is wildly over sold and underdeveloped considering it's in public use. I do have serious concerns about their ability to ramp up production which in turn means I do have concerns about their survival. I do think they are nice looking cars and I do think they have a definite edge on battery tech. I don't think they necessarily have an edge on the driving assist front, I think they're just more reckless and using the general public as their guinea pigs.

 

[Kaido]

I think autopilot is wildly over sold and underdeveloped considering it's in public use.

110% agree. I hope to get something like a Model Y at some point (electric self-driving compact crossover), but I'll wait until they figure out production (and make sure they're still alive long-term, lol) & iron out the major kill-you kinks in Autopilot.

 

[ponyo]

To be clear, I'm not anti-Tesla overall. I think autopilot is wildly over sold and underdeveloped considering it's in public use. I do have serious concerns about their ability to ramp up production which in turn means I do have concerns about their survival. I do think they are nice looking cars and I do think they have a definite edge on battery tech. I don't think they necessarily have an edge on the driving assist front, I think they're just more reckless and using the general public as their guinea pigs.

I've full confidence they will solve the production issues. In the big picture, it's just small bump in the road. I'm also have zero concern about their survival. Wall St. will give them more money. I do think this public beta testing of Autopilot is huge legal liability concern. That does worry me as Tesla shareholder. I'll probably buy Tesla car 5-10 years from now once everything is refined and fixed. I don't really have the desire to be beta tester at the moment.

 

[tweakmonkey]

The self driving thing is far from decided. Tesla's the first to show their hand but there are a zillion dollars fishing for that. I mean Google has been doing the self driving car thing for years.

The thing Tesla has over everyone for now is supercharger stations which are everywhere. Check the map on this page:
https://www.tesla.com/supercharger

Until anyone can use their superchargers or the public/competitors builds 1000s of nice reliable charging stations, Tesla will have a huge advantage. Tesla styles are cool. They're RWD, they handle well. They're a lot more appealing to a typical BMW or MB owner than a Bolt etc. They have a lot to learn in building them, though. The Bolt is great BTW. I think the Leaf and the next gen with 200+ miles will be really huge too.

 

[XavierMace]

The self driving thing is far from decided. Tesla's the first to show their hand but there are a zillion dollars fishing for that. I mean Google has been doing the self driving car thing for years.

The thing Tesla has over everyone for now is supercharger stations which are everywhere. Check the map on this page:
https://www.tesla.com/supercharger

Until anyone can use their superchargers or the public/competitors builds 1000s of nice reliable charging stations, Tesla will have a huge advantage. Tesla styles are cool. They're RWD, they handle well. They're a lot more appealing to a typical BMW or MB owner than a Bolt etc. They have a lot to learn in building them, though. The Bolt is great BTW. I think the Leaf and the next gen with 200+ miles will be really huge too.

Google = Waymo if you weren't aware and for actual self driving they're by far the leader right now.

Superchargers everywhere? Let me guess, you're in California? Phoenix is the 6th largest city in the US and we have 3 whole entire Supercharger stations. Now I will give Tesla credit that they've managed to get enough interstate coverage that you can do road trips which is a huge plus. But you're still going to side track for them and find yourself stopping in less than ideal locations in some cases where being there 30 minutes isn't very appealing. AZ to TX? You're stopping in Deming, NM. You know what's in Deming? A Supercharger station. That's the most noteworthy thing there. You're probably going to have to stop in El Paso too. Outside of the coastal states, supercharger stations are hardly "everywhere". San Antonio has none, Houston has two on the outskirts, Austin has 1, Oklahoma City has 1, St Louis 1, Memphis 1... and so on and so on. Our Northern brothers aren't any better off. Vancouver has 1, Calgary has 1, Winnipeg has 1. Meaning you're still having to go out of your way, often quite a bit. At least one of Phoenix's is central-ish to town but still impractical for "in town" driving unless you live in that part of town. The closest one to my parents house is 35 miles. Want to go south the border, say Rocky Point? You're out of luck.

I'm a BMW owner who's considering an SUV in the near future. I could get an X5 40e Hybrid with a 540mi range that can stop anywhere for gas or spend an extra $16k and get a Model X with a 237 mile range (based on starting MSRP for both vehicles). X5 has a higher tow rating as well. There's a variety of personal factors that would come into play for me, but the Model X would be a pretty hard sell. If I built both as I personally would want right now, the price difference between the two is closer to $20k and that's without the $8k self driving upgrade.

They have some definite good selling points against other pure EV's but you pay a LOT for those selling points.

 

[Midwayman]

The self driving thing is far from decided. Tesla's the first to show their hand but there are a zillion dollars fishing for that. I mean Google has been doing the self driving car thing for years.

The thing Tesla has over everyone for now is supercharger stations which are everywhere. Check the map on this page:
https://www.tesla.com/supercharger

Until anyone can use their superchargers or the public/competitors builds 1000s of nice reliable charging stations, Tesla will have a huge advantage. Tesla styles are cool. They're RWD, they handle well. They're a lot more appealing to a typical BMW or MB owner than a Bolt etc. They have a lot to learn in building them, though. The Bolt is great BTW. I think the Leaf and the next gen with 200+ miles will be really huge too.

Great for electric cars in general, but kinda pointless if you're talking about SDC. SDC will probably be available mostly as a service. Short range vehicles that can go find a company charging station between riders. Plus there is nothing stopping gas powered SDC for longer range service. If you don't own the car you'll get the correct vehicle for the trip. Superchargers become a non issue in that environment.

 

[tweakmonkey]

Superchargers everywhere? Let me guess, you're in California? Phoenix is the 6th largest city in the US and we have 3 whole entire Supercharger stations. Now I will give Tesla credit that they've managed to get enough interstate coverage that you can do road trips which is a huge plus. But you're still going to side track for them and find yourself stopping in less than ideal locations in some cases where being there 30 minutes isn't very appealing. AZ to TX? You're stopping in Deming, NM. You know what's in Deming? A Supercharger station. That's the most noteworthy thing there. You're probably going to have to stop in El Paso too. Outside of the coastal states, supercharger stations are hardly "everywhere". San Antonio has none, Houston has two on the outskirts, Austin has 1, Oklahoma City has 1, St Louis 1, Memphis 1... and so on and so on. Our Northern brothers aren't any better off. Vancouver has 1, Calgary has 1, Winnipeg has 1. Meaning you're still having to go out of your way, often quite a bit. At least one of Phoenix's is central-ish to town but still impractical for "in town" driving unless you live in that part of town. The closest one to my parents house is 35 miles. Want to go south the border, say Rocky Point? You're out of luck.

Road trips are the whole point. That's why I'm bringing this up. People saying "I could never buy an EV because X days out of the year I need to take it on a road trip" can make a Tesla work. No other brand has that currently.

In the city isn't what's important. There are tons of public chargers there and most people charge at home. It's when you're in the middle of nowhere that you'll need it and want a fast charger . Tesla has by far the best network and are adding all the time. No other company is close to this, even Chargepoint etc have only a handful of fast chargers (still not as fast as Tesla) in the same density AFAIK. That might change in a few years but it's the sole reason why I'd buy a Tesla *today* to replace my Honda Fit, but not a Bolt.

 

[drnickriviera]

I think widespread adoption will take place once there is a clear winner for DC fast charging. Looks like Chademo may be going out of favor for CCS? If tesla can't get another major car co use use the supercharger network i think it's doomed. VW wants to start putting charging stations at walmart. Have some crazy plan of 2000 charging stations built or under construction by the end of 2019. That would be what? 50% bigger than the supercharger network now?

After watching rich rebuilds on YT, i'm not sure i'd ever want a Tesla. Doing some crappy stuff with replacement parts and salvaged vehicles. I'm surprised they haven't had some lawsuits yet.