37% of Republicans like Putin

[fskimospy]

People are saying this is an act of war. This is not an act of war. But an act of war connotes a military response.

You're putting words in people's mouths. I have not seen a single person advocate a military response.

This is because we don't understand local cultures. What happened in Libya is that HRC bought the whole line about Libya being primed for democracy by a bunch of smooth talking locals. This did not happen, and now Libya is an Islamist hellhole. The fact is that when we see some freedom fighter in East Europe claiming Russian oppression, they might have other motives at play, and Americans are pretty vulnerable to people talking about their love of democracy. The worst case scenario is if America involves itself in accord with what are essentially small-minded local nationalists against other local nationalists.

Do you realize that you just said we don't understand local cultures and then claimed to know the interests and motivations of people in the countries around Russia? As for Russian oppression of Eastern Europe, all you need to do is look at history to see the Russians oppressing Eastern Europe over and over again. If you forget the lessons of history you are doomed to repeat them, and I'm quite sure the people running those countries next to Russia have little desire to see history repeat itself in that way.

And on that topic, you never answered how you would respond if Russia were stationing troops in Mexico, writing a bunch of treaty obligations with Mexico, and then treating American hostility to such events as cause for war. Because this is what we are doing WRT the Baltic states.

I've told you multiple times this is irrelevant.

I think this whole thing about "Russian agents everywhere" is just a sign of American nationalist paranoia.

I wouldn't know, as I don't know anyone who says 'Russian agents everywhere'. This sounds like something that I would hear from a Russian propaganda source, as it is a wildly distorted view of how Americans think.

 

[desura]

You're putting words in people's mouths. I have not seen a single person advocate a military response.



Do you realize that you just said we don't understand local cultures and then claimed to know the interests and motivations of people in the countries around Russia? As for Russian oppression of Eastern Europe, all you need to do is look at history to see the Russians oppressing Eastern Europe over and over again. If you forget the lessons of history you are doomed to repeat them, and I'm quite sure the people running those countries next to Russia have little desire to see history repeat itself in that way.



I've told you multiple times this is irrelevant.



I wouldn't know, as I don't know anyone who says 'Russian agents everywhere'. This sounds like something that I would hear from a Russian propaganda source, as it is a wildly distorted view of how Americans think.

I don't know enough about the petty politics of Eastern Europe to know what is happening. I am saying that it is highly probable that the freedom fighter that you are extolling is just another tyrant. This is an argument for staying out of things that we don't understand.

You refuse to answer the Mexico-Baltic states analogy because you don't like the answer.

Again, with the "foreign influence" dodge.

 

[fskimospy]

I don't know enough about the petty politics of Eastern Europe to know what is happening. I am saying that it is highly probable that the freedom fighter that you are extolling is just another tyrant. This is an argument for staying out of things that we don't understand.

So you don't understand the politics of Eastern Europe but you know that people fighting against Russian aggression are probably tyrants. Can you see how illogical that statement is?

You refuse to answer the Mexico-Baltic states analogy because you don't like the answer.

No, I'm not answering it because it's irrelevant. You seem to be laboring under the delusion that US actions (or imagined actions) somehow excuse Russian aggression. They don't.

Again, with the "foreign influence" dodge.

I have no idea what this means, but all I'm trying to do is reign you back in to the original discussion instead of going off on random tangents.

 

[trenchfoot]

Reminds of this
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/18/sara-firth-resigns-russia-today-lies-anchor_n_5598815.html
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wor...ir-russian-invasion-ukraine-article-1.1712043

Of course you realize that articles of the sort you posted appear as blank pages to those Trump supporters who wish, who fervently wish that Trump will (some day) make good on all that was promised to them by him and that he would never ever lie to them to their faces (like he did at every single rally he's ever held and will hold).

I find it truly amazing how once sold a dangerously decrepit clunker, the new owner will insist that all is good with it and of course, their trust in the person who sold it to them was as good as the fortune they paid for it.

 

[raildogg]

I bet Putin is probably in on the game just like all these world leaders.

Ever see him winking? Like he's mocking the sheep? Seems that way.

He's got these alt-right or whatever they want to be called people fooled. Dudes, this guy is an elite who controls a large country. There is nothing honest in the man just like nothing is honest about a billionaire truther called Trump.

Ya'll are being played and you still love it. Sad.

 

[desura]

So you don't understand the politics of Eastern Europe but you know that people fighting against Russian aggression are probably tyrants. Can you see how illogical that statement is?



No, I'm not answering it because it's irrelevant. You seem to be laboring under the delusion that US actions (or imagined actions) somehow excuse Russian aggression. They don't.



I have no idea what this means, but all I'm trying to do is reign you back in to the original discussion instead of going off on random tangents.

The whole idea of Russian aggression being something the United States getting involved in is because we let a selective slice of Eastern European nationalists set the debate and rhetoric in the United States. Anne Applebaum is a very prominent columnist in the WAPO and she happens to be married to a member of the Polish government. She happens to be very hawkish regarding Russia and she has the WAPO platform and prestige to push her agenda.

Refusal to emphasize with the Russian POV is a moral failure. This conflict is avoidable and unnecessary.

But going back to the OP topic, most Trump voters are indifferent to Putin most likely. He is over there and we are over here. Looking at how our elite media mocks Putin, I think their animus is driven in part due to the elite media's obsession with culture war issues, specifically LGBT, which imo is an illegitimate reason to start a war.

 

[fskimospy]

The whole idea of Russian aggression being something the United States getting involved in is because we let a selective slice of Eastern European nationalists set the debate and rhetoric in the United States.

How do you know this if by your own admission you don't understand the region?

Anne Applebaum is a very prominent columnist in the WAPO and she happens to be married to a member of the Polish government. She happens to be very hawkish regarding Russia and she has the WAPO platform and prestige to push her agenda.

Wait a minute, it sounds like Anne Applebaum would understand the culture of Eastern Europe much better than you, being that she now has family from it. Considering you think that a lack of cultural knowledge is the problem, by that logic you should consider her position superior to your own. Why don't you?

Refusal to emphasize with the Russian POV is a moral failure. This conflict is avoidable and unnecessary.

I imagine you mean 'empathize' and no, it's not a moral failure. Maybe you should consider empathizing with the countries that border Russia and don't want to be invaded by it. That sounds like something moral, no?

But going back to the OP topic, most Trump voters are indifferent to Putin most likely. He is over there and we are over here. Looking at how our elite media mocks Putin, I think their animus is driven in part due to the elite media's obsession with culture war issues, specifically LGBT, which imo is an illegitimate reason to start a war.

It seems increasingly likely to me that you are not actually from the US as no person in the US that I have ever met thinks that media coverage towards Putin is driven by LGBT issues.

 

[desura]

How do you know this if by your own admission you don't understand the region?



Wait a minute, it sounds like Anne Applebaum would understand the culture of Eastern Europe much better than you, being that she now has family from it. Considering you think that a lack of cultural knowledge is the problem, by that logic you should consider her position superior to your own. Why don't you?



I imagine you mean 'empathize' and no, it's not a moral failure. Maybe you should consider empathizing with the countries that border Russia and don't want to be invaded by it. That sounds like something moral, no?



It seems increasingly likely to me that you are not actually from the US as no person in the US that I have ever met thinks that media coverage towards Putin is driven by LGBT issues.

Because as I've said, I've listened to her in debate with Stephen Cohen and I found Cohen more convincing.

I understand the perspective of the Eastern Europeans. That is their fight. It is not our fight.

It is amazing that anyone who isn't 100% against Putin is suddenly a foreign agent. This is McCarthy-like thinking.

 

[fskimospy]

Because as I've said, I've listened to her in debate with Stephen Cohen and I found Cohen more convincing.

I understand the perspective of the Eastern Europeans. That is their fight. It is not our fight.

You just said earlier that we didn't understand their perspective and that's the whole problem. Now you do understand it? What changed?

It is amazing that anyone who isn't 100% against Putin is suddenly a foreign agent. This is McCarthy-like thinking.

Nice attempt at victimhood. I think you're not from the US because the things you are saying about US culture and thinking are ridiculous. I've literally never heard anyone make such a silly statement as the one you said about the US media hating Putin because of LGBT issues. It has nothing to do with your position on Putin.

 

[desura]

You just said earlier that we didn't understand their perspective and that's the whole problem. Now you do understand it? What changed?



Nice attempt at victimhood. I think you're not from the US because the things you are saying about US culture and thinking are ridiculous. I've literally never heard anyone make such a silly statement as the one you said about the US media hating Putin because of LGBT issues. It has nothing to do with your position on Putin.

The USA will do stuff like sponsoring gay rights parades in Eastern European countries, which is anathema to the Russian Orthodox Church. In my observation of elite media organizations, they are highly passionate about LGBT, and will break ethical rules in support of LGBT.

Instead of engaging on the facts, you engage in surmising that I am not American, which to the point, I'm done engaging with you.

 

[fskimospy]

The USA will do stuff like sponsoring gay rights parades in Eastern European countries, which is anathema to the Russian Orthodox Church. In my observation of elite media organizations, they are highly passionate about LGBT, and will break ethical rules in support of LGBT.

Instead of engaging on the facts, you engage in surmising that I am not American, which to the point, I'm done engaging with you.

Right. When you say things like this you indicate you're not actually an American. We don't refer to ourselves as USA. We don't concern ourselves about LGBTQ issues in Russia or Eastern Europe.

I don't care where you are from as your ideas are stupid regardless. I'm just pointing out that you have other failings besides being dumb.

 

[MrSquished]

Trump's daughter likes Putin even more. She is currently vacationing with Putin's girlfriend out in Europe.

no ties with the families. none. none. none whatsoever. Paul Mamafort. burp.

 

[MrSquished]

The USA will do stuff like sponsoring gay rights parades in Eastern European countries, which is anathema to the Russian Orthodox Church. In my observation of elite media organizations, they are highly passionate about LGBT, and will break ethical rules in support of LGBT.

Instead of engaging on the facts, you engage in surmising that I am not American, which to the point, I'm done engaging with you.

so the USA shouldn't sponsor LGBT rights parades in other countries that it may offend, but we should invade countries and bomb them? where do you draw the line.

 

[Tequila]

Trump's daughter likes Putin even more. She is currently vacationing with Putin's girlfriend out in Europe.

no ties with the families. none. none. none whatsoever. Paul Mamafort. burp.

Get your facts straight. I see people on the left is just as susceptible as the right when it comes to fake news. First that vacation with Wendi was in August. Wendi Murdoch has denied she has ever met Putin many times. There is not one single photo of them together. Not that I even give a shit about any Murdoch but it is all made up rumors with no proof.

Oh and btw Ivanka is also friends with Chelsea Clinton.

 

[outriding]

Get your facts straight. I see people on the left is just as susceptible as the right when it comes to fake news. First that vacation with Wendi was in August. Wendi Murdoch has denied she has ever met Putin many times. There is not one single photo of them together. Not that I even give a shit about any Murdoch but it is all made up rumors with no proof.

Oh and btw Ivanka is also friends with Chelsea Clinton.

LOL you would rather see Trump's daughter hangout with the possible GF of Putin than Chelsea..

 

[cubby1223]

LOL you would rather see Trump's daughter hangout with the possible GF of Putin than Chelsea..

First, how the hell did you pull that conclusion out of what you quoted?

Second, are you saying you want to control who someone can and cannot be friends with?

 

[bshole]

It seems increasingly likely to me that you are not actually from the US as no person in the US that I have ever met thinks that media coverage towards Putin is driven by LGBT issues.

IKR.... that was the largest non sequitur I have seen in quite awhile.

HEADLINE: Media Coverage of LGBT - The Putin Conspiracy

LoL.

 

[desura]

http://observer.com/2016/11/why-vladimir-putin-hates-us/

"
Just like Islamists, Kremlin ideologists claim that, since the West is spiritually attacking Russia and Orthodoxy with feminist and LGBT propaganda, all of Moscow’s responses—including aggressive military moves—are therefore defensive.

To be fair to Putin and his ilk, we’ve been doing a good job of making their anti-Western polemics seem plausible. Under President Obama, the State Department really has pushed feminism and LGBT rights hard—including in Russia. Washington’s official effort to coerce small, impoverished countries like Macedoniainto accepting our post-modern views of sexuality has raised Russian ire, not least because Macedonia is a majority-Orthodox country."

This article is pretty fantastic in getting it from their perspective.

 

[Jhhnn]

Because as I've said, I've listened to her in debate with Stephen Cohen and I found Cohen more convincing.

I understand the perspective of the Eastern Europeans. That is their fight. It is not our fight.

It is amazing that anyone who isn't 100% against Putin is suddenly a foreign agent. This is McCarthy-like thinking.

Eastern Europeans are obviously pleased to be Nato members or it wouldn't be that way. Unlike the Soviet era following WW2 their involvement is completely voluntary. They seem to remember that rather well & want to avoid it in the future. One thing they're sure of is that the US won't invade & that all members have renounced territorial claims outside the established borders. That can't be said of Russia, obviously. Even non-aligned European nations are wary of renewed Russian militarism-

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-nato-summit-nordics-idUSKCN0ZO1EO

It's not a good time to show any weakness, obviously. There's plenty of room for everybody to de-escalate & step away from the stupid but that won't happen until Ukraine & Russia settle their differences. If Trump can facilitate that I'm all for it.

 

[Jhhnn]

http://observer.com/2016/11/why-vladimir-putin-hates-us/

"
Just like Islamists, Kremlin ideologists claim that, since the West is spiritually attacking Russia and Orthodoxy with feminist and LGBT propaganda, all of Moscow’s responses—including aggressive military moves—are therefore defensive.

To be fair to Putin and his ilk, we’ve been doing a good job of making their anti-Western polemics seem plausible. Under President Obama, the State Department really has pushed feminism and LGBT rights hard—including in Russia. Washington’s official effort to coerce small, impoverished countries like Macedoniainto accepting our post-modern views of sexuality has raised Russian ire, not least because Macedonia is a majority-Orthodox country."

This article is pretty fantastic in getting it from their perspective.

Putin plays conservative Christians the same way that our own right wing plays them? Color me unsurprised. They're both coming from the same paternalistic plutocratic perspective.

 

[desura]

Putin plays conservative Christians the same way that our own right wing plays them? Color me unsurprised. They're both coming from the same paternalistic plutocratic perspective.

Did you read the article?

My way of seeing it is that the aggressive social liberalism of HRC makes relations with Russia worse in a completely unnecessary way. This is one of the few areas where I'm glad she is not president.

 

[Jhhnn]

Did you read the article?

My way of seeing it is that the aggressive social liberalism of HRC makes relations with Russia worse in a completely unnecessary way. This is one of the few areas where I'm glad she is not president.

While there are true believers both here & in Russia they're simply exploited by insincere pandering from their leadership. Putin wants to restore the Russian Empire the same way that Trump wants to make America great again & the welfare of the common man has nothing to do with it. Quite the contrary. They're simply being played in the interests of the international right wing plutocracy.

 

[desura]

While there are true believers both here & in Russia they're simply exploited by insincere pandering from their leadership. Putin wants to restore the Russian Empire the same way that Trump wants to make America great again & the welfare of the common man has nothing to do with it. Quite the contrary. They're simply being played in the interests of the international right wing plutocracy.

I don't quite see it that way. While there is a plutocracy, they tend to operate on ideals. Koch and Soros are both idealists. Most billionaires who get involved in politics are rich to the point that they can care about ideals. It is the middle income people who work to rig the system for their own benefit because they have to to survive.

You have to ask the question what is the point of all of this geopolitical standoff, and the answer is that it is to preserve freedom and a way of life. This is the ideals. You also have to consider that it is possible that Putin is in fact genuine when he talks about how he doesn't want the West's cultural influence. And as the standoff continues, the more he will dig in and he will likely genuinely adopt those positions as ideals.

This happened in Pakistan and the founder, Jinnah. He became much more Islamic over time, as tensions with India increased.

Trump by the way is way outside of the plutocracy. While he is rich, he is far far away from the Davos crowd. All rich people are not the same.

 

[Jhhnn]

Trump by the way is way outside of the plutocracy. While he is rich, he is far far away from the Davos crowd. All rich people are not the same.

He obviously aspires to it.

Koch Bros? Fascists are idealists, 'tis true.

 

[desura]

He obviously aspires to it.

Koch Bros? Fascists are idealists, 'tis true.

No they aren't. They are libertarian idealists. At least get that right.

And what about Soros? He's just a good guy who happens to be a billionaire? I think he does what he does out of idealism and the experience of being a refugee as a young person.