3870 X2 Crossfire

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BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
2,996
126
1. NVIDIA drivers allow the user to create or edit profiles, which minimizes the "no scaling" issue.
Adding a profile doesn't guarantee any kind of scaling or that scaling and/or the game will work properly. Many games have individual quirks that have to be worked around.

Also ATi allows forcing of AFR in applications but again that isn't a guarantee that things will work.

The fact is both SLI and Crossfire require constant driver "coddling", well in excess of what a single card requires. For that reason it isn't a robust or long-term solution but customers pay more for it. This to me is a counter-intuitive solution.

2. The single 3870's performance is far below single 8800GTX performance due to it's shader resolve AA, VLIW shader arc inefficiency, and texture fill rate deficiency. Being "limited" to a single GTX is a better place to be.
That?s certainly true but the fact is you?ve paid money for three of them, plus you have to endure the thermals for all three of them even if you?re only getting the performance out of one.

Now before you mention good cases I have a Thermaltake Armor with two intake fans (including a 25 cm side fan) and four exhaust fans but my single 8800 Ultra still gets pretty toasty in many situations, enough to rev its fan to 100%. Three of them would be like a jet engine with its after-burner activated.

3. When you have multiple cards, as opposed to 3870X2, you have flexibility of use and disposal.
That's one way to look at it. I look at it from the point of view that two cards are more of a liability since getting rid of two of them is harder to get rid of than one., especially when the next generation comes along and a single card is faster and has better thermals than both combined.

The 3870 X2 would probably be harder to get rid of than a regular single card too.

We don't "know NVIDIA has piss poor driver support" BFG.
Sure we do, try reading the forum threads that you moderate, including the 19 page Unreal 2 engine stuttering issue that been going on since the November 2006 launch, many games of which are listed as TWIMTBP titles.

Since Vista has launched, I've used a FX-60/NF4/8800GTX SLi rig, a E6700/680i/8800GTX SLi rig/ a QX6700/780i/3 way SLi rig, and a E6850/680i/8800Ultra rig. On these computers I've used/am using Vista Home Premium, Vista 32 Ultimate, Vista 64 Ultimate, and Vista Enterprise.
Yes but you don't really play games. In the last six months for example list the games you've finished and then I'll list mine.

Running a UT3 session once in a while (which you yourself admit have issues with tri-SLI in) doesn?t really prove much.

You're too unforgiving IMO- you were ready to crucify them over the the patch in Serious Sam 1 not working, and that game is so old there aren't many copies left where the foil in the cd hasn't oxidized.
When I pay a lot of money for hardware I expect it to work. In my experience the more cards you have the more problems you have but the more money you also pay, so it's a very self-defeating path.

This why I'll never go down the SLI/Crossfire route unless something dramatically changes with the whole paradigm.

You can't expect PC gaming to be like console gaming, and I can link you to reviews that say NVIDIA's drivers are better than the competitions. (and have)
Reviews mean diddly squat given most reviewers don't play plays games except for the purposes of generating manual Fraps runs.

The G80 series looked great in reviews but it wasn't until after I sat down to try to play games did the numerous issues crop up. At launch approximately half of my 70+ games issues had issues and if I went tri-SLI now it?d be the same nightmare all over again, if not worse.

No thanks, once was more than enough. :thumbsdown:
 

MegaWorks

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2004
3,819
1
0
Originally posted by: Rollo
Originally posted by: Aberforth
there you go: http://www.techpowerup.com/?50695 and http://www.tomshardware.com/cn/237,news-237.html

Crysis: 16 frames @ 1280 :roll:

sure with optimized drivers you might want to add 5 more frames to it.

I don't think you can use Crysis performance as the measure of "success" for any current graphics card.

To me it looks like the designers wanted to show us what could be done, or just wanted to code a forward thinking enough engine to ensure years of licenses.

OMG!! it's Rollo!! :Q

LOL!! BFG10K is at your cast again, oh the humanity the cycle continues!

Ok I'll be nice, welcome back!


Well the 3870 x2 looks interesting reminds a lot of the Rage Fury Maxx. But seriously Op wait for the official drivers before jumping to conclusions.

 

nRollo

Banned
Jan 11, 2002
10,460
0
0
Originally posted by: BFG10K
Adding a profile doesn't guarantee any kind of scaling or that scaling and/or the game will work properly. Many games have individual quirks that have to be worked around.

Also ATi allows forcing of AFR in applications but again that isn't a guarantee that things will work.

The difference is while ATi recently gave users the ability to force AFR on games, NVIDIA drivers allow the user to utilize AFR, AFR2, or SFR at the users discretion. This flexibility lets SLi users maximize the number of games they can achieve scaling in. I've seen it posted at Rage3d that forcing AFR with ATi drivers doesn't work as often as it works. Beyond that, "Google" a review of the Catalyst "Shoot'em Up" driver and see how long it took ATi to put out profiles for some games. Beyond that, I still don't think they have a DX10 CF driver, or AA in BioShock. I can go on and on with stuff like this, as I'm sure you're aware.

Originally posted by: BFG10K
That?s certainly true but the fact is you?ve paid money for three of them, plus you have to endure the thermals for all three of them even if you?re only getting the performance out of one.

Now before you mention good cases I have a Thermaltake Armor with two intake fans (including a 25 cm side fan) and four exhaust fans but my single 8800 Ultra still gets pretty toasty in many situations, enough to rev its fan to 100%. Three of them would be like a jet engine with its after-burner activated.
3 way Sli is a top tier solution- a welcome option for those of us with 25X16 monitors. When you game in high resolution, extreme hardware is required, but the payoff is enormous. While it's true you can't use just any case or power supply, it's worth the trade to buy a better case and power supply to play at 25X16.

Originally posted by: BFG10K
That's one way to look at it. I look at it from the point of view that two cards are more of a liability since getting rid of two of them is harder to get rid of than one., especially when the next generation comes along and a single card is faster and has better thermals than both combined.

The 3870 X2 would probably be harder to get rid of than a regular single card too.
I guess we agree on this .

Originally posted by: BFG10K
We don't "know NVIDIA has piss poor driver support" BFG.
Sure we do, try reading the forum threads that you moderate, including the 19 page Unreal 2 engine stuttering issue that been going on since the November 2006 launch, many games of which are listed as TWIMTBP titles.
What do you expect to find on a support forum? Posts from people who have things working to their satisfaction? Also, posts from end users aren't necessarily indicative of driver problems. A good example is me buying a non-certified NZXT 1200W PSU for $390 at newegg to power my three GTXs. Playing Crysis and UT3 I got BSODs and constant TDR errors. (note: there's a huge TDR error thread on nZone as well) I replaced my power supply with a certified one and the problem vanished. I could have posted " I paid top dollar for high end stuff and I get these "nvidia driver has recovered" errors"- but I solved my problem instead. Some people have valid issues, some cause their own issues. ATi forums have people with errors as well.

Originally posted by: BFG10K
Since Vista has launched, I've used a FX-60/NF4/8800GTX SLi rig, a E6700/680i/8800GTX SLi rig/ a QX6700/780i/3 way SLi rig, and a E6850/680i/8800Ultra rig. On these computers I've used/am using Vista Home Premium, Vista 32 Ultimate, Vista 64 Ultimate, and Vista Enterprise.
Yes but you don't really play games. In the last six months for example list the games you've finished and then I'll list mine.
Running a UT3 session once in a while (which you yourself admit have issues with tri-SLI in) doesn?t really prove much.
You having more time to play games doesn't really prove anything. In the last six months I've finished Bioshock and HL2 EP1. I'm currently on the 16th level of Jericho. I do play UT3 single player most days. I got to the "Find hostage at school" at Crysis before I opted to stop playing that for a while in hopes the 3 way drivers improve for it. I finished the first six levels of Lost Planet.

Originally posted by: BFG10K
You're too unforgiving IMO- you were ready to crucify them over the the patch in Serious Sam 1 not working, and that game is so old there aren't many copies left where the foil in the cd hasn't oxidized.
When I pay a lot of money for hardware I expect it to work. In my experience the more cards you have the more problems you have but the more money you also pay, so it's a very self-defeating path.
For the most part it isn't, and I have used many different NVIDIA SLi rigs.
I can't imagine NOT having a multi card rig in my box, or at least a multi GPU card like the 3870X2.
 

nRollo

Banned
Jan 11, 2002
10,460
0
0
Originally posted by: MegaWorks
Originally posted by: Rollo
Originally posted by: Aberforth
there you go: http://www.techpowerup.com/?50695 and http://www.tomshardware.com/cn/237,news-237.html

Crysis: 16 frames @ 1280 :roll:

sure with optimized drivers you might want to add 5 more frames to it.

I don't think you can use Crysis performance as the measure of "success" for any current graphics card.

To me it looks like the designers wanted to show us what could be done, or just wanted to code a forward thinking enough engine to ensure years of licenses.

OMG!! it's Rollo!! :Q

LOL!! BFG10K is at your cast again, oh the humanity the cycle continues!

Ok I'll be nice, welcome back!


Well the 3870 x2 looks interesting reminds a lot of the Rage Fury Maxx. But seriously Op wait for the official drivers before jumping to conclusions.

Loved my Rage Fury MAXX, and like multi-GPU solutions like the 3870X2 in general.

For people with single slot motherboards, they provide performance that is unavailable in single GPU cards.

 
Dec 30, 2004
12,553
2
76
And not one more post from Aberforth...def a troll, or works for nv.

This stuff is getting lame. AMD/ATI needs the money; no reason to be hating on them for no reason. You're going to be the one losing in the end, so might as well cheer for the underdog.
 

Aberforth

Golden Member
Oct 12, 2006
1,707
1
0
Originally posted by: soccerballtux
And not one more post from Aberforth...def a troll, or works for nv.

This stuff is getting lame. AMD/ATI needs the money; no reason to be hating on them for no reason. You're going to be the one losing in the end, so might as well cheer for the underdog.

didn't your mummy teach you how to be polite?- always ready with a flamethrower.

any keysplayr2003 please lock this topic.
 

firewolfsm

Golden Member
Oct 16, 2005
1,848
29
91
Originally posted by: munky
or rehashing the outdated nv40 architecture all the way through g71.

G70 gave twice the performance of the a 6800Ultra, that's really all they need to do.

 

n7

Elite Member
Jan 4, 2004
21,281
4
81
Originally posted by: Rollo
3 way Sli is a top tier solution- a welcome option for those of us with 25X16 monitors. When you game in high resolution, extreme hardware is required, but the payoff is enormous. While it's true you can't use just any case or power supply, it's worth the trade to buy a better case and power supply to play at 25X16.

Not a welcome option here.

And yes, the payoff is enormous. Enormous credit card bill pay-off that is.
One has to pay off the credit card for an overpriced 3-way SLI motherboard, overpriced GTX/Ultras, overpriced case, & overpriced PSU.

What would be very welcome is a new high end single card solution instead another SLI sandwich solution that no one wants that can do well with my 2560x1600.

Till then, i'm quite happy to run games at lower resolutions/settings rather than put myself through the horrors of SLI or CF, or these SLI/CF sandwich cards masquerading as single card options.
 

Ika

Lifer
Mar 22, 2006
14,264
3
81
Originally posted by: Rollo
Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Originally posted by: Rollo
Originally posted by: Aberforth
there you go: http://www.techpowerup.com/?50695 and http://www.tomshardware.com/cn/237,news-237.html

Crysis: 16 frames @ 1280 :roll:

sure with optimized drivers you might want to add 5 more frames to it.

I don't think you can use Crysis performance as the measure of "success" for any current graphics card.

To me it looks like the designers wanted to show us what could be done, or just wanted to code a forward thinking enough engine to ensure years of licenses.

We'll I'll be damned!! Welcome Back Rollo!!

Thanks ol' buddy- good to be back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXaZmY52gHM


On topic- there are better reasons to be skeptical of the the 3870X2, the fact that on games that don't scale with CF you've got a $400+ card with 3870 performance chief among them, I just don't think Crysis is the definition of a good card.

(although that seems to be the current fashion)

I think Crysis is just one of those games it's going to take the hardware a while to catch up to. Remember when FEAR came out and nothing but high end SLi could run it?

WTF ROLLO IS BACK :shocked:

EDIT: apparently I missed the entire second page. Oh well.

EDIT2: anyway, a comment about the 3870X2 - I looked at some other benchies of it and it did perform well; Crysis was pretty much the single game in which it tanked (as in, performance below 3870 levels). In other games, it performed probably around 20-30% better than the 8800GT, which is right about where the 9800GX2 is supposed to perform. If that's the case, things are looking decently good for the red team.
 

nitromullet

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2004
9,031
36
91
Originally posted by: Aflac

EDIT2: anyway, a comment about the 3870X2 - I looked at some other benchies of it and it did perform well; Crysis was pretty much the single game in which it tanked (as in, performance below 3870 levels). In other games, it performed probably around 20-30% better than the 8800GT, which is right about where the 9800GX2 is supposed to perform. If that's the case, things are looking decently good for the red team.

I thought the 9800GX2 was supposed to perform 30% better than the 8800 Ultra, not the 8800GT. A 30% increase over the 8800GT from anything over $400 isn't exactly what I would consider exciting.
 

nRollo

Banned
Jan 11, 2002
10,460
0
0
Originally posted by: Aflac
Originally posted by: Rollo
Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Originally posted by: Rollo
Originally posted by: Aberforth
there you go: http://www.techpowerup.com/?50695 and http://www.tomshardware.com/cn/237,news-237.html

Crysis: 16 frames @ 1280 :roll:

sure with optimized drivers you might want to add 5 more frames to it.

I don't think you can use Crysis performance as the measure of "success" for any current graphics card.

To me it looks like the designers wanted to show us what could be done, or just wanted to code a forward thinking enough engine to ensure years of licenses.

We'll I'll be damned!! Welcome Back Rollo!!

Thanks ol' buddy- good to be back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXaZmY52gHM


On topic- there are better reasons to be skeptical of the the 3870X2, the fact that on games that don't scale with CF you've got a $400+ card with 3870 performance chief among them, I just don't think Crysis is the definition of a good card.

(although that seems to be the current fashion)

I think Crysis is just one of those games it's going to take the hardware a while to catch up to. Remember when FEAR came out and nothing but high end SLi could run it?

WTF ROLLO IS BACK :shocked:

EDIT: apparently I missed the entire second page. Oh well.

EDIT2: anyway, a comment about the 3870X2 - I looked at some other benchies of it and it did perform well; Crysis was pretty much the single game in which it tanked (as in, performance below 3870 levels). In other games, it performed probably around 20-30% better than the 8800GT, which is right about where the 9800GX2 is supposed to perform. If that's the case, things are looking decently good for the red team.

As noted in my discussion with BFG10K, I don't believe ATi has their Crossfire profile for Crysis DX10 working yet.

So, if Toms tested in DX10, you'd only be seeing the single 3870 GPU performance from the new ATi card. I'd call this more a problem with the test than the card. (or just illustrative of another point I made with BFG, that waiting for driver profiles with CF is frustrating)

In any case, it's good ATi and NVIDIA are coming out with multi GPU solutions, gives everyone more options.

n7 and BFG I'll start a 3 way SLi thread where we can discuss the pros and cons of that, so this thread doesn't get too far off track.

Edit2: I see ATi does have scaling in DX10 now, so maybe the problem is just with this card? Don't know.
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
2,996
126
The difference is while ATi recently gave users the ability to force AFR on games, NVIDIA drivers allow the user to utilize AFR, AFR2, or SFR at the users discretion.
But again making a profile doesn't guarantee any kind of scaling. There are SLI profiles now that provide dual-GPU scaling but tri-GPUs are no faster or even slower than dual-GPUs.

So again having a profile - even straight from nVidia - doesn't really mean anything.

Anyway, I'm not arguing ATi is better than nVidia (nVidia does manage SLI better in general than Crossfire) but rather that SLI and Crossfire both suck.

3 way Sli is a top tier solution- a welcome option for those of us with 25X16 monitors. When you game in high resolution, extreme hardware is required, but the payoff is enormous.
Not if it doesn't work.

What do you expect to find on a support forum? Posts from people who have things working to their satisfaction?
The Unreal 2 engine stuttering is a known issue that afflicts a range of TWIMTBP titles. Furthermore if you had the games I?m reporting I could demonstrate to you how to replicate their issues, like when you claimed there wasn?t an issue in Serious Sam until I told you otherwise.

Also, posts from end users aren't necessarily indicative of driver problems.
But we know it's a driver issue because nVidia admitted it.

I could have posted " I paid top dollar for high end stuff and I get these "nvidia driver has recovered" errors"- but I solved my problem instead.
Could you? Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought you get your video cards for free from nVidia? And maybe your motherboards too?

You having more time to play games doesn't really prove anything.
Sure it does. Someone that spends more time playing a greater variety of games is more likely to find driver issues than a casual gamer that sticks to a handful of titles. A casual gamer posting they don?t have issues is all well and good but it might not tell the full story.

In the last six months I've finished Bioshock and HL2 EP1. I'm currently on the 16th level of Jericho. I do play UT3 single player most days. I got to the "Find hostage at school" at Crysis before I opted to stop playing that for a while in hopes the 3 way drivers improve for it. I finished the first six levels of Lost Planet.
Is that it? In the last six months I've finished twenty games:

[*]Descent 2
[*]Jedi Academy
[*]Doom 3 Resurrection of Evil
[*]Quake 2 Ground Zero
[*]Quake 2 The Reckoning
[*]Call of Duty United Offensive
[*]Quake Dissolution of Eternity
[*]Quake Scourge of Armagon
[*]Crysis
[*]Fear Perseus Mandate
[*]Call of Duty 4
[*]Jericho
[*]Stalker
[*]Undying
[*]Medal of Honor Airborne
[*]Bioshock
[*]Call of Juarez
[*]Unreal
[*]Marathon 2
[*]Soldier of Fortune 2

And that's not including time logged with multiplayer.

There's a big mix of titles there ranging from brand new to ancient so as you can see I?m in a much better position to evaluate driver quality and robustness than you are.

For the most part it isn't, and I have used many different NVIDIA SLi rigs.
How so? AFR inherently introduces input lag and this scheme is most commonly used. Again you get pretty benchmark graphs but it?s not until you sit down to play the games do you realize things aren?t as smooth as they should be.

SFR doesn?t have that issue but then scaling is nowhere near as good as your original pretty graphs show.

That and other issues like vsync, multi-displays, heat, noise, etc.
 

Zap

Elite Member
Oct 13, 1999
22,377
2
81
Originally posted by: BFG10K
There's a big mix of titles there ranging from brand new to ancient so as you can see I?m in a much better position to evaluate driver quality and robustness than you are.

That's one thing which has been bothering me... older game support. Seems as if sometimes older games which I recall running nicely now runs kinda crappy even at low resolutions. For instance the original Unreal Tournament (AKA UT99) seemed to run choppier now than in the past. Is this just lack of driver support, or am I wearing rose colored glasses?
 
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