*4-17-2003 UDPATE* First Reviews Ready. Intel 865/875 (Springdale/Canterwood)

[ChefJoe]

Hold on, my understanding was that even with a gigabit ethernet controller on CSA, you can plug in your 100 mbit connection (backward compatabile) and run that 100 mbit through the CSA pipe.

Neccessary, no, but in the world of 3% performance improvements being something bleeding edgers pay for, why not? Deal killer, probably not in my case, but for someone who wants to be on the bleeding edge and doesn't buy what's not on that edge, it could well be.

 

[jaeger66]

Originally posted by: ChefJoe
Hold on, my understanding was that even with a gigabit ethernet controller on CSA, you can plug in your 100 mbit connection (backward compatabile) and run that 100 mbit through the CSA pipe.

Neccessary, no, but in the world of 3% performance improvements being something bleeding edgers pay for, why not? Deal killer, probably not in my case, but for someone who wants to be on the bleeding edge and doesn't buy what's not on that edge, it could well be.

Sure, a CSA-based controller can work at any speed. My internet connection is 3Mbps, so it's not like I need it for that. But I do regularly move around files that approach 2 GB so I need as much speed as possible.

 

[shoman94]

Originally posted by: WizardNJ
Hey Shoman, did you notice with fsb @ 150 that the PCI and AGP divider readjsted to keep them at 33/66 ? I noticed it when I ran this at 225 and 240 fsb.

Dave

Yes, I noticed it no matter what FSB I ran. I would much rather adjust them myself though....According to the book and what I read it's only suppose to gray out when SATA is installed which I don't have. All the software for windows...ie EZ bios and EZ overclock do not work yet.....It doen't allow me to set DDR400 manually either...I'm hoping that a 800FSB CPU will unlock some features. Also the memory timings are so picky it's crazy. I'm able to run 2336 at my current FSB but that's it. On my VIA P4PB400-FL I had just prior to this board I could run 2226 plus it added Cammand rate of 1t and 4-way interleave.....

Jason

 

[Fallen Kell]

Originally posted by: NFS4

May I ask where/what are you using GbE for? I don't know of many home users (or businesses for that matter) that use it. Most businesses that I have done work/cabling for use 100Mb.

Anyway, besides the SCSI card, I don't imagine a capture card or sound card taking up much PCI bandwidth

Then you must not go to a lot of businesses. We have a 10 GBit backbone with 1 GB to all switching gear and then 10/100 to must desktops with newer desktops that support 1 GB using 1 GB at my work.

If there was 100 GB we would be using that as the backbone since that is out main bottleneck. Also, the REAL idea of the CSA bus isn't simply to give communications its own bus (that is a side benefit), but its idea and purpose was to offload the extremely taxed PCI bus which is now something like 10 years old. Which in computer terms is ANCIENT! The problem is there are too many PCI devices to simply get rid of the PCI bus. It will have to be an industry wide shift to a new bus. With legacy support still available for PCI devices. The PCI bus is simply just to slow to handle things like SATA controlers, IDE controlers, IDE RAID controlers, SCSI controlers, SCSI RAID controlers, sound cards, video capture cards and high speed ethernet communications ALL AT THE SAME TIME. Every motherboard out there that has extra support for additional drives is using the PCI bus to send the data to and from those drives. Add a high speed SCSI RAID controler and 2 high speed 15k rpm SCSI drives to your system and you will easily start to max out the PCI bus with those 2 drives alone. Intel looked at all the devices that were being put onto the PCI bus and tried to figure out what they could do to remove things from the bus. They saw that they could implement SATA controlers (with RAID) and remove the need for people to use the PCI bus for ethernet communications. All the other problems/uses for PCI could not really be handled reasonably with a motherboard chipset, so they did what they could to speed things up for the overall system by getting some stuff off the PCI bus and freeing up the bandwidth used by those devices for everything else that shares that bus.

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: Fallen Kell

Originally posted by: NFS4

May I ask where/what are you using GbE for? I don't know of many home users (or businesses for that matter) that use it. Most businesses that I have done work/cabling for use 100Mb.

Anyway, besides the SCSI card, I don't imagine a capture card or sound card taking up much PCI bandwidth

Then you must not go to a lot of businesses. We have a 10 GBit backbone with 1 GB to all switching gear and then 10/100 to must desktops with newer desktops that support 1 GB using 1 GB at my work.

If there was 100 GB we would be using that as the backbone since that is out main bottleneck. Also, the REAL idea of the CSA bus isn't simply to give communications its own bus (that is a side benefit), but its idea and purpose was to offload the extremely taxed PCI bus which is now something like 10 years old. Which in computer terms is ANCIENT! The problem is there are too many PCI devices to simply get rid of the PCI bus. It will have to be an industry wide shift to a new bus. With legacy support still available for PCI devices. The PCI bus is simply just to slow to handle things like SATA controlers, IDE controlers, IDE RAID controlers, SCSI controlers, SCSI RAID controlers, sound cards, video capture cards and high speed ethernet communications ALL AT THE SAME TIME. Every motherboard out there that has extra support for additional drives is using the PCI bus to send the data to and from those drives. Add a high speed SCSI RAID controler and 2 high speed 15k rpm SCSI drives to your system and you will easily start to max out the PCI bus with those 2 drives alone. Intel looked at all the devices that were being put onto the PCI bus and tried to figure out what they could do to remove things from the bus. They saw that they could implement SATA controlers (with RAID) and remove the need for people to use the PCI bus for ethernet communications. All the other problems/uses for PCI could not really be handled reasonably with a motherboard chipset, so they did what they could to speed things up for the overall system by getting some stuff off the PCI bus and freeing up the bandwidth used by those devices for everything else that shares that bus.

My point was that the majority of people around here on these forums (while enthusiasts) aren't maxing out their PCI busses with things like SCSI RAID or are taxing the PCI bus THAT much.

I'm not saying that CSA ISN'T important, I'm just saying that I didn't see how that it would be a "deal breaker" for many people around here.

 

[jaeger66]

Originally posted by: NFS4


I'm not saying that CSA ISN'T important, I'm just saying that I didn't see how that it would be a "deal breaker" for many people around here.

Obviously any brand new technlogy won't affect the majority of users, but in my case it does. For me, converting my tiny little network from 100Mbps to 1000Mbps was almost as enlightening as going from dialup to cable. And aside from the real world issues, I find it a little off-putting when a usually top-quality company like Asus takes shortcuts. Many people don't care about stuff like that and have no use for a 1000Mbps network so the Asus will meet their needs, though to be perfectly honest I'm having a hard time coming up with any reason at all to choose it over it's competition.

 

[Sunfox]

So far I've been having a great time shopping for an 875P board to replace my ASUS P4T533-C (which I've been completely satisfied with). So far I've looked closely at the:

Abit IC7-G
AOpen AX4C Max
ASUS P4C800 Deluxe
Chaintech 9CJS
Epox 4PCA3+
FIC P4-875P
Gigabyte GA-8KNXP (even though I use SCSI I would prefer onboard firewire)
Intel D875PBZ
Iwill P4CT
MSI Neo-FIS2R
QDI P4I875P
Soyo SY-P4I875P
Tyan S5101ANRF

...and, with my requirements, I've narrowed it down to the:

AOpen AX4C Max
Gigabyte GA-8KNXP
MSI Neo-FIS2R
Tyan S5101ANRF

I need 2 serial ports and at least 8 possible USB ports. I would like firewire, 4 SATA ports, CSA gigabit, heatsink cooled chipset, 6 USB ports onboard *or* one onboard firewire port, and AGP 8X Pro.

So far there isn't a perfect board, but the closest match is the MSI - however they have a checkered past. The Tyan is the most interesting of the lot, but I'm not sure what the general opinion of them is. I had bad luck with an AOpen AX4T - freezing NIC, a tiny bit unstable and poor BIOS updates. I haven't used a Gigabyte board in years.

Any opinions?

 

[jaeger66]

Originally posted by: Sunfox


Any opinions?

Out of those I'd take the Gigabyte. Tyan has a nice rep for servers but might be a wildcard on the desktop. I've had success with MSI, some don't share my opinion. Haven't had an AOpen since the BX days.

 

[Wurrmm]

I second that gigabyte. I have looked at all the rest, and it looks to have the best features, stability, and layout. I have had gigabyte mobos inthe past and have loved them.

 

[LittleBoo]

I'm interested in the Gigabyte(non-ultra version) too since it has IDE RAID. SATA drives are still hard to come by and expensive.

 

[shoman94]

SilverThief; My Aopen has all of that. I'm happy with mine.

 

[Paradoxx]

On that note, I saw the Gigabyte GA-8KNXP on pricewatch for $288. The retailer has a low resellerrating and it isn't in stock yet. Still I hope this board isnt going to be over 250. That would make me seriously reconsider going with the ASUS board after deciding on the Gigabyte.

 

[Scroatdog]

For those of you with the Aopen board (Wizard, shoman94) ..... what are your initial impressions???? I was thinking of holding out for Abit since I am also waiting for a Radeon 9800 256 meg to appear..... but that's another story.

Anyhow, it seems like you both are far more experienced than I. This is my FIRST build. I have the 3.0 Ghz chip in hand, and the Antec True 430 watt PSU and Coolermaster ATC-201 on the way from newegg. I was planning on buying a second WD 80 gig 8 meg cache drive, and two of those SATA adapters and running SATA off the ICH5. I had been under the impression that Aopen didn't use ICH5 RAID, but after going through and re-reading these posts, I stand corrected.

Also, what kind of memory would be best???? Would the Corsair XMS PC3500 (2x 256 meg) for DCDDR do??? Should I look to that Geil PC3700?? Or the OCZ PC3500 EL????? I don't know too much about DDR, and someone had recommended the Corsair to me. I've got a lot of questions, but since I know there are at least two people out there using the board, I may be swayed into buying it if you both think that it is indeed a good board.

Also, looks like the NB HSF is awfully close to the CPU brakcet. Would adding a Zalman 7000 Cu or an SLK 900 be out of the question??

Thanks in advance for your replies..

 

[GetInMyFatBelly]

From the reviews, i would lean towards the OCZ PC3500 EL DDR dual channel kit.

 

[WizardNJ]

Here's my impressions on the board now that I've had it for 6 days.

Memory - The Corsair Twinx PC3200LL (2x256 meg) would not boot @ 400 MHz at 2.5 volts, no matter what the timing was set to. I'm using OCZ PC3200EL at 400 MGz dual channel at 2,6,3,2 timing and 2.5 volts.

CPU heatsinks - I'm using the stock heatsink that came with the 3.0 GHz cpu. It has a copper inlay and was a nice design. Easy to install. Temps idle at 93 F cpu and max at 114 F full load. I've overclocked the cpu to 240 fsb (3.60 GHz) successfully (with ram @ 1.6x, or 383 MHz). On the first AOPEN AX4C-Max board (which I thought was defective but wasn't) I had mounted a Swiftec MCX4000 rev 1.0. It fit but the chipset fan power plug was in the way of the edge of the heatsink. I had to bend it sideways to get the heatsink to fit. No problem with chipset fan getting in the way of the MCX4000.
Since the stock heatsink is working so well and I do not run overclocked I decided not to put the MCX4000 on the second board.

Hard drives- I have a WD ATA100 80 GB 8 meg cache and a Maxtor ATA133 80 GB 8 meg cache drive. I've tried them on the on board ATA133 raid connector, on board Promise SATA raid connectors (with SATA to ATA adapters from OKGEAR), and on the Intel ICH5 SATA Raid connectors (with the adapters). All 3 setups worked. Performance was slightly higher on both the Promise SATA and ICH5 SATA over the parallel ATA133. CPU loading appeared to be slightly higher on the parallel ATA133 connector but not enough to be a problem. I did find one annoying problem when connected to the ICH5 SATA adapter, the drives would click very loudly several times when shutting down or rebooting the PC. Almost sounded like the drive stepper motoro was being connected/disconnected. Since I didn't want to trash the drive I moved back to the Promise SATA connectors. Sandra hard disk performance on both the Promise SATA and ICH5 SATA was just over 32000 (didn't write down exact numbers but very close to each other). I do have an email in to both AOPEN tech support and OKGEAR regarding the clicking on shutdown/reboot.

Board layout - Very nice (except chipset fan power plug too close to heatsink which may affect putting some aftermarket heatsinks on the board. There is another 3 pin fan header locaed in the bottom front corner of the board and the chipset fan power can be extended to there, then the chipset fan header could be removed or bent over (taped) to make room for a larger heatsink. As stated above I just need to bend it on a 20 degree angle to get the MCX4000 heatsink to fit. Connectors are laid out nice, especially motherboard and P4 power connectors. No longer need to have the power cables going over the memory or cpu to plug in. Using an Antec Lanboy case the motherboard fits well and cabling was routed to allow very good airflow.

Overall satisfaction - very satisfied at this time. I was one of the first to get a retail AOPEN AX4C-Max and ventured into uncharted waters (as far as setting up ICH5 SATA and the memory issues with the Corsair ram). What I perceived to be problems were not problems with the motherboard. There is still the issue with the clicking of the drive on shutdown/reboot when connected to the ICH5 SATA connector. Intel states they do not support the use of the SATA to ATA133 adapters so I do not know if those adapters are the problem or not. The Promise SATA raid works just as well as the CIH5 SATA raid so it is not a problem for me with two drives.

Here's a list of my system:
AOPEN AX4C-Max motherboard with 1.02 bios
Intel P4 3.0 GHz cpu with 800 MHz fsb
2x256 meg OCZ PC3200EL ram (dual DDR) at 2,6,3,2 timing and 2.5 volts
Maxtor ATA133 80 GB 8 meg buffer drive
WD ATA100 80 GB 8 meg buffer drive
ATI Radeon 9700 Pro using CAT 3.2 drivers
SB Audigy sound card using Audigy 2 drivers
Windows XP Pro OS with SP1
Sony DRU-500A DVD +/-rw
TDK 2440b CDrw
Toshiba 16x DVDrom
Antec Lanboy case with True Power 430 power supply (added to replace 350 watt PS)


Dave

 

[Intelligence3]

Good summary Wiz! :beer: Thanks.

I'm mildly concerned about the heat sink clearance issue. The Gigabyte so far sounds like the one with the best elbow room.

 

[WizardNJ]

Check to dimension of your aftermarket heatsink against the Swiftec MCX4000. The Swiftec does fit but the chipset power plug needs to be bent at about 20% angle. Or you can extend the power from the chipset fan and plug it into motherboard fan header 3 in lower front corner of board.

What CPU are you looking to use?

Dave

 

[jaeger66]

Originally posted by: GetInMyFatBelly
From the reviews, i would lean towards the OCZ PC3500 EL DDR dual channel kit.

Your funeral. OCZ is basically a bunch of criminals who have fled from state to state to avoid prosecution.

 

[DOOPYLOOPY]

plz mail me your computer at your nearest convenience

THx

 

[happybob]

any chance for evan lieb to review the new dfi lanparty 875pro?

 

[Sunfox]

Hmm, the DFI has CSA, which is good, but lacks additional SATA RAID and FireWire.

 

[Scroatdog]

I would have thought the MSI review would be up by now. Guess not. Since the Abit and MSI are nowhere in sight, the Aopen is sounding more and more appealing to me.

 

[Sunfox]

I guess you might not see it until Monday or Tuesday, since they seem to be taking the holidays quite seriously.

I just noticed, of the boards I mentioned above the Asus, Soyo and Tyan lack the ICHR5. So I guess now I'm down to the AOpen, Gigabyte and MSI (too bad they all have fans - I really prefer a silent PC).

Y'know, I absolutely love my Asus P4T533-C, but I think they really dropped the ball feature-wise on their first 875P board. No ICH5R, no CSA gigabit, no bundled back plate for the serial port. If they hadn't called the model "Deluxe" I might have held out hope that they WOULD release a deluxe version of it... ah well.

Eagerly awaiting AOpen and MSI reviews...

 

[happybob]

sunfox:

dfi does have sata, but no firewire. it does have 8 usb 2.0 ports.

 

[Scroatdog]

WizardNJ,

Can you post your temps with the MCX4000???? I was going to use the retail HSF that came with the 3.0, but I haven't heard it yet. Prometheus over at asusboards said he was able to fit a Themaltake SLK-900 in there which barely cleared the northbridge cooler.

Just interested in how much temperature difference you saw. I plan to O/C so I want to be thinking ahead about 3rd party cooling.

Also, thanks for your in-depth reply to my earlier post. Unfortunately, neweggg is sold out of the Aopen board. Oh well. I can hold out a little longer, I guess.