4-20-2008 Colt's grip on military rifle market good for America

[dmcowen674]

In honor of the past decade or so of naming laws and acts the opposite of what they actually do I have reversed the article and thread Title.

I may just do that for now on but I will see what the Forum leaders say on it.

What say you guys?


Back to the subject at hand, to be fair this also shows the collusion of the Dems and Repubs since this has been going on since the Clinton era.

We've all heard about Haliburton etc and their no-bid contracts, no others are coming out of the woodwork. Must be an election year.

This doesn't mean I endorse McCain or Obama/Clinton.

Simply that it just sucks no matter how you spin it.


4-20-2008 Colt's grip on military rifle market called bad deal

HARTFORD, Conn. - No weapon is more important to tens of thousands of U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan than the carbine rifle. And for well over a decade, the military has relied on one company, Colt Defense of Hartford, Conn., to make the M4s they trust with their lives.

In 1994, Colt was awarded a no-bid contract to make the weapons. Since then, it has sold more than 400,000 to the U.S. military.

Along the way, Colt's hold has been threatened but not broken.

 

[blackangst1]

You do know the government has contracts on everything right? Including tampons dispensed in womens restrooms and toilet paper.

Who cares?

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

Soldiers are content with it. Congressmen are not.

Wonder why that is...Oh yeah H&K is a big contributor to the folks in DC and are still pissy about losing the XM8 contract.

Colt has lost contracts before. FN makes the M16 now instead of Colt.

 

[Arkaign]

Regardless of who makes it, the .223/556 is a mistake. It's good for certain situations, but has severe liabilities.

A *GREAT* read that touches on the subject is 'Black Hawk Down'. Nothing like shooting baddies multiple times, only to have them walk away and fire back at you. Or to be unable to shoot bad guys behind thick doors or clay walls.

6.8 seems to be a good round if our guys ever get it. Anyway in Somalia and in many other actions, the Delta guys often use M14 with the full 7.62x51mm round, good for taking out light vehicles, enemies at a distance, guys with body armor (knock em flat), etc.

 

[Throckmorton]

You can't knock someone over with a bullet!

 

[maddogchen]

1 in 5 soldiers had their weapons jam during a firefight. From the article:

In 2006, a non-profit research group surveyed 2,600 soldiers who had served in Iraq and Afghanistan and found 89 percent were satisfied with the M4. While Colt and the Army have trumpeted that finding, detractors say the survey also revealed that 19 percent of these soldiers had their weapon jam during a firefight.

That sounds very unsettling to me. Has this been addressed?

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: Throckmorton
You can't knock someone over with a bullet!

lol yes you can. If you're wearing armor, and take a chest full of 7.62x51, you're going down. It's like being hit with bricks. A ton of kinetic energy transfers from the round to the vest, and that transfers to you.

 

[trenchfoot]

Originally posted by: maddogchen
1 in 5 soldiers had their weapons jam during a firefight. From the article:

In 2006, a non-profit research group surveyed 2,600 soldiers who had served in Iraq and Afghanistan and found 89 percent were satisfied with the M4. While Colt and the Army have trumpeted that finding, detractors say the survey also revealed that 19 percent of these soldiers had their weapon jam during a firefight.

That sounds very unsettling to me. Has this been addressed?

every time my 16 or anything else i was using to send rounds down range with jammed i got told it was my fault cuz i didn't PM it like i should. that was the offical line. and i'm pretty sure it's still is. exception being the first 16, but only because it got so bad they actually did something about it but it still took years to fix.

i used to get the cold sweats having nightmares about getting rushed and flushed out of my fighting hole because my weapon jammed at exactly the wrong moment. but try telling that to the bean counters and the profit makers and takers.

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: Arkaign
Regardless of who makes it, the .223/556 is a mistake. It's good for certain situations, but has severe liabilities.

A *GREAT* read that touches on the subject is 'Black Hawk Down'. Nothing like shooting baddies multiple times, only to have them walk away and fire back at you. Or to be unable to shoot bad guys behind thick doors or clay walls.

6.8 seems to be a good round if our guys ever get it. Anyway in Somalia and in many other actions, the Delta guys often use M14 with the full 7.62x51mm round, good for taking out light vehicles, enemies at a distance, guys with body armor (knock em flat), etc.

Yea, 6.8 seems to be the best of both worlds but what's stopping it from becoming mainstream?

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

Originally posted by: tweaker2

Originally posted by: maddogchen
1 in 5 soldiers had their weapons jam during a firefight. From the article:

In 2006, a non-profit research group surveyed 2,600 soldiers who had served in Iraq and Afghanistan and found 89 percent were satisfied with the M4. While Colt and the Army have trumpeted that finding, detractors say the survey also revealed that 19 percent of these soldiers had their weapon jam during a firefight.

That sounds very unsettling to me. Has this been addressed?

every time my 16 or anything else i was using to send rounds down range with jammed i got told it was my fault cuz i didn't PM it like i should. that was the offical line. and i'm pretty sure it's still is. exception being the first 16, but only because it got so bad they actually did something about it but it still took years to fix.

i used to get the cold sweats having nightmares about getting rushed and flushed out of my fighting hole because my weapon jammed at exactly the wrong moment. but try telling that to the bean counters and the profit makers and takers.

Take care of your weapon and your weapon will take care of you

Originally posted by: Arkaign

Originally posted by: Throckmorton
You can't knock someone over with a bullet!

lol yes you can. If you're wearing armor, and take a chest full of 7.62x51, you're going down. It's like being hit with bricks. A ton of kinetic energy transfers from the round to the vest, and that transfers to you.

Negative. The bullet only has as much energy as does the rifle pushing back against you.

If I can find the vid I'll link it to the guy standing on one leg taking a 7.62x51 in the chest from 1 foot away or so. He barely blinks.

The price is inflated anyway. The plain jane M4A1 is $896.

https://aais.ria.army.mil/aais...2H0904D00860030/02.pdf

This stuff is public domain, nothing secretive. The $1500 is likely some SOPMOD with rails and fancy stuff that isn't being issued with every rifle.

 

[Arkaign]

Wow that's pretty freaky.

I was under the impression that the heavier rounds actually pushed you when you are hit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...p65q3s&feature=related

From an AK-47, not as heavy as 7.62x51.

EDIT : Also to be considered is that when weapons fire, the recoil / energy is distributed through the weapon as well, many weapons use this force to transfer towards the mechanics of loading the next round into the firing position.

 

[keird]

My M16A4 was a FN.

 

[OS]

Originally posted by: maddogchen
1 in 5 soldiers had their weapons jam during a firefight. From the article:

In 2006, a non-profit research group surveyed 2,600 soldiers who had served in Iraq and Afghanistan and found 89 percent were satisfied with the M4. While Colt and the Army have trumpeted that finding, detractors say the survey also revealed that 19 percent of these soldiers had their weapon jam during a firefight.

That sounds very unsettling to me. Has this been addressed?

I'm no rifle guy, but the M4 is based off the M16, which has been also accused of jamming often, the history on this goes as far back as the vietnam war.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: Arkaign
Wow that's pretty freaky.

I was under the impression that the heavier rounds actually pushed you when you are hit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...p65q3s&feature=related

From an AK-47, not as heavy as 7.62x51.

EDIT : Also to be considered is that when weapons fire, the recoil / energy is distributed through the weapon as well, many weapons use this force to transfer towards the mechanics of loading the next round into the firing position.

Where is the part of the video where the guy shooting goes BOOM!!!! I feel cheated.

 

[Arkaign]

Bruno, think I found the video :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaS_2l8nGdg

It's slightly flawed in a few ways, but does make some interesting points. Anyhow, three things I observed :

(1)- The guy wearing the armor wore it very loosely, so that it could sort of flex and absorb impact without slamming full into him.

(2)- The guy firing fired down and to the side, greatly deflecting the impact.

(3)- The guy did move back pretty good on that single round, and it was as noted, a very glancing strike.

Even after all that said, it's still a surprisingly light impact.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
In honor of the past decade or so of naming laws and acts the opposite of what they actually do I have reversed the article and thread Title.
-snip-

^ LOLz (unfortunately true)

I don't have any firsthand knowledge of such military procurement/contracts. But what I've seen on various TV shows on the matter, the military does have a "competitive process". They'll have various manufacturers submit their rifles (in this case) and choose the best.

As to why there's not a competitive bid on the manufacture of the M4, my thought was that probrably can't be done. Colt likely has the patent etc. This seems confirmed in the link you provided:

Development of the carbine was driven by a need for a condensed weapon that could be used in tight spaces but still had plenty of punch. Colt's answer was the 7 1/2-pound M4. The design allowed the company to leverage the tooling used for the M16.

In 1994, Colt was awarded a no-bid contract to make the weapons. Since then, it has sold more than 400,000 to the U.S. military.

Along the way, Colt's hold has been threatened but not broken.

In 1996, a Navy office improperly released Colt's M4 blueprints, giving nearly two dozen contractors a look at the carbine's inner workings. Colt was ready to sue the U.S. government for the breach. The company wanted between $50 million and $70 million in damages.

Cooler heads prevailed. The Defense Department didn't want to lose its only source for the M4, and Colt didn't want to stop selling to its best customer.

Fern

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: maddogchen
1 in 5 soldiers had their weapons jam during a firefight. From the article:

In 2006, a non-profit research group surveyed 2,600 soldiers who had served in Iraq and Afghanistan and found 89 percent were satisfied with the M4. While Colt and the Army have trumpeted that finding, detractors say the survey also revealed that 19 percent of these soldiers had their weapon jam during a firefight.

That sounds very unsettling to me. Has this been addressed?

That sounds bad. I don't know what a good number is, though. I'm sure that bad care of the weapon is to play but if one badly taken care of weapon has a failure rate of 6% and another 19%, military should be outfit with a 6% one.

 

[jpeyton]

The fraud here is pretty apparent. Newer, better rifles like the SCAR or the HK416 cost the same as the M4, and have already been adopted by SpecOps.

Why not give our troops a better rifle for the same amount of money?

No brainer decision to me.

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
The fraud here is pretty apparent. Newer, better rifles like the SCAR or the HK416 cost the same as the M4, and have already been adopted by SpecOps.

Why not give our troops a better rifle for the same amount of money?

No brainer decision to me.

The SCAR was never designed to be a mainline rifle. It has its own subset of requirement which FN built it around. The 416 is a fine weapon, but the guy pushing for the 416 has H&K dumping money in his pocket and wants to build a plant in his district.

Colt has the M4 contract because the Navy screwed up and released the blueprints for the M4. Colt sued the US Gov for 75mil or so in damages as a result. The settlement ended up with not a hefty cash payout, but the contract for however many years. I don't remember exactly as it was a long while back.

As already said, they aren't even close to the same amount of money.

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: Arkaign
Regardless of who makes it, the .223/556 is a mistake. It's good for certain situations, but has severe liabilities.

A *GREAT* read that touches on the subject is 'Black Hawk Down'. Nothing like shooting baddies multiple times, only to have them walk away and fire back at you. Or to be unable to shoot bad guys behind thick doors or clay walls.

6.8 seems to be a good round if our guys ever get it. Anyway in Somalia and in many other actions, the Delta guys often use M14 with the full 7.62x51mm round, good for taking out light vehicles, enemies at a distance, guys with body armor (knock em flat), etc.

Yea, 6.8 seems to be the best of both worlds but what's stopping it from becoming mainstream?

The 6.8 is deployed in small numbers. You can't just switch over to a new non-NATO caliber for an entire service easily. New barrels, magazines, bolts and ammo would have to be made.

There's only 1 plant making 556 and there are too many other weapon systems using 556 to split it up. They can't keep up with 556 as it is.

Originally posted by: Arkaign
Bruno, think I found the video :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaS_2l8nGdg

It's slightly flawed in a few ways, but does make some interesting points. Anyhow, three things I observed :

(1)- The guy wearing the armor wore it very loosely, so that it could sort of flex and absorb impact without slamming full into him.

(2)- The guy firing fired down and to the side, greatly deflecting the impact.

(3)- The guy did move back pretty good on that single round, and it was as noted, a very glancing strike.

Even after all that said, it's still a surprisingly light impact.

I'd never volunteer to take one to the chest

 

[P229SAS]

Lake City is cranking out literally millions of rounds per day - billions per year - and essentially all of it is going toward the war effort. The US military has used up most of its stockpiles and what they are using now is essentially all brand new manufactured ammo as they can get it out the door.

I used to regularly shoot US surplus 5.56 at the range but now I have almost entirely converted over to Russian and Serbian ammo. Another reason why my AR15s have collected dust and my AKs get regular usage.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...7/ammunition-shortage/

 

[Starbuck1975]

I don't have a lot of expertise with firearms beyond the M16A4 issued to be during field training exercises.

I do recall the M16A4 requiring ridiculous amounts of maintenance and cleaning to remain functional...it is a very precise rifle when working properly, but I recall on quite a few live fire exercises, qualification ranges and training exercises with blanks, the damn thing would jam all the time.

 

[Ronstang]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
I don't have a lot of expertise with firearms beyond the M16A4 issued to be during field training exercises.

I do recall the M16A4 requiring ridiculous amounts of maintenance and cleaning to remain functional...it is a very precise rifle when working properly, but I recall on quite a few live fire exercises, qualification ranges and training exercises with blanks, the damn thing would jam all the time.

They jam with blanks because of the cap you have to put over the muzzle to get proper gas operation. I fouls the bolt relatively quickly. The gun was designed to shoot bullets...not blanks.

 

[trenchfoot]

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
I don't have a lot of expertise with firearms beyond the M16A4 issued to be during field training exercises.

I do recall the M16A4 requiring ridiculous amounts of maintenance and cleaning to remain functional...it is a very precise rifle when working properly, but I recall on quite a few live fire exercises, qualification ranges and training exercises with blanks, the damn thing would jam all the time.

They jam with blanks because of the cap you have to put over the muzzle to get proper gas operation. I fouls the bolt relatively quickly. The gun was designed to shoot bullets...not blanks.

there's also the idea that weapon jamming is also caused from using old/junk ammo like the crap we got in basic with all the shiny good stuff going to the TO, and the old habit of speedloading mags with the full 30 instead of 29 (or is that not a prob anymore?) /shrug

 

[nullzero]

Originally posted by: P229SAS
Lake City is cranking out literally millions of rounds per day - billions per year - and essentially all of it is going toward the war effort. The US military has used up most of its stockpiles and what they are using now is essentially all brand new manufactured ammo as they can get it out the door.

I used to regularly shoot US surplus 5.56 at the range but now I have almost entirely converted over to Russian and Serbian ammo. Another reason why my AR15s have collected dust and my AKs get regular usage.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...7/ammunition-shortage/

I guess its time to stock up on rounds for my M1A before the military decides to switch and use the 7.62x51rounds for the mainstream. The price of ammo has skyrocketed more then the price of gold just about since the War in Iraq first started.

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
The fraud here is pretty apparent. Newer, better rifles like the SCAR or the HK416 cost the same as the M4, and have already been adopted by SpecOps.

Why not give our troops a better rifle for the same amount of money?

No brainer decision to me.

In case you haven't been keeping up with the news, all the publicity regarding the HK416 and it's use by special forces had an unintended effect: It was taken away from all of them. 20,000 troops had their HK416s replaced with standard M4s last month.