Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: Phokus
This is YOUR america, spidey:
http://www.harvardscience.harv...d-lack-health-coverage
"New study finds 45,000 deaths annually linked to lack of health coverage"
Uninsured, working-age Americans have 40 percent higher death risk than privately insured counterparts
You and your ilk are quite literally scum of the earth.
Can't provide for yourself means you should die. Darwin rules. Survival of the fittest.
Originally posted by: Ronstang
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
Spidey I like you in OT but I've read the crap you spew in P&N and honestly you just seem to lose your marbles when the conversation gets political (shut up Phokus, so do you). You have absolutely no idea what it's like to live in a "socialist" country and you know nothing about the people here, so kindly keep your bigoted and highly offensive opinions to yourself.
My travels around the world have afforded me all I need to know about living in socialist countries. They fucking suck. You guys accept that shit as normal because you don't know anything better.
paying a few measily dollars in japan for stitches vs $452 here in the USA. Sorry, but you're dumb.
edit: I think even overnight hospital stays in Japan cost something like $10 a night.
I'm assuming the rest of the ACTUAL cost is provided for from the magic dust that unicorns fart?
Originally posted by: Jeff7181
Originally posted by: TruePaige
Originally posted by: Jeff7181
Doesn't sound unreasonable at all to me. Think about all the cost associated with it. Someone has to pay for the thread that's holding your wound shut, the drugs that numbed your hand while they stitched you, the electricity to provide the light so they could see to stitch you, the staff that empties the container of sharps that contains the needle that injected the drugs into your hand, the office staff that processed your paperwork and the doctor that actually sewed you together. Not to mention the risk of lawsuit the doctor and medical facility face if you get an infection or suffer long term effects such as poor circulation due to a blood vessel that didn't heal or loss of feeling due to nerve damage or allergic reaction to the drugs they used to numb your hand.
So those factors (most of which are a casual cost of doing business for ANY business (Admin, janitorial, inventory and utilities) somehow necessitate 1800/hr pay?
I want some of whatever you are smoking.
To be quite honest, I'm happy the medical industry doesn't work on hourly rates. I don't want to be in an ER and being rushed out the door because if they fix me up in 15 minutes they can still bill me for 30 because that's what the manual says.
What do you think is a reasonable price for treatment the OP received?
*EDIT* By the way... I had knee surgery this past January and the hospital billed for about $25,000 in total. I was there for about 5 hours between both surgeries. By your logic, they billed $5,000/hr. Was it worth it? Doesn't sound like it when you look at it as $5,000 per hour... but when you look at it as a higher quality of life for the next 25 years until I'll likely knee a total knee replacement, it sounds pretty reasonable. Even more reasonable when you consider the insurance company negotiated it down to under $10,000.
Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
Originally posted by: Jimbo
Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
Originally posted by: ric1287
so you don't pay taxes then right? since it cost you nothing
Fair point It does cost us, you're right. It just costs about 1/3 of what you pay per capita. Source
If lower is better, shouldn't we all be aspiring to imitate the Congo's health care model?
Do you have any data for equivalency of care?
That might be more useful than just a raw dollar number.
A quick Googling didn't turn up and firm statistics, although I'd be interested in seeing them if someone knows of a non-biased resource. I did find this article which concludes
?As in previous years, it comes back to the fact that we are paying much higher prices for health care goods and services in the United States. Paying more is okay if our outcomes were better than other countries. But we are paying more for comparable outcomes,? said Anderson, who is also the director of the Johns Hopkins Center for Hospital Finance and Management.
Edit - found this one which states
Despite having the most costly health system in the world, the United States consistently underperforms on most dimensions of performance, relative to other countries. This report?an update to two earlier editions?includes data from surveys of patients, as well as information from primary care physicians about their medical practices and views of their countries' health systems. Compared with five other nations?Australia, Canada, Germany, New Zealand, the United Kingdom?the U.S. health care system ranks last or next-to-last on five dimensions of a high performance health system: quality, access, efficiency, equity, and healthy lives.
Originally posted by: zinfamous
I should admit that back when I was in school, I once sliced the top of a foot with a shard of glass one morning. bastard never stopped bleeding, so that night I drove 30 minutes away to have my brother sew it up in his bathroom sink. used Lidocaine and sutures and everything.
Who said you need to pay for good medical care?
Originally posted by: ric1287
Originally posted by: Mike Gayner
Originally posted by: ric1287
Originally posted by: Mike Gayner
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
Spidey I like you in OT but I've read the crap you spew in P&N and honestly you just seem to lose your marbles when the conversation gets political (shut up Phokus, so do you). You have absolutely no idea what it's like to live in a "socialist" country and you know nothing about the people here, so kindly keep your bigoted and highly offensive opinions to yourself.
My travels around the world have afforded me all I need to know about living in socialist countries. They fucking suck. You guys accept that shit as normal because you don't know anything better.
paying a few measily dollars in japan for stitches vs $452 here in the USA. Sorry, but you're dumb.
edit: I think even overnight hospital stays in Japan cost something like $10 a night.
I got punched over by some dickwad in town here in NZ - fell backward and hit my head on the pavement and was KO'd for a few mins. Got picked up by an ambulance, got a head X-ray and stayed in hospital overnight, got sent home with some pain meds. Didn't cost me anything, nor should it.
so you don't pay taxes then right? since it cost you nothing
The point is that health care isn't something people should miss out on because they can't afford it. So if I had been knocked over, and it turned out I had a brain bleed but couldn't afford treatment, should I be denied care?
It's better to live happy and sound in the knowledge that if the worst should happen (chronic illness), your country is there to help you. And you don't have to bankrupt yourself for it.
At the end of the day, that's why we pay taxes. So I take it you don't pay taxes? Oh wait, yes you do, then you also pay out the ass for care as well.
Well I look at it this way: we have so much other shit to fix here, so much debt, so much waste...the last thing we need (now) is a massive sink hole of spending that will most likely waste massive amounts of money. Fix all the needless waste, then spend.
And it may be heartless, but where does it say anyone is "entitled" to health care? If you don't do anything useful for society (paying taxes), why do you "deserve" anything?
Originally posted by: Ballatician
My literature searching leads me to believe the US leads the way in success rates/rates of mortality when it comes to very extreme conditions, disease or less common fringe conditions. For the more common pathologies, it seems we are lagging. That frontline video/website someone posted earlier is a very good overview of healthcare systems around the country.
Originally posted by: Balt
Originally posted by: Jeff7181
Doesn't sound unreasonable at all to me. Think about all the cost associated with it. Someone has to pay for the thread that's holding your wound shut, the drugs that numbed your hand while they stitched you, the electricity to provide the light so they could see to stitch you, the staff that empties the container of sharps that contains the needle that injected the drugs into your hand, the office staff that processed your paperwork and the doctor that actually sewed you together. Not to mention the risk of lawsuit the doctor and medical facility face if you get an infection or suffer long term effects such as poor circulation due to a blood vessel that didn't heal or loss of feeling due to nerve damage or allergic reaction to the drugs they used to numb your hand.
There are a lot of different costs associated with putting coffee in a container and transporting it too, but they don't add up to $452/lb. Most of the things you described don't add up to much, just a couple of them.
Originally posted by: TruePaige
Originally posted by: Jeff7181
Originally posted by: TruePaige
Originally posted by: Jeff7181
Doesn't sound unreasonable at all to me. Think about all the cost associated with it. Someone has to pay for the thread that's holding your wound shut, the drugs that numbed your hand while they stitched you, the electricity to provide the light so they could see to stitch you, the staff that empties the container of sharps that contains the needle that injected the drugs into your hand, the office staff that processed your paperwork and the doctor that actually sewed you together. Not to mention the risk of lawsuit the doctor and medical facility face if you get an infection or suffer long term effects such as poor circulation due to a blood vessel that didn't heal or loss of feeling due to nerve damage or allergic reaction to the drugs they used to numb your hand.
So those factors (most of which are a casual cost of doing business for ANY business (Admin, janitorial, inventory and utilities) somehow necessitate 1800/hr pay?
I want some of whatever you are smoking.
To be quite honest, I'm happy the medical industry doesn't work on hourly rates. I don't want to be in an ER and being rushed out the door because if they fix me up in 15 minutes they can still bill me for 30 because that's what the manual says.
What do you think is a reasonable price for treatment the OP received?
*EDIT* By the way... I had knee surgery this past January and the hospital billed for about $25,000 in total. I was there for about 5 hours between both surgeries. By your logic, they billed $5,000/hr. Was it worth it? Doesn't sound like it when you look at it as $5,000 per hour... but when you look at it as a higher quality of life for the next 25 years until I'll likely knee a total knee replacement, it sounds pretty reasonable. Even more reasonable when you consider the insurance company negotiated it down to under $10,000.
It's hard to pin down, because any number will sound out of place in the current health care environment we utilize.
But I think the OP should have paid $0 up front, and around $44 a month in taxes.
Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
Should have done it yourself or hired a homeless person to do it for a waffle house all-star breakfast.
Originally posted by: zinfamous
Originally posted by: Balt
Originally posted by: Jeff7181
Doesn't sound unreasonable at all to me. Think about all the cost associated with it. Someone has to pay for the thread that's holding your wound shut, the drugs that numbed your hand while they stitched you, the electricity to provide the light so they could see to stitch you, the staff that empties the container of sharps that contains the needle that injected the drugs into your hand, the office staff that processed your paperwork and the doctor that actually sewed you together. Not to mention the risk of lawsuit the doctor and medical facility face if you get an infection or suffer long term effects such as poor circulation due to a blood vessel that didn't heal or loss of feeling due to nerve damage or allergic reaction to the drugs they used to numb your hand.
There are a lot of different costs associated with putting coffee in a container and transporting it too, but they don't add up to $452/lb. Most of the things you described don't add up to much, just a couple of them.
to be fair, you have to realize that you are paying a specialist who you trust to be trained to the top of their game. This is not a coffee maker.
hell, half of the ATers will reasonably argue the validity behind the expenses of a good mechanic, someone who knows the ins and outs of your car. Someone who charges $100+ per hour, for their expertise, and that's perfectly fine with you.
cool.
...so...why is this unreasonable for a medical professional? Mechanic fucks up, "Whoops, sorry dude, looks like you're gonna need a new motor."
doctor fucks up, "Whoops, sorry bro! oh...btw, that finger is toast for the rest of your life now. kthxby."
really?
Originally posted by: Special K
Originally posted by: zinfamous
I should admit that back when I was in school, I once sliced the top of a foot with a shard of glass one morning. bastard never stopped bleeding, so that night I drove 30 minutes away to have my brother sew it up in his bathroom sink. used Lidocaine and sutures and everything.
Who said you need to pay for good medical care?
You can get lidocaine? I thought only hospitals/doctor's offices could get that.
Originally posted by: zinfamous
Originally posted by: Balt
Originally posted by: Jeff7181
Doesn't sound unreasonable at all to me. Think about all the cost associated with it. Someone has to pay for the thread that's holding your wound shut, the drugs that numbed your hand while they stitched you, the electricity to provide the light so they could see to stitch you, the staff that empties the container of sharps that contains the needle that injected the drugs into your hand, the office staff that processed your paperwork and the doctor that actually sewed you together. Not to mention the risk of lawsuit the doctor and medical facility face if you get an infection or suffer long term effects such as poor circulation due to a blood vessel that didn't heal or loss of feeling due to nerve damage or allergic reaction to the drugs they used to numb your hand.
There are a lot of different costs associated with putting coffee in a container and transporting it too, but they don't add up to $452/lb. Most of the things you described don't add up to much, just a couple of them.
to be fair, you have to realize that you are paying a specialist who you trust to be trained to the top of their game. This is not a coffee maker.
hell, half of the ATers will reasonably argue the validity behind the expenses of a good mechanic, someone who knows the ins and outs of your car. Someone who charges $100+ per hour, for their expertise, and that's perfectly fine with you.
cool.
...so...why is this unreasonable for a medical professional? Mechanic fucks up, "Whoops, sorry dude, looks like you're gonna need a new motor."
doctor fucks up, "Whoops, sorry bro! oh...btw, that finger is toast for the rest of your life now. kthxby."
really?
Originally posted by: TheVrolok
Originally posted by: Ronstang
So $450 for a syringe, its contents, some string, and ~15 mins of labor is reasonable?
Thats only $1800 an hour.
Reasonable? I suppose it depends on your point of view, but could we stop trivializing the care? Someone needed to be trained to know how to properly administer the analgesic (what to use, how much to use, where to use it), and to properly suture. Is this an incredibly difficult task? Nope, not really, but if it's so easy, why don't we just handle it at home with a needle and thread?
I really don't plan to get into the health care reform war raging here, but I'd just like to say, rather vaguely that some of the statistics that get thrown around are useless without proper understanding. Take infant mortality for example, does the US lag behind? Yes. But you must look at the factors that make up that statistic. It is not reported in the same way by all countries due to different definitions of live births. Some countries (like the US) count a live birth as soon as the baby leaves the mother alive. If it dies 5 minutes later, it's an infant death. Other countries may not consider it a live birth until the baby has been alive for a week or more, so in those countries a baby dying in the first week would not count against their IMR. Add to this the fact that the US has a history of performing births in situations where other countries may abort (due to complications) and you have another component. Long story short, IMR is more complex than it may seem - as with any statistic.
Originally posted by: Special K
Originally posted by: zinfamous
I should admit that back when I was in school, I once sliced the top of a foot with a shard of glass one morning. bastard never stopped bleeding, so that night I drove 30 minutes away to have my brother sew it up in his bathroom sink. used Lidocaine and sutures and everything.
Who said you need to pay for good medical care?
You can get lidocaine? I thought only hospitals/doctor's offices could get that.
Originally posted by: zinfamous
They're paying for our expertise. That's our job. They pay for our education."
The expenses in terms of skill are always legitimate. no question.
here's the problem:
tort. malpractice. liability (necessary to a degree). Medical practice is completely strangled by a corporate model that, simply put, has less concern for quality healthcare than they do for profit margins.
and that's the bottom line.
Originally posted by: Balt
Originally posted by: zinfamous
Originally posted by: Balt
Originally posted by: Jeff7181
Doesn't sound unreasonable at all to me. Think about all the cost associated with it. Someone has to pay for the thread that's holding your wound shut, the drugs that numbed your hand while they stitched you, the electricity to provide the light so they could see to stitch you, the staff that empties the container of sharps that contains the needle that injected the drugs into your hand, the office staff that processed your paperwork and the doctor that actually sewed you together. Not to mention the risk of lawsuit the doctor and medical facility face if you get an infection or suffer long term effects such as poor circulation due to a blood vessel that didn't heal or loss of feeling due to nerve damage or allergic reaction to the drugs they used to numb your hand.
There are a lot of different costs associated with putting coffee in a container and transporting it too, but they don't add up to $452/lb. Most of the things you described don't add up to much, just a couple of them.
to be fair, you have to realize that you are paying a specialist who you trust to be trained to the top of their game. This is not a coffee maker.
hell, half of the ATers will reasonably argue the validity behind the expenses of a good mechanic, someone who knows the ins and outs of your car. Someone who charges $100+ per hour, for their expertise, and that's perfectly fine with you.
cool.
...so...why is this unreasonable for a medical professional? Mechanic fucks up, "Whoops, sorry dude, looks like you're gonna need a new motor."
doctor fucks up, "Whoops, sorry bro! oh...btw, that finger is toast for the rest of your life now. kthxby."
really?
Well I was mostly just trying to point out that describing all of the mundane tasks involved isn't what makes the cost add up. There's really just one of two major things.
That being said, is a stitch job really that complicated? I certainly don't know how to do one, but it's not something that fully uses the skills of an MD either.
Originally posted by: Gooberlx2
Originally posted by: Special K
Originally posted by: zinfamous
I should admit that back when I was in school, I once sliced the top of a foot with a shard of glass one morning. bastard never stopped bleeding, so that night I drove 30 minutes away to have my brother sew it up in his bathroom sink. used Lidocaine and sutures and everything.
Who said you need to pay for good medical care?
You can get lidocaine? I thought only hospitals/doctor's offices could get that.
Lidocaine ointment has been on the shelf forever.
Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
You just paid for 2 deadbeats to have their hands stitched up.
I mean really, it was maybe $30 in materials, and $100 for the staff's time, ~25% for admin costs... The rest is profit to pay for the non-paying ER patients.
Originally posted by: Bignate603
Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
Originally posted by: joshsquall
Seems fairly reasonable, given the costs for materials, labor, and overhead.
No, that's not a reasonable cost at all.
What are you talking about? The cost of the labor isn't exactly cheap, you don't want just anybody stitching you up. Not to mention the cost of good medical supplies.
$450 to avoid longterm pain, problems with healing, or massive infection is pretty reasonable.
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: Phokus
This is YOUR america, spidey:
http://www.harvardscience.harv...d-lack-health-coverage
"New study finds 45,000 deaths annually linked to lack of health coverage"
Uninsured, working-age Americans have 40 percent higher death risk than privately insured counterparts
You and your ilk are quite literally scum of the earth.
Can't provide for yourself means you should die. Darwin rules. Survival of the fittest.