401k not growing - anyone else?

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SeductivePig

Senior member
Dec 18, 2007
681
8
81
I checked my 401k, this is what I found;

I am currently invested into and contributing to T. Rowe Price 2050 R (RRTFX is the ticker).

Expense ratio is 1.25%.

I seem to have a lot of options to invest in, and am also allowed to do a self directed account, except there is a disclaimer that says there may be an ongoing fee.

I can list the options here if that helps, but it's a lot. Or maybe upload a screenshot.


As far as Vanguard goes, I have small cap, midsize cap, and large cap funds available. Seems the large cap (VFIAX) has the lowest fees at .05%.
 
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Kelvrick

Lifer
Feb 14, 2001
18,422
5
81
Wasn't paying attention last summer and had to just ride it out for a one year return of +0.72%, but I think I did some decent transactions in January and February for a YTD return of +3.08%
 

ghost recon88

Diamond Member
Oct 2, 2005
6,196
1
81
I have my 403b chunked into the following equally:

VFFVX (Vanguard retirement date 2055)
VIEIX (Vanguard Institutional Index)
POSKX (Primecap Odyssey Stock Fund).

None have an expense ratio higher than .65%. Not sure how you guys are in ones over 1%...
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,131
30,082
146
I checked my 401k, this is what I found;

I am currently invested into and contributing to T. Rowe Price 2050 R (RRTFX is the ticker).

Expense ratio is 1.25%.

I seem to have a lot of options to invest in, and am also allowed to do a self directed account, except there is a disclaimer that says there may be an ongoing fee.

I can list the options here if that helps, but it's a lot. Or maybe upload a screenshot.

2050 means it is a targeted retirement fund that assumes you will retire in 2050. It also assumes you will be actively contributing to that fund from now until the day you retire in 2050. The only way to do that, is to be with this employer until 2050. Do you think that will be the case?

Not likely; not these days.

Nothing wrong with target funds--what they do is actively start to rebalance your investments from stock-heavy to bond-heavy the closer you are to retirement age. This is why the exp ratios are usually higher (1.25 seems unusually high, imo)...but this is also something you could do on your own and is very easy.

Go through your options, anything that ends with "x" in the fund is some type of index fund. Look under the equities category, which will by stock investment funds. Pick those "----X" funds. Index funds will also have the lowest exp ratios.

2050 means you are super young. Pick one good index fund (if it's a total stock market, no need to worry about diversity), and put 100% into that.

You're done.

If you like the idea of target retirement accounts (nothing wrong--it does some work that you will likely be doing anyway, years down the line, you can invest in one of those in your own IRA, which should have lower exp ratio than that 1.25 if you open one at Fidelity or Vanguard.

EDIT: based on your update with Vanguard funds: I would go something like 97%/3% into VFIAX and the mid cap, respectively. Or maybe closer to 78/28. Smarter people than me are reading this thread and probably have better advice. Also, if you absolutely think you need some stability (you probably don't, not at this age), you you can, say, put 97% into stocks (divide into VFIAX and that midcap however you want), then the remaining 3 or 2% into a bond index fund, VBTLX is the standard Vanguard total US bond fund, I think.

Remember that the first thing you need to do is a 100% rollover of funds into the new investments (this will cost you nothing), then you need to go back and change your future contributions so that all paycheck deductions go into your new funds in the ratios that you want. ...You often can't apportion total investments into new funds at less than $1k for each new fund. So say you have $3k total in that 401k--maybe put $2k in the VFIAX and $1k in the mid-cap, then reset your contributions to 97/3 (yeah it won't be anything like that percentage for a while, but it eventually evens out)
 
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SSSnail

Lifer
Nov 29, 2006
17,458
82
86
Didn't see it mentioned, but check with your company to see if you can establish a Personal Choice Retirement Account. The PCRA is part of your 401K, but it allows you to do whatever you want, including options trading, if that's your thing.
 

Homerboy

Lifer
Mar 1, 2000
30,859
4,976
126
I just can't understand how people don't understand retirement investments.

EXACTLY.
I get totally lost and my eyes glaze over, and it's just not fair
I put money into the 401K, company matches, but I have no idea how to "maximize" my return. It just sits there and sometimes grows... a little.
 

rh71

No Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
52,844
1,049
126
My return so far this year is -3%. It was less than -1% a few weeks ago.
 

clamum

Lifer
Feb 13, 2003
26,252
403
126
I don't pay super close attention to mine just because I'm kinda financially retarded (I'm pretty thrifty and don't waste money but I don't know anything about the markets and whatnot) and I'm probably not gonna retire until 2050-2055 (FML).

I just looked at mine from Fidelity NetBenefits and my contributions are going to the Target Year 2055 Fund. Here's the expenses listed for it:

Code:
Expenses & Fees  More Information
Exp Ratio (Gross)                                     1.14%
1/1/2016                                              ($11.40 per $1000)

Exp Ratio (Net)                                        1.14%
1/1/2016                                              ($11.40 per $1000)
Distribution and/or service fee(12b-1) Fees           0.50%

Do those look high? Do you smart guys think I should put the money in some other available fund?
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
19
81
The market is about flat this year. You are hopefully getting dividends so you should have made something.

Transferring retirement funds is easy. Just log into vanguards website and they give you the option to do a 401k account rollover. Their website will ask you a few questions, like account numbers and such and then they will move your money over after a week or so. Typically it forces a selling of your current mutual funds to buy ones in the vanguard profile. If you have individual stocks then that gets a bit more complicated.
Depends.
If you're not past a certain age limit, you likely can't do a 401k rollover unless you leave your job. Otherwise, you'd have to do it as a withdrawal and pay taxes on it.




I checked my 401k, this is what I found;

I am currently invested into and contributing to T. Rowe Price 2050 R (RRTFX is the ticker).

Expense ratio is 1.25%.

I seem to have a lot of options to invest in, and am also allowed to do a self directed account, except there is a disclaimer that says there may be an ongoing fee.

I can list the options here if that helps, but it's a lot. Or maybe upload a screenshot.


As far as Vanguard goes, I have small cap, midsize cap, and large cap funds available. Seems the large cap (VFIAX) has the lowest fees at .05%.
What are those other options?
VFIAX is a very nice option to have at that price. It tracks the S&P 500 index. It's 100% stocks though. A Target Retirement fund is a mix of stocks and bonds. It starts heavy on stocks, and then as the target date approaches, the mix automatically shifts toward holding more bonds in order to try to reduce volatility into retirement.
But some TR accounts are pricey for that service.

You can be lazy and still invest well.
If you split it out into a few mutual funds and do it yourself, every year or two or three you can check in and twiddle with the distribution, shifting more toward bonds as the years go on. If you have very cheap funds, you can save a lot of money in fees this way. You're supposed to be investing in your own future, not T. Rowe Price's or Fidelity's. As the amount of money in the fund increases, the fee amount keeps growing as well.
My 401k is sapping away around $1k/year in fees right now. :\ The funds are actively-managed, but they behave very much like expensive index funds.



EXACTLY.
I get totally lost and my eyes glaze over, and it's just not fair
I put money into the 401K, company matches, but I have no idea how to "maximize" my return. It just sits there and sometimes grows... a little.
Try to mirror the overall holdings of the market using index funds, if available. You're likely to get market average, which is historically not a bad thing at all.
Sometimes the small-cap (small companies) sector does well, sometimes large-cap does well. Sometimes they all suck, sometimes they're all good. Unless you can predict that stuff reliably (in which case, enjoy your many hundreds of billions of dollars), you're likely going to do more harm than good by trying to chase returns.



I don't pay super close attention to mine just because I'm kinda financially retarded (I'm pretty thrifty and don't waste money but I don't know anything about the markets and whatnot) and I'm probably not gonna retire until 2050-2055 (FML).

I just looked at mine from Fidelity NetBenefits and my contributions are going to the Target Year 2055 Fund. Here's the expenses listed for it:

Code:
Expenses & Fees  More Information
Exp Ratio (Gross)                                     1.14%
1/1/2016                                              ($11.40 per $1000)

Exp Ratio (Net)                                        1.14%
1/1/2016                                              ($11.40 per $1000)
Distribution and/or service fee(12b-1) Fees           0.50%
Do those look high? Do you smart guys think I should put the money in some other available fund?
>1% isn't good.
If you assume a long-term annual return of 7%, that 1% fee is actually >14% of your annual average return.
12b-1 fee: Basically a charge so that they can advertise their services at you and others.

What other options have you got?
 
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jlee

Lifer
Sep 12, 2001
48,518
223
106
I don't pay super close attention to mine just because I'm kinda financially retarded (I'm pretty thrifty and don't waste money but I don't know anything about the markets and whatnot) and I'm probably not gonna retire until 2050-2055 (FML).

I just looked at mine from Fidelity NetBenefits and my contributions are going to the Target Year 2055 Fund. Here's the expenses listed for it:

Code:
Expenses & Fees  More Information
Exp Ratio (Gross)                                     1.14%
1/1/2016                                              ($11.40 per $1000)

Exp Ratio (Net)                                        1.14%
1/1/2016                                              ($11.40 per $1000)
Distribution and/or service fee(12b-1) Fees           0.50%

Do those look high? Do you smart guys think I should put the money in some other available fund?

Those are high, yes.

This is what I have (401k through Fidelity):

60.61%
Spartan® 500 Index Fund - Fidelity Advantage Class
Symbol: FUSVX
Exp Ratio (Gross) 0.07%
Exp Ratio (Net) 0.05%

29.87%
Spartan® Extended Market Index Fund - Fidelity Advantage Class
Symbol: FSEVX
Exp Ratio (Gross) 0.07%
(Net) 0.07%

9.52%
Fidelity® Capital & Income Fund
Symbol: FAGIX
Exp Ratio (Gross) 0.72%
(Net) 0.72%

I'm actually going to lose that last one...I didn't know it was so high.
Edit: lol, apparently I already did and the balance was left over from previous contributions.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,479
3,976
126
Expense ratio is 1.25%.
...
As far as Vanguard goes, I have small cap, midsize cap, and large cap funds available. Seems the large cap (VFIAX) has the lowest fees at .05%.
Lets do some quick math.

Suppose you put in $2500 a year for 40 years and your company puts in $2500 a year match for 40 years. Thus, combined, you added $5000 * 40 = $200,000. This really isn't that hard to do for most of us on this board (many contribute more).




Suppose the funds you invest in go up a typical 8% per year.
  • With 0% fees, you would retire a millionaire with $1,295,283. You keep your $200,000 principal and $1,095,283 from stock market gains.
  • With 0.05% fees, you would retire with $1,278,354. You keep your $200,000 principal and $1,078,354 from stock market gains. The 401k providers keep the rest, $16,928.
  • With 1.25% fees, you would retire with $936,066. You keep your $200,000 principal and $736,066 from stock market gains. The 401k providers keep the rest, $359,216.
  • If you found a fund with as high as 2% fees (not too uncommon Clamum just posted 1.14% + 0.5% fee), you would retire with $773,809. You keep your $200,000 principal and $573,809 from stock market gains. The 401k providers keep the rest, $521,472.
Look closely at that last option. Just for providing you with the ability to invest, they keep almost half of the total money that you would have otherwise gained. You took the risk, they took half your gains. Do you really feel like paying half a million dollars just because you choose a fund with 2% fees instead of 0.05%?

That is why fees matter.
 
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rcpratt

Lifer
Jul 2, 2009
10,433
110
116
Not a whole lot of movement this year, but still slightly positive. Doing just fine.
Checked in more detail.

Overall, up $7k this year. $4k in deposits and up $3k in gains (3.5%). I think that beats the market in this short period...I'll take it. My highest fund that I use has fees of 0.47%. My company's stock and my international fund have both done pretty well this year.
 
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Markbnj

Elite Member <br>Moderator Emeritus
Moderator
Sep 16, 2005
15,682
14
81
www.markbetz.net
401ks are for the long game

People who fiddle with it because of a single bad year don't do that well, because you're making a knee jerk reaction while your money is at a low point. You'd only be ahead if you moved it BEFORE this happened.

This. Put it in good index funds and let the pros do their work.
 

Hugo Drax

Diamond Member
Nov 20, 2011
5,647
47
91
I don't pay super close attention to mine just because I'm kinda financially retarded (I'm pretty thrifty and don't waste money but I don't know anything about the markets and whatnot) and I'm probably not gonna retire until 2050-2055 (FML).

I just looked at mine from Fidelity NetBenefits and my contributions are going to the Target Year 2055 Fund. Here's the expenses listed for it:

Code:
Expenses & Fees  More Information
Exp Ratio (Gross)                                     1.14%
1/1/2016                                              ($11.40 per $1000)

Exp Ratio (Net)                                        1.14%
1/1/2016                                              ($11.40 per $1000)
Distribution and/or service fee(12b-1) Fees           0.50%

Do those look high? Do you smart guys think I should put the money in some other available fund?

Wow, your getting raped. And they even charge you for the strip club expenses and midget throwing parties. 12b-1

That is an example of what the 12b-1 fees are used for and more.

But there is worse, back end loads, front end loads,etc..
 
Last edited:
Nov 8, 2012
20,828
4,777
146
It's so funny - the people that are financially retarded are the ones asking questions like:
1) Should I withdrawal funds from my 401k and pay the taxes, PLUS a 10% penalty?
2) Should I move my assets after the X market drop? I fear y market drop is coming next!!

Put it in a low cost Index fund and forget it even fucking exists. You know what decision I made based on the market drop? I fucking cranked my 401k contributions up to the maximum allowed by my employer. I already maxed it out for the year because it's much more probable that this will be the low point of the year.

tl;dr: Quit thinking you are financially smart enough to manipulate the market in any way. Put your money in a low cost diversified Index fund and forget it even exists. Any other advice is just pure stupidity.
 

NesuD

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,999
106
106
Also need to pay attention to the age of the funds...some very new funds that I have noticed popping up are showing 15% growth! over the lifetime of the fund, 11% and 7% over 2 and 5 year periods, etc. When compared to stalwarts like VTSAX (~6% lifetime, iirc), those look great! ...but these funds were also born middle of 2008. so, yeah

VTSAX was also up 34% that year.


True the longer the history the better. 5 years history is my minimum to even consider a fund. I actually like to see a funds historical performance during tough times like a recession or a correction year like we are in right now.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,131
30,082
146
It's so funny - the people that are financially retarded are the ones asking questions like:
1) Should I withdrawal funds from my 401k and pay the taxes, PLUS a 10% penalty?
2) Should I move my assets after the X market drop? I fear y market drop is coming next!!

Put it in a low cost Index fund and forget it even fucking exists. You know what decision I made based on the market drop? I fucking cranked my 401k contributions up to the maximum allowed by my employer. I already maxed it out for the year because it's much more probable that this will be the low point of the year.

tl;dr: Quit thinking you are financially smart enough to manipulate the market in any way. Put your money in a low cost diversified Index fund and forget it even exists. Any other advice is just pure stupidity.

Pretty much, but I want to add an addition to the bolded statement. Forget it exists in the sense that you don't want to spend much time moving money back and forth, however:

pay monthly attention to the market. If the trend is down, then Increase your contributions as much as you can. Or buy more if in a Roth/TR IRA. Ignore it, except in opportunities where you can toss more money into a low market, buying more and more shares. Force yourself to cackle madly to overcome your backwards fears that this is somehow a terrible idea if you must.

This sounds dangerously close to DCA (dollar cost averaging--dangerous in the sense that Index fund peoples think this is a losing idea...it generally is), but it's not like you are holding off purchasing shares. Assuming you have regular monthly/bi-weekly contributions, nothing really changes beyond putting more money in at down times. Then, if you discover you weren't going to spend that money anyway, you can keep those larger contributions permanent...and you're even further ahead.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,131
30,082
146
True the longer the history the better. 5 years history is my minimum to even consider a fund. I actually like to see a funds historical performance during tough times like a recession or a correction year like we are in right now.

yeah. I almost bought into a fund a few weeks ago because that lifetime performance was so high, but then I noticed it was born after 2009. It's 3 and 5 year average was no different than others, and YTD was even shittier than expected.
 

TallBill

Lifer
Apr 29, 2001
46,017
62
91
I guarantee that none of you guys beat the s&p 500 over any lengthy period of time. Trying to beat the market is a waste. You should only time adjustments of stock to bond ratio in order to plan life events.
 

SeductivePig

Senior member
Dec 18, 2007
681
8
81
It's so funny - the people that are financially retarded are the ones asking questions like:
1) Should I withdrawal funds from my 401k and pay the taxes, PLUS a 10% penalty?
2) Should I move my assets after the X market drop? I fear y market drop is coming next!!

Put it in a low cost Index fund and forget it even fucking exists. You know what decision I made based on the market drop? I fucking cranked my 401k contributions up to the maximum allowed by my employer. I already maxed it out for the year because it's much more probable that this will be the low point of the year.

tl;dr: Quit thinking you are financially smart enough to manipulate the market in any way. Put your money in a low cost diversified Index fund and forget it even exists. Any other advice is just pure stupidity.

Well, this is what I'm actually trying to do. I said I wanted to do a low cost index fund in the OP

I'm about to transfer my existing funds (only $5500 so far) into VFIAX and VIMSX (80%/20% split). Any advantage to doing that over just 100% in VFIAX?

Also I noticed VFIAX has a $10k minimum.. does that apply to retirement accounts too?
 
Last edited:

monkeydelmagico

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2011
3,961
145
106
Seems like a lot of people are overweight stocks. I'd advise against >50% market exposure at this point in time. Make sure your 401k has a decent allocation of cd's, munis, treasuries, maybe even a bit of GLD, REIT, etc. Get defensive right now. If you can lock in any kind of return you will be doing better than most.


Good luck
 

SeductivePig

Senior member
Dec 18, 2007
681
8
81
Seems like a lot of people are overweight stocks. I'd advise against >50% market exposure at this point in time. Make sure your 401k has a decent allocation of cd's, munis, treasuries, maybe even a bit of GLD, REIT, etc. Get defensive right now. If you can lock in any kind of return you will be doing better than most.


Good luck

Thanks for the advice, but I'm sticking with Vanguard. Tried and true.

Just need to know if I can roll over my $5500 balance to VFAIX if it's got a $10,000 minimum.. heard there's a $20 yearly fee if it's less than a $10,000 balance. not too bad I think?
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,131
30,082
146
Seems like a lot of people are overweight stocks. I'd advise against >50% market exposure at this point in time. Make sure your 401k has a decent allocation of cd's, munis, treasuries, maybe even a bit of GLD, REIT, etc. Get defensive right now. If you can lock in any kind of return you will be doing better than most.


Good luck

This is great advice if you plan to retire in 1 year (or never).

The value of balancing beyond total stock exposure in a single perfect index fund is old thinking at this point.

http://jlcollinsnh.com/stock-series/
 
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zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,131
30,082
146
Thanks for the advice, but I'm sticking with Vanguard. Tried and true.

Just need to know if I can roll over my $5500 balance to VFAIX if it's got a $10,000 minimum.. heard there's a $20 yearly fee if it's less than a $10,000 balance. not too bad I think?

are you still trying to roll out of your 401k into your own IRA? didn't you say that your 401K offers good index options?

to clarify--reinvesting within your 401k is not the same as a roll over.

those 10k minimums apply to personal accounts. Employers often have access to the admiral, and even better-institutional share classes with no minimums attached. If you are seeing that minimum listed, it looks like you are going your own personal route...which is great as something else. ...but don't take money out of your 401K if you already have great options there.

reinvest within the 401K, but then continue to save even more money by opening your own IRA and even a taxable brokerage account and dump piles of money there. If you want to hit the 10k minimum in those personal accounts, just start with the investor class (usually 3k minimum) and once that share ownership hits 10k, that becomes eligible for Admiral shares.
 
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SeductivePig

Senior member
Dec 18, 2007
681
8
81
are you still trying to roll out of your 401k into your own IRA? didn't you say that your 401K offers good index options?

to clarify--reinvesting within your 401k is not the same as a roll over.

No, I found out that I can just invest future contributions as well as move my existing balance to a different fund.

So I want to roll over my funds from the T. Rowe 2050 to Vanguard Admiral 500 Index (VFAIX). Problem is the minimum is $10,000, but I only have $5,500. Will hit $10,000 later this year.
 
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