41K* for the Volt

[OFFascist]

For the price I'd rather get the Nissan Leaf (wish it wasnt so ugly), and used gas powered car for out of town trips. Or a Leaf and a Solar Panel/Wind Turbine set up to generate my own power.

That being said I'm going to wait for the Toyota/Tesla Rav4. Commuter vehicle with some off-road ability is what I'd want.

 

[StageLeft]

That seems a lie that the power for an e mini is only $25 over 8000 miles, seems like they're off by some decimals but maybe not.

 

[zoiks]

What a joke!

In the very least it's an effort to steal the $7,500 government tax credit incentive away from the consumer, which is obviously incorporated into the overpricing of this vehicle.

Have you been living under a rock or something? $40k was always the price that was anticipated for the car. This was the price that GM suggested like 3 years ago when the car was introduced.

 

[DietDrThunder]

Not everyone commutes 100 miles a day to and from work. My roundtrip commute to work is something like 12 miles. I can't remember the last time I drove more than 40 miles, probably not in the last year, which means I could have gone an entire year without putting gas in my car.

Coincidently, this is roughly how much I drive a year, maybe a bit less, closer to 7500 miles. Comparing my annual gas bill now of about $1550, if I could cut that down to $25 a year, I'd be saving $1525 a year in gas or about $7625 over the course of 5 years. Just because your driving patterns are not ideal for a car like this, doesn't mean that there aren't people out there who couldn't find real world financial benefits from a car like this.

As has already been mentioned, this is basically a proof of concept vehicle that is being put on sale to make the gov't happy. The first generation is never going to be the cheapest. Prices will come down as the technology matures. The average price of a car sold today is around $35k, so it isn't really that expensive to begin with. The average person buying a car today could afford this and isn't broke like everyone on this board.

so you never leave town?

My driving habbits are very simular to Pariah's. I use my '63 Chevrolet Corvair as my daily driver (just because it is fun to drive), and average 24mpg city. I drive 28 miles round trip including running some kind of errand on the way home (around 6,300 miles per year). My wife drives a 2009 CTS, we bought it new in January of 2009, and it has a total of around 7,200 miles on the odometer (roughly 87.5 miles per week). She telecommutes 3 days a week, so she doesn't drive much. If this Chevy Volt had been marketed as a Cadillac, I might have bought one for my wife instead of the CTS (but as a 2nd or 3rd generation, not a 1st gen so they can work all the bugs out). Do we ever leave town? Sure, we take our 2003 Chevrolet Trailblazer, much more comfortable for long trips and gets 20mpg highway, but it pretty much just sits in the garage.

 

[Ns1]

lol


all of a sudden that prius doesn't seem overpriced

 

[GuitarDaddy]

Inside Line ran their Electric Mini for ~8k miles. Their total electricity cost came out to $25.50.

http://www.insideline.com/mini/cooper/2009/long-term-test-2009-mini-e.html

I find that quite hard to believe with the electricity prices that I pay. Hell my 1 1/2hp pool pump that draws 11amps costs $100/mo to run during the summer.

And I'm supposed to believe that a car with a 40mi range can go 8000k miles on $25? Lets see, 8000/40 = 200 full charges $25.50/200= $.1275 per chg ?

Sorry, I ain't buying it, their calculations are messed up somewhere. 12 cents per full charge or .3 cents per mile is just not believable. If this proved to be true I'd lease one @ $350 tomorrow.

*edit*
Yep, my suspisions have been confirmed, check out the first comment on the linked article from a guy who drove the car 33k miles over a year at an electricity cost of $1200 or $.03 per mile 10x more than reported in the article.

And I quote him "And yeah, the $25.50 for 7,600 miles is way off guys. If that were true, even the EV haters would consider buying one! Remember the staff would slow-charge the car at home when they took it for a few days. If your office meter showed only $25 in electricity used than you probably only drove the car 800 to 900 miles using office juice and the rest was driven using electricity from the staffs homes"

So it looks like a daily 40mi commute would cost roughly $1.20/day or $25/mo in electricity. Pretty good but still about half what an economy car getting 40mpg would spend in gas.

So econo box $200/mo payment + $50 in gas vs. Volt $350/mo payment + $25 in elec.

 

[Arkaign]

Lots of good points have been made. For a lot of people, this is too expensive to make sense right now, but I'm glad this major 1st gen is being made. This kind of ability to drive on pure electric but maintain the freedom of gasoline is a beautiful concept, and it appears that it works quite well. If the end-cost can come down by a good bit in the next 5-10 years, I'd really like to own something in the vein.

People are forgetting one major bonus about this type of vehicle :

If electricity prices triple for some weird reason, it still doesn't cost an exhorbitant amount to drive this thing around town. If gas prices triple for some reason (like a hot war with Iran for example), well even my Focus is going to start breaking my bank at 33mpg average. Don't forget that China and India are constantly increasing their demands on fossil fuels, which is just going to make prices on gas/oil/diesel continue to ramp up exponentially for the forseeable future. I know it sounds nuts, but we could be spending $9/gallon by as soon as 2015 even without a major war.

 

[Kntx]

The argument that a technologically exotic car has to make economic sense is ridiculous. I don't see anyone performing a cost benefit analysis on exotics that distinguish themselves by having massive horsepower or impressive interior appointments. The car is not targeted at the low end. If you want the best bang for your buck look elsewhere.

 

[superunknown98]

The argument that a technologically exotic car has to make economic sense is ridiculous. I don't see anyone performing a cost benefit analysis on exotics that distinguish themselves by having massive horsepower or impressive interior appointments. The car is not targeted at the low end. If you want the best bang for your buck look elsewhere.

But thats the thing, it's not that exotic and it should make economic sense. Hell, top gear managed to make the Hammerhead-i Eagle Thrust, which if you recall used a ICE in the same manor. Why do they need such a huge engine to just be a generator? The engine alone could power the car. Why not use a two cyclinder motorcycle engine and save a ton of money/weight? (if there is an answer please tell me). Economically, who are the people who normally buy fuel efficent cars? People who cannot afford to drive a 10mpg hummer. If everyone could afford gas for a Lamoborghini I doubt they would drive a honda civic.

I know the batteries and electrical wizardry are expensive to make so why attach them too a typically inexpensive car where people are less likely to swallow the price? It's like ordering a value meal at Mcdonalds, where the burger is normal price but the drink is 1000 dollar champagne.

 

[alkemyst]

wow OP bitching about the car he can't afford.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

wow OP bitching about the car he can't afford.

where did the OP say that?
it just makes no financial sense to purchase the car.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

and also, has GM addressed what one is to do with the gas if it has been sitting in the tank unused for a year?

 

[alkemyst]

where did the OP say that?
it just makes no financial sense to purchase the car.

most cars over $3-10k make no financial sense really.

 

[zerocool84]

But thats the thing, it's not that exotic and it should make economic sense. Hell, top gear managed to make the Hammerhead-i Eagle Thrust, which if you recall used a ICE in the same manor. Why do they need such a huge engine to just be a generator? The engine alone could power the car. Why not use a two cyclinder motorcycle engine and save a ton of money/weight? (if there is an answer please tell me). Economically, who are the people who normally buy fuel efficent cars? People who cannot afford to drive a 10mpg hummer. If everyone could afford gas for a Lamoborghini I doubt they would drive a honda civic.

I know the batteries and electrical wizardry are expensive to make so why attach them too a typically inexpensive car where people are less likely to swallow the price? It's like ordering a value meal at Mcdonalds, where the burger is normal price but the drink is 1000 dollar champagne.

Like has been said a million times already, it IS exotic. It's a new way to power a car that's not been done commercially to this extent before.

 

[Bignate603]

But thats the thing, it's not that exotic and it should make economic sense. Hell, top gear managed to make the Hammerhead-i Eagle Thrust, which if you recall used a ICE in the same manor. Why do they need such a huge engine to just be a generator? The engine alone could power the car. Why not use a two cyclinder motorcycle engine and save a ton of money/weight? (if there is an answer please tell me). Economically, who are the people who normally buy fuel efficent cars? People who cannot afford to drive a 10mpg hummer. If everyone could afford gas for a Lamoborghini I doubt they would drive a honda civic.

I know the batteries and electrical wizardry are expensive to make so why attach them too a typically inexpensive car where people are less likely to swallow the price? It's like ordering a value meal at Mcdonalds, where the burger is normal price but the drink is 1000 dollar champagne.

There's a very good reason why they have that sized engine. The minimum power they want the engine to put out is the amount of power it will take to maintain highway speeds while going up the maximum grade that's supposed to be used on an interstate. They don't want someone who's been driving for hours and has depleted the battery to get to a long grade and have to slow down to 25 mph because they don't have enough power to maintain speed.

Also, while a 1.4 liter engine sounds like a decent sized engine because it's not any smaller than engines in some other economy cars. If you take a look at the amount of power though it starts to make sense. The engine only produces 71 hp. That means they designed the engine for maximum efficiency. The hp/liter seems very low but the amount of power per unit of fuel used will be better for an optimized engine.

 

[LTC8K6]

The battery in the Volt is always available to help climb a hill or help with acceleration. It is kept at a minimum charge level, it is not allowed to be fully depleted. So, even after your 40 all electric miles, you still have battery assist for hills and bursts of "speed".

 

[StageLeft]

What happens to this thing if you're running from the cops on the highway or doing ovals? I mean really I wonder what happens, and the same goes for the Prius--you'd be left with just the gasoline motor and no electric assist.

 

[zerocool84]

What happens to this thing if you're running from the cops on the highway or doing ovals? I mean really I wonder what happens, and the same goes for the Prius--you'd be left with just the gasoline motor and no electric assist.

lol seriously you have to bring this up like it's an actual worry???

The type of people that buy these cars won't be running from the police anyways. Hell, they probably won't even get stopped by them.

 

[MikeMike]

bitch, moan, bitch, moan,

GM won't sell them
GM sucks

bitch moan bitch moan.

GM will sell EVERY SINGLE FUCKING VOLT it produces for the next 3 years...

seeing as how GM is only producing 10k the first, 20k the second, and 40k the third...

yea, guys...

They don't have the capacity to try and whore this off the lot... it will FLY, if you want to be an early adopter, of a new, hopefully impressive, piece of equipment, you better buy soon.

 

[LTC8K6]

Ford would sell a lot of 5.0's with a $7,500-$12,500 taxpayer funded rebate...

 

[LTC8K6]

What happens to this thing if you're running from the cops on the highway or doing ovals? I mean really I wonder what happens, and the same goes for the Prius--you'd be left with just the gasoline motor and no electric assist.

You always have battery assist with the Volt.

 

[Squisher]

Porsche 918 Hybrid----$600K

 

[Bignate603]

The battery in the Volt is always available to help climb a hill or help with acceleration. It is kept at a minimum charge level, it is not allowed to be fully depleted. So, even after your 40 all electric miles, you still have battery assist for hills and bursts of "speed".

The battery has a finite amount of power. At some point if you are pushing the car so that it is consistently putting more power to the ground than it can get out of the generator you will get to the point where the battery is depleted.

This could be something as simply as cruising at high speeds for a while, or an incredibly long hill after you've already driven past the all electric range. While someone that actually cares about burning gas wouldn't be cruising at 85 mph you know that there are going to be people that will do it and eventually hit the point where there is absolutely nothing left in the battery.

 

[MikeMike]

The battery has a finite amount of power. At some point if you are pushing the car so that it is consistently putting more power to the ground than it can get out of the generator you will get to the point where the battery is depleted.

This could be something as simply as cruising at high speeds for a while, or an incredibly long hill after you've already driven past the all electric range. While someone that actually cares about burning gas wouldn't be cruising at 85 mph you know that there are going to be people that will do it and eventually hit the point where there is absolutely nothing left in the battery.

uh...

uh...

care to back up your bold statement?

and this incredibly long hill better be like 10 miles...

using 70% of the battery, gives you ~40 miles

that leaves 30%, plus the generator...

 

[LTC8K6]

The battery has a finite amount of power. At some point if you are pushing the car so that it is consistently putting more power to the ground than it can get out of the generator you will get to the point where the battery is depleted.

This could be something as simply as cruising at high speeds for a while, or an incredibly long hill after you've already driven past the all electric range. While someone that actually cares about burning gas wouldn't be cruising at 85 mph you know that there are going to be people that will do it and eventually hit the point where there is absolutely nothing left in the battery.

The charging system will not allow the battery to get so low that it can't provide assist. You have the on-board generator plus regen braking to keep the battery at the "customer depletion point" of about 30% charge. So, you will always have battery assist in the Volt, barring a malfunction.

Zero indicated on the battery gauge to the driver, is actually just the customer depletion point, the battery still has plenty left if necessary.

**********

Below is Volt chief engineer Andrew Farah explaining how the Volt will behave at and beyond that level.

How will the vehicle’s propulsion system work when you get to the customer depletion point?

When you get to the customer depletion point, the engine will come on seamlessly as it’s supposed to. But when the engine comes on to spin the generator, it does so with the idea that we’re generating electric energy to drive the wheels, not to charge the battery. People say the engine comes on to charge the battery, but that’s not what really goes on. The engine comes on to make enough electric energy to turn the wheels, because the wheels are always turning electrically.

Now comes the fun part. Remember the electric generator is about half the size of the motor. So you say, how come you don’t have performance problems if you’re trying to go up a hill with only basically half the power capability? That’s where the battery comes back into play. Because the customer depletion point is not full depletion, there’s still energy available. That’s by design. The idea is during certain other peak situations such as climbing a hill or merging into traffic, you will actually take some more energy out of the battery. So you may actually come down a little bit below customer depletion level.

And then when you take your foot off the gas, as an example when you’re done doing the merge, we had taken a little bit out and the battery has a little less in it. So what we’ll do then is we will opportunistically put that energy back into the battery either through regenerative braking or if we have to we will take some of the energy that’s not needed to turn the wheels and bring the battery up to the customer depletion level.

So we don’t recharge the battery. The customer wont actually see any of this, as their electric range indicator in the car will only say zero.

We are actually using that battery at that point as a peak buffer and we will keep trying to recapture energy as the opportunities allow.

Is the customer depletion point going to be exactly 30% state of charge (SOC)?

We are continuing to tweak and tune and develop exactly what that number is.