41K* for the Volt

[LTC8K6]

You just don't need that much power while cruising, even at 85mph. The generator will have plenty extra to keep the battery at the CDP so it can provide assistance. This thing is not going to be a speed demon, so you will not be able to deplete the battery very easily.

 

[LTC8K6]

The idea is to charge the battery only off of the grid, not using fossil fuels. That's why the ICE cannot top off the battery, but can only keep it at the CDP.

So, if you run out of fuel in your Volt, you cannot move.

The idea is to arrive at your destination with a depleted battery, so that your local travel is powered by the grid, not by gasoline.

 

[BoberFett]

So we don’t recharge the battery. The customer wont actually see any of this, as their electric range indicator in the car will only say zero.

I'd actually prefer to see the actual battery level, and not what they think I want to see.

 

[LTC8K6]

I'd actually prefer to see the actual battery level, and not what they think I want to see.

Me, too.

I'd also like the option of letting the ICE fully charge the battery.

You know the hacks and mods will be out quickly.

One of the first hacks will probably be to reset your depletion point to whatever you want.

 

[Vette73]

Wow some of really look like idiots.

This is a low volume production car that is first gen on top of that. Only making 10k the first year they will sell out in no time. To put that in perspective GM usually makes/sells over 30thousand Corvettes every year, a car that starts in the high 40k and “makes no financial” sense to anyone.

Hell anything larger then a Chevy Aveo, Honda Fit, etc… “makes no financial” to the majority of buyers out there. Lamborghinis, Corvettes, and large SUVs that are only driven to the store by 1 person still sell plenty each year even though there are Cars/Trucks that make more financial sense.

The Volt is a first Gen product and if it works out and they can get the Battery tech down in cost and maybe more storage room will be in a lot of cars in our lifetimes. Look at the history of the Hybrid from the Insight to first gen prius to what we have now. Toyota admitted they lost money selling the first gen hybrids. Now they probable make a good amount of money and it helps their image as well.
The Volt will be around for at least 3-5 years. Unless it is a major failure its Tech will be around much longer.


/Comic Sans :twisted:

 

[pyr02k1]

Below is Volt chief engineer Andrew Farah explaining how the Volt will behave at and beyond that level.

How will the vehicle’s propulsion system work when you get to the customer depletion point?

When you get to the customer depletion point, the engine will come on seamlessly as it’s supposed to. But when the engine comes on to spin the generator, it does so with the idea that we’re generating electric energy to drive the wheels, not to charge the battery. People say the engine comes on to charge the battery, but that’s not what really goes on. The engine comes on to make enough electric energy to turn the wheels, because the wheels are always turning electrically.

I've never been big on hybrids or electric cars (in the sense of looking into them, not against owning them), but wouldn't it make more sense to make this into a hybrid style "charge the battery" as the engine kicks, not just "drive the wheels" only? I mean that as drain to CDP, then use the engine to drive the wheels with whatever is needed, and charge the battery with excess. Increase the size of the generator if needed (if all it can provide is just enough to keep the car moving at speed and not an ounce more, that would seem like an engineering error).

Chevys site doesnt, at least not bluntly, say the overall range of the car, gas and electric included. I saw a few people say 340, so I'll go with that. If you can go 340 miles, fill the tank, then do only 300 miles. Assuming 80mph the whole time, under 4 hours of driving solid before you fill up again. So in that 4 hours, if it could fully charge the battery, while under power for movement, in say an hour, then do full electric like a hybrid can, you should be able to go nearly (including initial 40mi), 420 miles or so. Wouldn't that hold more sense then waiting to plug in (and in cali that might be bad in the middle of the day) every day. If you do short trips, and only use electric, plugging in is great. But for longer commutes, and not being required to plug in to get the benefits of having an electric capable vehicle, it would be more helpful.

If I remember reading right somewhere, its a 12gal tank. So 340/12 = 28mpg in a perfect world. Many prius users claim 45-50mpg average over 20k miles or so. Should be a 11.9gal tank. So, perfect world again, around 535 continuous miles on nearly the same tank size. Just seems to be a bit off to me personally.

Note: Its 5am, ive been up 4 hours on 3 hours sleep, so I may be a ways off or just not grasping why its such a big deal, but it seems logical that a prius is a better choice then a volt when comparing what kind of mileage you can get out of a car. Screw all electric if I can only make 340 miles between it and the gas engine, when for less money you can get another 200 miles for the same amount of gas.

Just throwing it out there.
--pyr0

 

[Vette73]

^

"The Volt's range-extending gasoline engine is expected to get approximately 50 mpg-US (4.7 L/100 km; 60 mpg-imp) on the city cycle of the EPA's test while operating in this Charge Sustaining (CS) mode"

The gas tank is only 9 gallons, not 12.

"Report: Chevrolet Volt Gas Tank is 9 Gallons".
http://gm-volt.com/2010/06/28/report-chevrolet-volt-gas-tank-is-9-gallons/

It was never in the 12 range. It has always been in the 6-10, I thought there was talk about 5gallon but this peice says 6-10.

 

[Vette73]

lll

 

[StageLeft]

lol seriously you have to bring this up like it's an actual worry???

The type of people that buy these cars won't be running from the police anyways. Hell, they probably won't even get stopped by them.

I do ovals a few times/year, I thought everyone did. Running from cops less often, maybe every 2-3 years.

Ford would sell a lot of 5.0's with a $7,500-$12,500 taxpayer funded rebate...

Heck yes, you could even with a $7500 rebate get a brand new kia for under $5k.

I'd actually prefer to see the actual battery level, and not what they think I want to see.

I presume so, too, but you may get used to it. The Prius for example has no RPM gauge, it's impossible to tell what the engine is doing RPM-wise. Also it has no temperature gauge; you simply have to trust that the thing isn't overheating. I presume a pretty big "stop now" light would come on if it overheated, though, but there's no way to tell how warm it is. In practice I completely don't miss these.

50 mpg sounds reasonable on gas, same as a Prius and essentially once the battery in the volt runs out it's acting in much the same way a prius does anyway based on what that engineer wrote. There is something very special about driving 50 miles to the gallon around the city, it is a new level of consciousness that most have yet to experience, but eventually we all will.

 

[Bignate603]

uh...

uh...

care to back up your bold statement?

and this incredibly long hill better be like 10 miles...

using 70% of the battery, gives you ~40 miles

that leaves 30%, plus the generator...

What is there to backup? I know how the car works, but my statement is based off a few facts.

1. The battery level is finite.
2. You can do things that drain the battery faster than it charges.
3. People do stupid things
4. Things go wrong, especially with new technology

You put those things together and you're going to have a few people that end up with out any usable power left in the battery so the car needs a 'limp home' mode. I'm not saying that it will be common and your will either need to be driving like an idiot, driving in very demanding conditions (like a VERY long hill up the highway), or have your vehicle malfunction.

Me, too.

I'd also like the option of letting the ICE fully charge the battery.

You know the hacks and mods will be out quickly.

One of the first hacks will probably be to reset your depletion point to whatever you want.

We've been through this before, there is basically zero advantage to charging the battery a significant amount off the generator. At best you'd end up without any savings, at best you'll end up burning more gas because you'll arrive at your destination where you can charge with more than the bare minimum in the batteries. Extra power stored in the battery = extra gas burned to create that electricity. Making that option available will just give idiots the opportunity to burn more gas than they would need to.

Also, that depletion point is set to extend the battery life. Changing it around could adversely affect your battery life and at the very least it will completely void your warranty on the most expensive part of the car.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Wow some of really look like idiots.

This is a low volume production car that is first gen on top of that. Only making 10k the first year they will sell out in no time. To put that in perspective GM usually makes/sells over 30thousand Corvettes every year, a car that starts in the high 40k and “makes no financial” sense to anyone.

Hell anything larger then a Chevy Aveo, Honda Fit, etc… “makes no financial” to the majority of buyers out there. Lamborghinis, Corvettes, and large SUVs that are only driven to the store by 1 person still sell plenty each year even though there are Cars/Trucks that make more financial sense.

How about "purchasing the Volt makes no sense if saving money (operating costs + cost of car) is your primary goal."

The same goes for purchasing a Corvette, if overall cost of ownership is your main concern.
But then again, those purchasing Corvettes and Lambo's aren't doing it for that reason, so your argument falls horribly flat on its face.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

and also, has GM addressed what one is to do with the gas if it has been sitting in the tank unused for a year?

anyone?

 

[AMCRambler]

The Volt looks like a pretty nice car overall. I'm impressed. And while $41k sounds like a lot, I think they've shot for the right price point. Early adopters aren't going to be your lower middle class peons but rather people with more income that are more willing to try a new technology that may or may not pay back.

Looking at the interior I'd say you get a lot for your money. Not only is it cutting edge with the plug in electric tech, but the instrument cluster is a configurable lcd and the stereo is a touch screen lcd. It also comes standard with blue tooth, 5 years of On Star, a 30gb hard drive for music, navigation and all the other things that have become standard on new vehicle. For a new plug in vehicle to keep the price down and performance up I figured there would have had to be compromises like no AC or pretty basic options but GM hasn't skimped on anything with this car.

I'm seriously considering buying one to be perfectly honest but I need more info on the payback of running off the batteries vs the price of fuel including plugging in my normal commute, finding out how long it takes to re-charge (they mention a 240 volt charging station vs a standard 120) and so on. I'm looking at the Chevy site now.

 

[KIAman]

Oh, I've just got to know. What's car engine crap?

Hmmm, let's see, the biggest and most obvious one is EFFICIENCY AT A RANGE OF RPMS!!!!!!

A generator is designed to operate a peak efficiency at a single point in the rev range. A car engine is designed to operate over a wide range of RPMs.

 

[AMCRambler]

Hmmm, let's see, the biggest and most obvious one is EFFICIENCY AT A RANGE OF RPMS!!!!!!

A generator is designed to operate a peak efficiency at a single point in the rev range. A car engine is designed to operate over a wide range of RPMs.

Isn't that what the transmission is for?

 

[Silex]

It's a full electric mini. No gas motor. Range of about 80-100 miles.

On top of this you had to sign a one year lease it for $850 per month. And still demand outstripped supply 4-to-1. Amazing.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

and also, has GM addressed what one is to do with the gas if it has been sitting in the tank unused for a year?

no one eh????

 

[MikeMike]

no one eh????

there is no information about this afaik...

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

there is no information about this afaik...

but it's a very legitimate problem, is it not?

 

[Arkaign]

but it's a very legitimate problem, is it not?

Not really.

~1 year is no issue for fuel unless something is very very wrong with the integrity of the tank/seals.

IIRC, it is usually the combo of an older vehicle with 2-3+ year old gas that can sometimes be a little bit of an issue.

FWIW, I have a USAF buddy that went to Europe for over 2 years in the 90s, came back and started his 92 Jeep Sahara up with no issues out of cold storage with me jumping the thing off.

 

[MikeMike]

but it's a very legitimate problem, is it not?

i would say that people will drive >200 miles at ONE time in a period of a year, more than twice... and refil once... or an equivalent, >50 miles, 40 times a year...

 

[superunknown98]

Wow some of really look like idiots.

This is a low volume production car that is first gen on top of that. Only making 10k the first year they will sell out in no time. To put that in perspective GM usually makes/sells over 30thousand Corvettes every year, a car that starts in the high 40k and “makes no financial” sense to anyone.

Hell anything larger then a Chevy Aveo, Honda Fit, etc… “makes no financial” to the majority of buyers out there. Lamborghinis, Corvettes, and large SUVs that are only driven to the store by 1 person still sell plenty each year even though there are Cars/Trucks that make more financial sense.

The Volt is a first Gen product and if it works out and they can get the Battery tech down in cost and maybe more storage room will be in a lot of cars in our lifetimes. Look at the history of the Hybrid from the Insight to first gen prius to what we have now. Toyota admitted they lost money selling the first gen hybrids. Now they probable make a good amount of money and it helps their image as well.
The Volt will be around for at least 3-5 years. Unless it is a major failure its Tech will be around much longer.


/Comic Sans :twisted:

Everything you buy should make some sort of fiscal sense. When you buy a car for example there are certain criteria you generally require. Let say I want a car that provides at least 30mpg as I cannot afford more and it needs leather. Well I wouldn't start looking at F-350 dually's would I? At that point I would find a group of cars that meet my critera and has all the options I want for the lowest price. That makes the most financial sense. If you have to have a car that can hit 60 in 3 seconds, they won't be cheap, but one is bound to make the most financial sense. If it meets all your criteria and costs the least, thats the one you buy.

The Volt is the only mass produced personal car with this particular engine setup. So technically yes if your only criteria is to own a car where the gas engine just drives the electric motors then it makes financial sense. For everyone else it's pratically a waste of money and at most a lifestyle statement. not saying it's bad car but it just doesnt make sense.

 

[Arkaign]

Everything you buy should make some sort of fiscal sense. When you buy a car for example there are certain criteria you generally require. Let say I want a car that provides at least 30mpg as I cannot afford more and it needs leather. Well I wouldn't start looking at F-350 dually's would I? At that point I would find a group of cars that meet my critera and has all the options I want for the lowest price. That makes the most financial sense. If you have to have a car that can hit 60 in 3 seconds, they won't be cheap, but one is bound to make the most financial sense. If it meets all your criteria and costs the least, thats the one you buy.

The Volt is the only mass produced personal car with this particular engine setup. So technically yes if your only criteria is to own a car where the gas engine just drives the electric motors then it makes financial sense. For everyone else it's pratically a waste of money and at most a lifestyle statement. not saying it's bad car but it just doesnt make sense.

Make fiscal sense? Why would anyone *need* leather? It's purely a luxury choice. As someone put very well earlier, the best fiscal decision possible is virtually always a solid used basic vehicle, barring the use of mass transit. Hell, if someone doesn't need to take much cargo and can bear the elements, an old NX125 can be set up to get over 100mpg and is dirt cheap to buy/repair/insure.

We have choices, and it's not a bad thing. The Volt will sell well during these limited runs, it's up to GM and competitors to bring the costs down in the future, but complaining about the Volt is only valid if you complain equally about other things that don't make financial sense. Even my stripped 08 Focus coupe was a luxury, I could have bought a $1500 used car and gotten similar fuel economy, and even if it died after 50k miles it would still be more cost effective. Hell if you bought a $1500 car once a year and stuck with just liability insurance, you'd save heaps of money over even the cheapest typical new car over a typical 48mo low-interest loan.

It is all relative though, you just have to realize that one person's preference for leather isn't any more or less valid than another person's preference to have something like the Volt.

 

[Silex]

As someone else put it so eloquently, I see this as a stepping stone to showcase the tech. If anything it gets my blood pumping to know what else is in the pipeline from all manufacturer's. I should probably start a new thread about this one, but the Honda CR-Z seems promising albeit pointlessly boring and not sporty at all like promised.

 

[LTC8K6]

We've been through this before, there is basically zero advantage to charging the battery a significant amount off the generator.

Yes we have.

So what? I see the need and it's my money.

Buy your own stuff and do what you want with it.

If I'm going to a place where I know there is nowhere to charge my car, and I want to travel locally on the batteries when I arrive, being able to charge the batteries with the engine would be a great idea to me. I could hit a switch a few miles out, and have a charged battery on arrival.