4870 with windows 10

[tential]

You didn't address any of my post because I said I'm not impressed with AMD "LATELY". So you just gave a whole bunch of history that isn't relevant to me.

And I still use a mechanical HDD in my HTPC. It does webbrowsing and basic computing fine... I don't NEED an SSD in the pc at all. If I had an HD4870 like the OP, I don't care that a NEW card would be better. Great. AMD should support my card. Not drop my card because "Oh, my newer cards have better idle power consumption so you should buy this. It's best for you." Huh? It's my choice. Great for AMD if the newer cards are better HTPC cards. OP can decide for himself. He shouldn't be forced to.

I've used my GTX 9800M GTS for 8 years now I think? You're telling me it's broken, I'm using it though... I've been using it, I've been happy with it. In fact, you've said the these series are useless, yet THOUSANDS of customers purchased these products and were happy with them.

Really, a lot of this post just isn't relevant to the point I was making and addressing each point that wasn't relevant to me doesn't really make sense.

Still funny about the Windows 10 comment since I'm in the process of upgrading my 9800M GTS laptop with a mechanical drive to Windows 10 right now....

 

[RussianSensation]

You didn't address any of my post because I said I'm not impressed with AMD "LATELY". So you just gave a whole bunch of history that isn't relevant to me.

And I still use a mechanical HDD in my HTPC. It does webbrowsing and basic computing fine... I don't NEED an SSD in the pc at all. If I had an HD4870 like the OP, I don't care that a NEW card would be better. Great. AMD should support my card. Not drop my card because "Oh, my newer cards have better idle power consumption so you should buy this. It's best for you." Huh? It's my choice. Great for AMD if the newer cards are better HTPC cards. OP can decide for himself. He shouldn't be forced to.

I've used my GTX 9800M GTS for 8 years now I think? You're telling me it's broken, I'm using it though... I've been using it, I've been happy with it. In fact, you've said the these series are useless, yet THOUSANDS of customers purchased these products and were happy with them.

Really, a lot of this post just isn't relevant to the point I was making and addressing each point that wasn't relevant to me doesn't really make sense.

Still funny about the Windows 10 comment since I'm in the process of upgrading my 9800M GTS laptop with a mechanical drive to Windows 10 right now....

Well it's hard to have a discussion where you ignore some key fundamentals such as:

1) The consumer's purchasing decision during HD4800 vs. GTX200 series by taking into account the features, price/performance and perf/watt of those cards for gaming at the time of their purchase. You are using hindsight 20-20 to crap on HD4870 today and ignoring what actually happened during that generation. How in the world can you ignore that GTX260 cost $100 more than HD4870? That's akin to an HD4870 user going out and buying a brand new GTX750Ti today. You are not making sense since when someone was buying an HD4870, this was their situation. Today, an HD4800 user has more $ saved to actually go out and buy a modern card so your point for the desktop is moot.

2) Ignoring bit-coin completely which was a money making machine. Your loss but it's a fact that HD4800 series made hundreds and thousands of dollars. So a strong argument is that someone who was tech savvy could have upgraded to future generation of NV/AMD GPU for free or at a large discount, something GeForce 8/9/GTX200 series can't do at all.

3) You can't tell that GTX9000/GTX200 series had inferior 2D vs. HD4800 series but it doesn't mean it's not a fact. For some of us that use our computer for work/typing where 2D IQ is important, it's well worth it to have been using HD4870 for the last 6 years than suffer with GTX200 or 8000 or 9000 series. If you assign no value to 2D IQ, that's fine.

4) You ignored the total cost of idle power consumption vs. that it would have been more cost effective to buy a $20-30 HD5000/GTX600 series AMD/NV card starting in 2011. If you want to be ignorant to this fact go right ahead but it doesn't change the facts that it costs more to keep HD4800 series for the last 6-7 years than just buy a more power efficient card.

5) The fact that you think a mechanical drive from a computer that has GTX9000 series for a windows 10 PC is good enough already shows no reasonable discussion can be had.

What I got out of your post is you don't care about IQ or performance of your PC as long as you can install a driver that is WHQL on your outdated system. AMD sucks cuz they won't have Windows 10 driver for an HD4870! Ok got it.

Also, way to ignore that most PC gamers could care less about 2015 driver support for HD4800 vs. GeForce 8/9/200 series but millions of gamers who bought 2012-2014 Kepler cards matter a lot more. to NV's reputation today. Generally speaking in the past no GPU was expected to even last past 5 years until GeForce 8800GTX came out. So really your point that a 2008 videocard doesn't have WHQL Windows 10 drivers is absurd. If I worked at NV or AMD there is no way I would have allowed my driver team to waste millions of dollars coding drivers for videocards that are absolutely worthless for Windows 10 gaming and a $30 card beats them for basic desktop operations. Good thing NV gets it too and on April 1, 2016 they are dropping a lot of ancient cards and focusing on modern architectures. Programmers cost a lot of $ and it makes sense to make great drivers for modern cards especially when gamers spend $200-600 on them in recent years not in 2008-2009!

Finally, you seem to keep missing the financial aspect a lot. 1 year after AMD's purchase of ATI, NV's market capitalization was 4X that of combined ATI-AMD. Therefore, the driver support for pre-GCN cards isn't realistic from a company that has a lot less financial resources. For the future of PC gaming and having competitors in the GPU industry, we have to keep an open mind about the compromises that have to be made so that AMD can actually survive and make a next generation of cards. I think a lot of PC gamers have long understood this implication and long accepted it when AMD started prioritizing drivers for HD7000 GCN and beyond.

 

[railven]

Friendly reminder, this is the AMD section!

The AMD and Nvidia graphics sub-forums are intended primarily for members who are owners of the respective hardware to seek out and offer peer level technical support, compare and contrast performance and results with other owners, discuss driver updates and installation issues, firmware/cooling modifications, etc.

They are NOT intended for debate, rumor speculation, comparisons between competing brands, or company/business related news. The general Video Cards & Graphics forum is the place for this, as was the case previously. Confine these areas of discussion there, and stop it here immediately.

Take it to general so we can all join in!

 

[tential]

This isn't a discussion about purchasing between the HD4800 and GTX 200 series Russian.

This is a discussion about HD4800 series not working on Windows 10....

This is a discussion about TODAY. Not the past.....
For THIS card, the HD4870.

Not sure what's so hard to understand. AMD isn't supporting this card in Windows 10. I'm NOT impressed.

 

[SPBHM]

your graphs show the HD4550 (basically the same card as a 5450 you mentioned apart from DX11)/4670 with fine power usage, so what is the excuse for that?

my 8400GS IQ is fine on 2D, no idea what are you talking about (better than my 5850 corrupting mouse cursors for so many years)

the whole Kepler thing... really? they are still supporting it

bitcoin... that's not for everyone, pretty irrelevant, unless you used your card for it.

my win 10 test PC is running a mechanical drive and it's pretty fast, faster than the same thing running 7 back in the day... not complains.

also since you mention AA, why not mention AF? AMD had problems up to the 6000 series.

fact is, anything older than the HD5K don't have a win 8.1 or 10 driver available on the AMD website, and windows update gives you no CCC.

compare it to Nvidia 8-9-200 series (or not if it's not allowed in this section, it's all a little confusing not being allowed to mention competing products)

 

[RussianSensation]

This isn't a discussion about purchasing between the HD4800 and GTX 200 series Russian.

This is a discussion about HD4800 series not working on Windows 10....

Ok so if the OP bought GeForce 8/9/GTX200 he couldn't send multi-channel sound to his receiver. Did you not read the OP?

"

Hi, I installed windows 10 on my HTPC which has my old trusty 4870 in it, I cannot scale the image small enough for edges and buttons to show in windows. It runs thru an onkyo 809 to a mitsubishi 72 and I cannot find a scaling option in the windows 10 driver and the old and new catalyst give errors and will not install in windows 10, do you think someone will make a driver for this or do I have to buy a new card just because I installed windows 10. Is there an easy way to roll back to windows 7

thanks for any help in advance.

So either way he would have been screwed. Do you now get the point of bringing GeForce 8/9/200 into the context?

Also, notice the OP can't find a proper scaling option in Windows 10 driver so it doesn't mean it actually doesn't exist. Does this mean it actually doesn't exist or the OP just can't find it? There is an overscan/underscan driver in the CCC panel that should be available.

Sounds like the OP can't find this:

http://prntscr.com/5n90n7

One solution is to find the scaling in Windows 10 itself or dig deeper in the CCC panel:

Click on preferences top right.
Enable advanced mode
You'll get extra options - one of which is display scaling.

Also open windows search bar - type cleartype
Enable it & run through the menus.

 

[SPBHM]

there is no CCC on win 10 for the old cards, that's the point

 

[RussianSensation]

there is no CCC on win 10 for the old cards, that's the point

So you are saying there is no way to manually find this setting?

You guys are quick to bash AMD's drivers but it's not going to help the OP. Why don't we actually try to help the OP solve his scaling problem. What we need is for him to try different things:

http://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/5990-dpi-scaling-level-displays-change-windows-10-a.html

Technical Preview of Windows 10 stated:

"Q: Which AMD products are supported in the Windows® 10 technical preview?
A: All AMD processors are compatible with the Windows® 10 technical preview. In addition, all DirectX® 9-compatible (or higher) accelerated processing units and AMD Radeon™ graphics cards are supported in the Windows® 10 technical preview. Specific legacy products (e.g., AMD Radeon™ HD 4000 series) may require use of drivers provided by Microsoft® through Windows Update with their Windows® 10 installation.

Q: Which graphics driver should I use for my AMD Radeon™ GPU or AMD APU?
A: Microsoft has indicated that updated device drivers are not required at this time, as existing device drivers are compatible with the Windows® 10 technical preview. AMD Radeon™ graphics and accelerated processing unit customers should use the latest available drivers from Windows Update until official Windows 10 driver support is posted on amd.com at a later date."
https://community.amd.com/thread/180474

Therefore, it's odd that there are scaling issues that can't be resolved in Windows itself.

 

[SPBHM]

again, you get a display driver, not the control panel on win10 with the old radeons...

unless windows or another app offers the setting you can't do it without CCC.

 

[Cerb]

Well its very hard to use the buttons when they are all off the side of the screen which makes it pretty much unusable, I can kinda click off the side and get lucky but not really practical. The card worked great for the htpc. It still plays games good also, 4870's were state of the art, not a cheap card back in the day. To totally abandon support of the scaling is just bad business.

Geforce pre-Fermi are in the same boat. It's something you have to get used to, when upgrading OSes. It's not new behavior, and is done by other manufacturers of other devices, too. Without HDMI, all would likely be fine.

However, if you can set the res correctly, and it is the common TV scaling issue, you should be able to fix it, assuming the Windows 8 fix still works.

https://www.google.com/search?q=windows+8+radeon+hdmi+scaling+fix+registry

 

[Cerb]

I blame HDMI more than anything. DVI came out and it was awesome with the display always being set correctly to the monitor. Then HDMI comes out and introduces this retarded overscan/underscan crap. To what point and purpose? Every overscanned or underscanned image has looked like garbage, why would you do that?

Because you don't understand the technology you're implementing, and the people that do can't make you change your view. If it were to be in the standard, it should have been a stream property, similar to interlacing, not anything to do with the devices themselves (its purpose is basically to present legacy recordings correctly, which should account for a minority of content). That was braindead, but I guarantee you some powerful committee members didn't understand what they were creating well enough, and any who did were focusing on damage control.

 

[SparkyJJO]

OP - something that may help perhaps is check your TV input settings. Some TVs have a "PC" mode or similar on the HDMI input (or sometimes a specific HDMI, in my case HDMI 1 can have it enabled). Doing that may sync up the scaling properly on the TV end.

Just a thought.

 

[RussianSensation]

again, you get a display driver, not the control panel on win10 with the old radeons...

unless windows or another app offers the setting you can't do it without CCC.

It seems it's not only an old Radeon issue.

"xxgaboxxhb - Thursday, July 30, 2015 - link
hi i have a GPU nvidia gt630 and the problem is that win 10 doesn`t detect my GPU

i already install the new drivers but still doesn`t detect and i cant open nvidia control panel

i just can open geforce experience plz help "
http://www.anandtech.com/show/9472/windows-10-launch-day-gpu-support-summary

I am sure someone will figure out a guide on how to enable HDMI/PPI/resolution scaling. There is no need to freak out. If it works under Windows 7, it should work under Windows 10 with time and more research.

For example:

>Go to Search
>Type Control Panel
>Select Hardware & Sound and find a section Display
>Select Adjust Screen Resolution
>Now find Advanced Settings and click it
>A menu should pop up with the 1st tab being your GPU Adapter
There you should be able to find a Control Panel for the adapter with Graphics Properties/Settings.

Alternatively under Hardware & Sound
>Select Display
>On the top left side clock Change Display Settings
>Now find Advanced Settings and click it
>A menu should pop up with the 1st tab being your GPU Adapter
There you should be able to find a Control Panel for the adapter with Graphics Properties/Settings.

Also, the OP needs to make sure the driver defaulted to his Screen's native resolution. For example, I installed a new AMD card in a friend's PC and the card defaulted to 1920x1080 on his 2560x1440 monitor. Took 2 seconds to adjust.

 

[SPBHM]

you can't be serious...

we are talking here about lack of support, not one user with an isolated problem, any card older than a 5000 series from AMD is stuck with old drivers from windows update which comes with no catalyst control center.

the fermi card you mentioned should be fine as was my 8400GS when I used it with 10, the win update driver came with the control panel, Nvidia even made available on their website a new driver for their DX10 cards on july 29, AMD doesn't even have anything for win 8.1 on their website for their DX10 cards, if you don't see a difference here...

hopefully AMD wild do something about it, or at least some users will find some hacks to improve this situation,

 

[stahlhart]

Moved to Video Cards & Graphics so that SPBHM and RussianSensation can continue derailing it with the usual arguing.
-- stahlhart

 

[Spjut]

One should also remember that Microsoft is pushing out Windows 10 to all Win7 users.
There are probably still millions of older desktops and laptops out there, not only DX10 systems but DX9 systems as well, that are useless for gaming but perfectly fine for a casual user's needs, playing undemanding games and watching videos. They just don't want to lose functionality by moving to the newer OS.

Back in 2012 I was pissed for AMD that they moved the HD 4000 series to Legacy, those cards were still adequate gaming cards at that time. It didn't even get a proper Windows 8.1 driver.
That really did leave a bad taste in the mouth.

Today though, I'm not expecting new optimizations to be done (though I sure wouldn't mind em!). I just want a proper Windows 10 driver that at least gives me the same functionality in Windows 10 that I get in Windows 7.

And as another user said, these cards are still able to play many popular games.

 

[fastcuda]

I am thinking that a main part of the reason everyone was against windows 8/ 8.1 is that there are thousands of people out there that had these cards and didn't upgrade because they would have to get a new video card. I had 2 computers on windows 8.1 and this one still on 7 because they never fixed the problem back in 2009. So this is not just an amd problem, it filters down to give windows a bad reputation for older cards not working on newer versions of windows and delays the whole technology from updating as it should, even if windows 10 is free, lots of people will not buy a new video card to install it.

If people like some said in this thread really want to move forward and get people on newer platforms and advance technology, then make it so they can install new operating systems without replacing expensive hardware that works fine. And saying that a new card with 80 shaders is better than the old cards with 800 just isn't true.

This will be my last post in this thread, thank you for the ideas and pictures of the control panel that doesn't exist with these cards.

I will be buying a new card but there are lots of people that will still use windows 7 because of this you can bet.

 

[tential]

I am thinking that a main part of the reason everyone was against windows 8/ 8.1 is that there are thousands of people out there that had these cards and didn't upgrade because they would have to get a new video card. I had 2 computers on windows 8.1 and this one still on 7 because they never fixed the problem back in 2009. So this is not just an amd problem, it filters down to give windows a bad reputation for older cards not working on newer versions of windows and delays the whole technology from updating as it should, even if windows 10 is free, lots of people will not buy a new video card to install it.

If people like some said in this thread really want to move forward and get people on newer platforms and advance technology, then make it so they can install new operating systems without replacing expensive hardware that works fine. And saying that a new card with 80 shaders is better than the old cards with 800 just isn't true.

This will be my last post in this thread, thank you for the ideas and pictures of the control panel that doesn't exist with these cards.

I will be buying a new card but there are lots of people that will still use windows 7 because of this you can bet.

Well the thing is, it doesn't give me a bad perception of Windows but of AMD if it won't simply work.

Did you try the Cleartype method RS suggested?
I just installed Windows 10 on my nvidia laptop. No driver options either by default but I'll try installing them and see if it works for me or see if the Cleartype method RS suggested works for me.

 

[SPBHM]

One should also remember that Microsoft is pushing out Windows 10 to all Win7 users.
There are probably still millions of older desktops and laptops out there, not only DX10 systems but DX9 systems as well, that are useless for gaming but perfectly fine for a casual user's needs, playing undemanding games and watching videos. They just don't want to lose functionality by moving to the newer OS.

that's a very good point, MS is being very aggressive with win 10, trying to push it to almost every win7 user, which since is an OS from 2009 "replaced" in 2012 there is a high chance to be running an older GPU; if you have a 4670 like I do for example you lose CCC by moving from win 7 to 10...

Well the thing is, it doesn't give me a bad perception of Windows but of AMD if it won't simply work.

Did you try the Cleartype method RS suggested?
I just installed Windows 10 on my nvidia laptop. No driver options either by default but I'll try installing them and see if it works for me or see if the Cleartype method RS suggested works for me.

I just installed my 8400GS back, windows update already downloaded and installed 341.74 for me without doing anything, and yes it does include a control panel, unlike the 4670

oh, and correcting my previous post, the 8400GS driver is WDDM 1.2, the 4670 is WDDM 1.1

but mobiles GPUs, I'm not sure, their support was always different, I remember trying to update drivers from the Intel IGP (sandy bridge) on a laptop and I was stuck with some old version because the Intel website driver would not install on that gateway laptop, and gateway didn't bother with releasing the new drivers, I'm going to try win10 on that laptop at some point, I'm curious to see how it's going to wok

 

[fastcuda]

Yes I tried the cleartype method and everything else in the thread. Those setting in windows are for changing the size of apps and text but do not re size the entire screen itself. It is support for buying new pads, not using existing monitors.

 

[tential]

Yes, that's a good point I'm on mobile so I may have even less support. I installed windows 10 and lost my nvidia controls. However my screen displays fine. Thanks Cuda for that info so I won't bother with that on my end either. I'd complain on Twitter tbh. I'm about to get a twitter just so I can complain to companies lol.

 

[tential]

Yes, that's a good point I'm on mobile so I may have even less support. I installed windows 10 and lost my nvidia controls. However my screen displays fine. Thanks Cuda for that info so I won't bother with that on my end either. I'd complain on Twitter tbh. I'm about to get a twitter just so I can complain to companies lol.

I was wrong, it did install. I have my nvidia controls. So ya, great job on nvidia's part there.
Great job by MS too. I love Windows 10. I hope AMD gets legacy support but otherwise, I'm happy with their driver for me personally.

 

[RussianSensation]

And saying that a new card with 80 shaders is better than the old cards with 800 just isn't true. .

I didn't see you say anything about gaming so as far as features go for 2D and 3D video, an 80 shader HD5450 is absolutely way better than your 4870 in every regard.

There are fanless cards for $55 that support 3 monitors simultaneously, landscape, portrait, portrait-landscape-portrait, while doing it with mixed resolutions too. Instead of buying one of those years ago, you burned through probably $50+ of idle electricity costs since 2008-2009 on your card and now are complaining you need to go out and buy a new videocard for Windows 10, which is by the way a free OS upgrade from MS, for the first time ever!

The truth of the matter is whether you had an NV or an AMD card from 2008, it's well worth it to upgrade because with NV you are cut off April 1, 2016.

Honestly, you could look at this in a pro-active way and just think outside the box. For example, I am sure you can sell your card for $20 and just get this awesome GTX750 for $50, net cash outlay of just $30. Now you probably have driver support for another 5-6 years and a peace of mind.

Even if your PC was on for just 2 hours a day:

75Watts x 6 years x 2 hours a day x 365 days x $0.15 per kWh = $49 USD wasted on idle electricity alone. It's about time you get a new efficient videocard anyway. So really, there is no need to moan when a 2008 videocard that sucks 75W of power at idle doesn't work smoothly on a 2015 operating system because you would have burned another $40-50+ for another 5 years if it actually worked but would have gotten none of the NV/AMD driver support past April 1, 2016, etc. So in reality, the fact that the HD4870 didn't work is the best thing that happened to you since now you will get a new card that will have 5-6 years of driver support and after 5+ years, it'll pay for itself from idle power usage savings alone. THAT is thinking outside the box. :thumbsup:

 

[SPBHM]

I didn't see you say anything about gaming so as far as features go for 2D and 3D video, an 80 shader HD5450 is absolutely way better than your 4870 in every regard.

try running madvr for example, the 4870 will deliver a lot better performance...

as for the whole power thing, you forget the rest of the HD4K series, yes the 4870 was problematic with it's fixed memory clock, but the 4550 and 4670 were pretty reasonable, still very usable for basic video... the 4550 even made the 5450 look bad at launch, because it was a little faster for games, regardless, I don't see any good excuses for AMD to not be doing what Nvidia is regarding DX10 cards support;

 

[tential]

try running madvr for example, the 4870 will deliver a lot better performance...

as for the whole power thing, you forget the rest of the HD4K series, yes the 4870 was problematic with it's fixed memory clock, but the 4550 and 4670 were pretty reasonable, still very usable for basic video... the 4550 even made the 5450 look bad at launch, because it was a little faster for games, regardless, I don't see any good excuses for AMD to not be doing what Nvidia is regarding DX10 cards support;

Who cares? The point is the OP shouldn't be FORCED to upgrade. Great if it's in his best interest to upgrade, it's HIS decision to do so. Now that he is unable to use the card, he is forced to upgrade to a new GPU, or downgrade to an older OS.

I don't think it's acceptable to be dropping people in a simple update from 8.1 to 10. I'd understand any other update, but this is a FREE update for a lot of people. That is NOT a good look on AMD's part to do that. This was NO brand news to AMD that Windows 10 was coming. There was a LOT of time to get user feedback to ensure their parts worked(Could they even have gotten feedback through MS's program or something?), etc. That is just not acceptable, I'm sorry. As a customer, I'm not expecting to get a free update to Windows 10, to find out I can't use it and have to figure out how to rollback due to my videocard being dropped in a free update....