4870 with windows 10

fastcuda

Senior member
Sep 1, 2000
351
0
76
Hi, I installed windows 10 on my HTPC which has my old trusty 4870 in it, I cannot scale the image small enough for edges and buttons to show in windows. It runs thru an onkyo 809 to a mitsubishi 72 and I cannot find a scaling option in the windows 10 driver and the old and new catalyst give errors and will not install in windows 10, do you think someone will make a driver for this or do I have to buy a new card just because I installed windows 10. Is there an easy way to roll back to windows 7

thanks for any help in advance.
 

Brado78

Senior member
Jan 26, 2015
293
4
81
did you back up windows 7 before installing 10?, If so just wipe you're hard drive and restore the windows 7 image. OR save all of your files and documents and reinstall windows 7.
 

tential

Diamond Member
May 13, 2008
7,348
642
121
You should have an overscan option in the ccc drivers. Use it to fix. I have to set it once on my onkyo 709 then I'm good to go.
 

fastcuda

Senior member
Sep 1, 2000
351
0
76
I cannot get any ccc drivers to load is the reason I cannot scale.Windows 10 removed them and put in a windows driver.

I could re install 7 pretty easily, nothing but windows and kodi on this machine really, just upgraded it to a g3258 and a z97 board a couple months ago, maybe I should just buy a cheap newer vid card for it, I am also missing a couple of the surround sound options because of the age of the video card I believe. maybe a gtx750 those are cheap now.
 

SPBHM

Diamond Member
Sep 12, 2012
5,059
413
126
with a 4670 when I tried the windows 7 drivers on win 10 I think the control panel worked, which was not the case with the win 8 drivers or the win update ones (same as the 8 basically)

but that was early this year before RTM

in contrast, my older (compared to the 4670) 8400GS installs with windows update a much newer driver and control panel works just fine on 10.
 

fastcuda

Senior member
Sep 1, 2000
351
0
76
for some reason the catalyst drivers will not load at all and just fail the installation.
 

96Firebird

Diamond Member
Nov 8, 2010
5,715
316
126
Sorry, I don't think you'll be able to load Catalyst on Win10 to work with your 4870 due to it being on legacy.

AMD said:
All AMD processors are compatible with the Windows® 10 technical preview. In addition, all DirectX® 9-compatible (or higher) accelerated processing units and AMD Radeon™ graphics cards are supported in the Windows® 10 technical preview. Specific legacy products (e.g., AMD Radeon™ HD 4000 series) may require use of drivers provided by Microsoft® through Windows Update with their Windows® 10 installation.

If the MS drivers don't have this option, you might be out of luck... Anything 5000-series and up should work though.
 

fastcuda

Senior member
Sep 1, 2000
351
0
76
Why doesn't microsoft have a scaling option in the driver, seems like a pretty necessary option for any video driver. I thought they had people using this software before release. Did they all have brand new computers?
 

SPBHM

Diamond Member
Sep 12, 2012
5,059
413
126
Sorry, I don't think you'll be able to load Catalyst on Win10 to work with your 4870 due to it being on legacy.



If the MS drivers don't have this option, you might be out of luck... Anything 5000-series and up should work though.

5000 and up are supported by the latest drivers (but pre GCN runs an WDDM 1.3 driver), CCC works

the 4000 series driver from win update seems to be the win 8.0 driver from the AMD website, but without CCC, I tried installing the win 7 driver but CCC doesn't work


as I said the Nvidia driver for the 8400GS from win update comes with their control panel, so I'm not sure it's MS the one to blame.

perhaps someone with some modding skills will be able to make it work.
 
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Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
You should still be able to change the registry entries, just like with other elderly Radeons and Windows 8. Google it, try it, and tell us if it works.
 

fastcuda

Senior member
Sep 1, 2000
351
0
76
I just bought that gt730 on the hot deals sale for 39 dollars, I hope thats ok, for my htpc, if not will replace black friday.
 

MeldarthX

Golden Member
May 8, 2010
1,026
0
76
not bad; but also Fermi looks to be on perm hold for 10 win support at least with 2.0 drivers....
 

SPBHM

Diamond Member
Sep 12, 2012
5,059
413
126
Seems pretty poor of amd to drop this card like that. Sorry op.

I think they dropped in 2012; pretty crazy if you think about it, the 4890 was launched in Q2 2009, and it didn't even get a good win 8.1 driver (it's the same story as far as I can remember, win update installs a 8.0 driver with no CCC and the AMD website only provides 7 and 8.0 drivers)

it received some legacy driver in 2013 but I don't think it did much...
newest for 8.0 (and used on 10 I think) is 13.1 legacy (or 13.4 beta), win 7 seems to have a 13.9 release but it's basically the same...

:thumbsdown:

my 8400GS (same for the 2006 8800GTX) got a new driver yesterday for win 10 and win update installs it perfectly with control panel on 10... my newer an more capable HD 4670 does not,


GT 730 is not the card I would pick, but it should give decent video capabilities and will work fine on 10... it's just that... it's basically a rebranded GT 430 as far as I know, so it's also quite old (closer to your 4870 than to now), Nvidia promised "dx12 support" for Fermi, but apparently haven't even release a wddm 2.0 driver for it yet?
 

Spjut

Senior member
Apr 9, 2011
931
160
106
I think they dropped in 2012; pretty crazy if you think about it, the 4890 was launched in Q2 2009, and it didn't even get a good win 8.1 driver (it's the same story as far as I can remember, win update installs a 8.0 driver with no CCC and the AMD website only provides 7 and 8.0 drivers)

it received some legacy driver in 2013 but I don't think it did much...
newest for 8.0 (and used on 10 I think) is 13.1 legacy (or 13.4 beta), win 7 seems to have a 13.9 release but it's basically the same...

:thumbsdown:

my 8400GS (same for the 2006 8800GTX) got a new driver yesterday for win 10 and win update installs it perfectly with control panel on 10... my newer an more capable HD 4670 does not,


GT 730 is not the card I would pick, but it should give decent video capabilities and will work fine on 10... it's just that... it's basically a rebranded GT 430 as far as I know, so it's also quite old (closer to your 4870 than to now), Nvidia promised "dx12 support" for Fermi, but apparently haven't even release a wddm 2.0 driver for it yet?

Yep, AMD's lacking support for its older products is a huge negative for me as well. I don't expect game-specific optimizations for 5+ years, but I do expect proper support for newer Windows versions.

I'm just curious, what WDDM does your 8400GS report using?



Regarding Fermi, Nvidia's latest promise is that it'll get its DX12 and WDDM 2.0 driver in time for the first DX12 games
http://www.geforce.com/whats-new/articles/windows-10-game-ready-nvidia-geforce-gtx-driver-released
 

Dave2150

Senior member
Jan 20, 2015
639
178
116
Seems pretty poor of amd to drop this card like that. Sorry op.

I'm glad they did - sooner or later decades old hardware needs to be set to legacy and not be compatible with the latest software. It forces people to upgrade and means the average system specification gets increased.
 

fastcuda

Senior member
Sep 1, 2000
351
0
76
I read gt730 was having problems in win 10 also so cancelled that order, tried for a couple hours last night to load legacy drivers and no luck. I need a good card on sale like a 290x at 250 and then I will put that in my game rig and put that 7870 in this one. My 7870 had problems loading win 10 drivers also, got errors with the new driver, not sure what they were but it seems to work finally.
 

tential

Diamond Member
May 13, 2008
7,348
642
121
I'm glad they did - sooner or later decades old hardware needs to be set to legacy and not be compatible with the latest software. It forces people to upgrade and means the average system specification gets increased.

Uh what?
It's nice if it's not supported in games sure.
But that's RIDICULOUS to say "Oh, your GPU is old, it works and is capable of running windows and doing basic daily tasks but lets FORCE you to upgrade."

If I upgrade my 9800M GTS and it works but this 4870 doesn't work I'll be quite sad.

I don't expect to be able to game with old cards at all, but I expect to be able to look at the operating system screen....

I'm sure if I grab an old Core2Duo machine, it'll STILL display output and be able to be usable in Windows 10. So ya, I'm not impressed with AMD lately at all, this has been just been not a great couple weeks for building my perception of this company at all.
 

SPBHM

Diamond Member
Sep 12, 2012
5,059
413
126
I'm just curious, what WDDM does your 8400GS report using?

I would have to check again to be sure (I have uninstalled the card), but I think it's 1.1, the 4670 on windows 10 is 1.1 for sure.

as old as these cards are, they are able to run some of the most popular games on the market (think Dota2, tf2, csgo), also display the user interface or videos (or even GPU decode them), they are all PCI Express and compatible with new motherboards, I don't think dropping basic support like this (for example offering the control panel to change settings) is good for anyone....

I think the OP case is very telling, I think it's most likely that if you are caught in this situation that you will feel unhappy with AMD and buy a competing product, specially knowing that even older competing products got better support than yours did..... so I hope they at least make available a proper win 10 driver with control panel like Nvidia did for their DX10 cards,
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
But that's RIDICULOUS to say "Oh, your GPU is old, it works and is capable of running windows and doing basic daily tasks but lets FORCE you to upgrade."
It just doesn't give you the CCC, which is what you had to go into while AMD supported it, to change the scaling settings. In Windows 8.x, the same registry values for the AMD driver worked for the MS driver.

It's very much like the HDMI value range thing from nVidia, except that they took forever to finally have a driver option to change it.

It's not complete lack of support, just moving who does the support and how, which leaves poor choices for defaults as choices you're more or less stuck with.
 

fastcuda

Senior member
Sep 1, 2000
351
0
76
It just doesn't give you the CCC, which is what you had to go into while AMD supported it, to change the scaling settings. In Windows 8.x, the same registry values for the AMD driver worked for the MS driver.

It's very much like the HDMI value range thing from nVidia, except that they took forever to finally have a driver option to change it.

It's not complete lack of support, just moving who does the support and how, which leaves poor choices for defaults as choices you're more or less stuck with.

Well its very hard to use the buttons when they are all off the side of the screen which makes it pretty much unusable, I can kinda click off the side and get lucky but not really practical. The card worked great for the htpc. It still plays games good also, 4870's were state of the art, not a cheap card back in the day. To totally abandon support of the scaling is just bad business.
 

SparkyJJO

Lifer
May 16, 2002
13,357
7
81
I blame HDMI more than anything. DVI came out and it was awesome with the display always being set correctly to the monitor. Then HDMI comes out and introduces this retarded overscan/underscan crap. To what point and purpose? Every overscanned or underscanned image has looked like garbage, why would you do that?

BTW, 4870 is now 7 years old and was released during Vista which is 3 OS major versions ago (4 if you separate 8 and 8.1). How long do you really think they should provide the latest OS driver support?

Have you checked for those registry entries? Maybe tried installing CCC standalone by itself instead of part of the whole driver package?
 

SPBHM

Diamond Member
Sep 12, 2012
5,059
413
126
BTW, 4870 is now 7 years old and was released during Vista which is 3 OS major versions ago (4 if you separate 8 and 8.1). How long do you really think they should provide the latest OS driver support?

Have you checked for those registry entries? Maybe tried installing CCC standalone by itself instead of part of the whole driver package?

CCC doesn't seem to work installing it from a different driver,

even the 4890 from 2009 is left with no CCC and once Nvidia releases a win 10 driver for their entire DX10 lineup (going as low as 2006) I don't think there is any good excuse for this, it's not like they are going to have to invest all their resources to get their control panel from win 8 working on 10!?
 

tential

Diamond Member
May 13, 2008
7,348
642
121
I'll let you know how it is on my 9800M GTS when I upgrade. I'll start the process now I guess lol.
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
Uh what?
It's nice if it's not supported in games sure.
But that's RIDICULOUS to say "Oh, your GPU is old, it works and is capable of running windows and doing basic daily tasks but lets FORCE you to upgrade."

If I upgrade my 9800M GTS and it works but this 4870 doesn't work I'll be quite sad.

I don't expect to be able to game with old cards at all, but I expect to be able to look at the operating system screen....

I'm sure if I grab an old Core2Duo machine, it'll STILL display output and be able to be usable in Windows 10. So ya, I'm not impressed with AMD lately at all, this has been just been not a great couple weeks for building my perception of this company at all.

Let's address your entire post to provide some context because a lot of people here are quick to create a huge ruckus without considering all other key factors:

1) HD4870/4890 cards are horrible for keeping as HTPC because of their high idle power usage:



Because of this point, over the last 6-7 years of HD4870/4890 ownership, the idle power usage alone meant that for non-gaming needs a $25 HD5450 would have been a better buy as an HTPC card. Frankly, even before we start talking drivers for Windows 10, it was already worth it to get a $20-30 modern card that uses 1/3 to 1/4th the power!

2) The competing series to HD4800 series was even more worthless for 2D/HTCP for 2 simple reasons:

(1) 2D IQ was horrendous on all Nvidia cards prior to Fermi GTX400 series. Ever try using pre-Fermi NV cards for 2D/desktop work?

What about video or movie playback or blue-ray playback? Quick reminder:



(2) GTX200 series can't even pass multi-channel sound over HDMI, something that was only available on HD4800 series from AMD:

"All of AMD's Radeon HD graphics cards have shipped with their own audio codec, but the Radeon HD 4800 series of cards finally adds support for 8-channel LPCM output over HDMI. This is a huge deal for HTPC enthusiasts because now you can output 8-channel audio over HDMI in a motherboard agnostic solution. We still don't have support for bitstreaming TrueHD/DTS-HD MA and most likely won't anytime this year from a GPU alone, but there are some other solutions in the works for 2008." ~ AT

But guess what, see another downside to add to my point number 2) underlined for you which is a big deal for many people running HTPCs today.

That means despite how advanced HD4800 series was at the time, it's still outdated for many usage scenarios today even regardless of W10 drivers. But hey, GTX200 series couldn't even pass 8-channel audio over HDMI.

3) What's better to you -- supporting the latest GPU architectures that gamers spent a lot of $ on (HD5000 series+) or supporting older GPU architectures and neglecting newer series (Kepler)? I would pick the former. While AMD dropped game optimizations for HD4000 series earlier than NV did with GTX200 series, at least AMD optimized every single series from HD5000 to now. Kepler though has atrocious performance and still does after countless driver fixes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wn0zATB-XM

So you know what, I'll take crappy HD4870-4890 series drivers in 2015, 6-7 years after the cards launched, but at least all my future purchases were supported well. The same at all can't be said for VRAM gimped GTX470/570 1.28GB, GTX580 1.5GB, the entire Kepler line-up being neglected for the last 12 months. HD7970 aka 280X is now 71% faster than GTX580 while GTX580 has nothing to show for its huge price premium over an unlocked $299 HD6950 = aka HD6970.

Awesome NV driver support!

4) You are forgetting how much better the entire HD4000 series stack was in terms of gaming price/performance against GTX200 series. One can easily make the argument that if someone was forward looking 5-7 years from that generation, they can easily buy a newer card for Windows 10 today for $50-100 with the $ saved from not wasting it on a more expensive GTX200 series NV card.

AMD demolished NV on price performance that generation while nV charged $100 more for the slower $400 GTX260 vs. $300 HD4870. NV also had no response at all to the $200 HD4850 and even 9800GTX+ was still a worse card overall. It took a $100 price drop and GTX260 216 for NV to be back on the map. This continued for the entirety of that generation where even HD4890 OC could trade blows with GTX285 for a fraction of the cost. I remember buying my 4890 for $195 when 275 was $230 and 285 was $350.

5) Bit-coin mining - HD4000 series' trump card. For a tech-savvy PC gamer, this point alone invalidates any GTX200 series card, period. During HD4870/4890 era, one such GPU could generate 1 bitcoin per day. Do you have any idea how much money that is for someone held on to those coins and sold them at $300-1000 each?

The bitcoins from just HD4000 series paid for 3x GTX470s and HD6950.

6) FYI, NV is putting GTX405 series and below on legacy status as of April 1, 2016. So your 9800 series and GTX200 and 300 series will be just as worthless. In fact, they already have been a long time ago imo because of their inferior 2D IQ and for years incredibly broken Full RGB over HDMI. :hmm:

http://www.guru3d.com/news-story/nvidia-to-end-driver-support-for-legacy-products-up-to-dx10.html

So unless you had the skills to hack your registry or perform the Full RGB fix, the entire NV line-up produced inferior IQ over HDMI, and on top of it inferior 2D IQ before Fermi and on top of overpricing for GTX200 series vs. HD4800 series which means the hypothetical HD4800 user has $$$ left over today to get a $50-100 card! I keep repeating this last point because if we are going to argue the longevity of GTX200 series to April 1, 2016, it's only fair to discuss the $ saved on HD4800 series that can now be used to buy a modern used/new GPU for Windows 10. The theme I keep repeating of never overspending towards a current gen unless you have the means and instead reinvesting the savings towards a future GPU continues to hold true.

7) Should we even talk about how NV's AA IQ was also inferior to HD4800 series during that generation and NV was coming off GeForce 8/9 series that was plagued by bumpgate that killed desktop and laptop GPUs? :biggrin:

And I mean if you are really just trying to use a card for Windows 10, HD5450 for $25 or GT620 I picked up for $20 are way better than any HD4800 or GTX200 series card.

Let's face it, any laptop or desktop from 2008-2009 era probably still has a mechanical hard drive which makes it a POS. That means someone upgrading to W10 will have to get an SSD to start with unless they like suffering in life using an outdated spin drive. What are the chances that someone with an HD4800/GTX200 series card on a desktop who is going to buy an SSD won't have $50 to get a proper modern card?

So overall, in practical terms, I think you need to look at the overall picture imo before bashing AMD and HD4800 series. Imho, the 2D IQ and lack of bitcoin mining on competing NV series was already a non-starter for tech savvy PC gamers in 2008-2009 days.

Side-note: My friend built a Core i5 2500K rig in 2011 and even back then we were able to find a PowerColor HD5450 for $30 Canadian for his Eyefinity monitor setup. The reality is there have been countless cheap AMD and NV cards over the last 4.5 years that are far more power efficient and more advanced feature wise for basic 2D and 3D video operations.
 
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