4k @ 120Hz and HDR going forward

Irenicus

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Jul 10, 2008
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So it seems like displayport 1.3 is going to be too bandwidth starved to allow ALL of the following.

4k + 120Hz + HDR

The slides from amd a few weeks back suggest we can pick two of the three. So...

4k @ 120Hz
or
4k @ 60Hz + HDR


My question is whether it would be possible to have a displayport 1.3 4k display that supported modes for either 120Hz or 60Hz and HDR in the same display?


The panel would have to be a 10 bit color panel from the start, but presumably when running a game with the higher refresh rate allowance a more limited 8 bit color signal would be used in lieu of the 10 bit HDR color signals.


Is that possible? Or will we just have to wait until gpu makers and display makers start building in supermhl to counteract both hdmi and now even the vaunted displayports shortsightedness?
 

ViRGE

Elite Member, Moderator Emeritus
Oct 9, 1999
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I'm not even 100% sure how DP 1.3 will support 4K@120Hz. That would require doubling the bandwidth versus 1.2; but 1.3 only increases it by 50%.

In any case, yes, in theory it's possible. Just send 4K@60Hz@10bpc or 4K@120Hz@8bpc. Whether someone actually builds such a monitor is another question. I would be a bit surprised to see an 10bpc display offer 120Hz in any format.
 

therealnickdanger

Senior member
Oct 26, 2005
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I suggest everyone read all of this:
http://www.displayport.org/faq/

Basically, DP1.3 should be able to satisfy nearly all resolutions and refresh rates and bit depths needed for the next 5-10 years. Without using any tricks, it can do 4K120 8-bit, 4K96 10-bit, 8K60 4:2:0 (for video content), 5K60, etc. It will be enough to transmit UHD Blu-ray w/HDR (the equivalent, at least).

When combined with Display Stream Compression (DSC), which VESA claims to be visually lossless (so not at all the same as chroma compression for video), then the number of available resolutions and refresh rates and color depths will increase beyond those above. We'll see how that pans out, but I have no reason to doubt them at this point.
 

Mr Evil

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Jul 24, 2015
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I'm not even 100% sure how DP 1.3 will support 4K@120Hz. That would require doubling the bandwidth versus 1.2; but 1.3 only increases it by 50%...
DP 1.2 already has enough bandwidth for more than 60Hz. Going by the numbers on Wikipedia, DP 1.2 has 17.3Gbps available, while 4k@60Hz requires only 12.5Gbps. So DP 1.2 should actually be able to go up to 82Hz, and the 25.9Gbps of DP 1.3 is just about enough for 120Hz.
 

Mondozei

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Jul 7, 2013
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Considering that a 980 Ti can barely hit 60 fps in games like Crysis 3 or Witcher 3 at 1080p, I highly doubt we even need 4K@120 fps for any gaming on a high level any time soon. I guess for desktop it'll be nice, for the fluidity, but that's about it.

For all-around desktops, a 165 Hz 1440p HDR with 10 bit color is what I'm aiming for, preferably with OLED.
 

lopri

Elite Member
Jul 27, 2002
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In any case, yes, in theory it's possible. Just send 4K@60Hz@10bpc or 4K@120Hz@8bpc. Whether someone actually builds such a monitor is another question. I would be a bit surprised to see an 10bpc display offer 120Hz in any format.
What about stereoscopic 3D? Unlikely to come to 4K/HDR?
 

ViRGE

Elite Member, Moderator Emeritus
Oct 9, 1999
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What about stereoscopic 3D? Unlikely to come to 4K/HDR?
I get the distinct impression that active shutter 3D is dead, to be replaced by VR headsets. NVIDIA hasn't updated any of their 3D Vision pages in quite some time, and the fact that some of the recent G-Sync monitors like the ROG Swift support 3D Vision essentially went unnoticed.

None of this has been helped by increasingly poor 3D Vision compatibility as game engines get increasingly complex and are unable to have 3D Vision "forced" upon them. The irony being that all of the dev tools NVIDIA is rolling out as part of GameWorks VR to support VR would also serve to improve 3D Vision compatibility.
 

Irenicus

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Jul 10, 2008
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Now that I think about it... the first mega oled display with hdr I am likely to be able to afford will be in 2017 with a presumed s8 edge plus or note 7. By that time, the oled displays from samsung will probably be bumped up to 4k and feature hdr support.
 

Aristotelian

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Jan 30, 2010
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Basically, DP1.3 should be able to satisfy nearly all resolutions and refresh rates and bit depths needed for the next 5-10 years. Without using any tricks, it can do 4K120 8-bit, 4K96 10-bit, 8K60 4:2:0 (for video content), 5K60, etc. It will be enough to transmit UHD Blu-ray w/HDR (the equivalent, at least).

Is the highlighted part above an indication that 4k, 96hz, HDR is possible? Or is 10 bit the first step in improving image quality in games, and HDR the second?

I guess why I'm confused is, wasn't there a Half Life 2 patch that showed off the use of HDR years ago? Why is this being brought to market in hardware now?
 

Mr Evil

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Jul 24, 2015
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What is HDR exactly?
High Dynamic Range. It means that the difference between the lightest and darkest colours is larger than normal.

...I guess why I'm confused is, wasn't there a Half Life 2 patch that showed off the use of HDR years ago? Why is this being brought to market in hardware now?
The confusion is because there are various stages that an image must go through before you see it, and it's possible for HDR to be applied to each of those stages separately. In the case of HL2, the images were rendered in HDR, but since normal monitors don't have enough contrast to show HDR, they used tricks like bloom and dynamic exposure to squeeze the dynamic range down. What we're talking about here is having a monitor with enough dynamic range to display the images that HL2 renders directly.
 

CakeMonster

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Nov 22, 2012
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Basically, DP1.3 should be able to satisfy nearly all resolutions and refresh rates and bit depths needed for the next 5-10 years. Without using any tricks, it can do 4K120 8-bit, 4K96 10-bit, 8K60 4:2:0 (for video content), 5K60, etc. It will be enough to transmit UHD Blu-ray w/HDR (the equivalent, at least).
That could be the saving grace for gaming. I had not even thought of variable frame rates. But here's hoping that all monitors have *Sync technologies as a standard feature in 1-2 years.

I still fear that 4K120 10-bit is 5-8 years away given the how long it takes between the release of new interfaces.

VR in 10-bit is still pretty much a lost cause until then, given its resolution and frame rate requirements for a good experience.
 

therealnickdanger

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For some basic explanations below, I'll reference nits - one candela per square meter. The candela (candlepower) is approximately the amount of light emitted by a common tallow candle, which is also equal to one lumen per steradian. Technically it is the quantity of radiation emitted by 1.667 x 10^-6 square meter of a blackbody at the melting point of platinum.

In the world of RGB-based color display information, 100 nits of brightness is usually reserved for full white (255-255-255). Colors are not as bright as a full white signal. Most modern TVs usually operate at about 500 nits - simply amplifying the brightness of the signal provided (100 nits x 5). Likewise, computer displays usually operate between 150-300 nits. Again, the color information provided still sits within the confines of 100 nits for maximum white. 0 nits = black (no display can do absolute blacks unless it is off, not even OLED), 100 nits = white.

Is the highlighted part above an indication that 4k, 96hz, HDR is possible? Or is 10 bit the first step in improving image quality in games, and HDR the second? I guess why I'm confused is, wasn't there a Half Life 2 patch that showed off the use of HDR years ago? Why is this being brought to market in hardware now?

HDR is metadata transmitted in the stream on top of the 10-bit signal. DP1.3 should have no issues being compatible with this (as they already exceed the HDMI2.0a specification in terms of bandwidth and claim to be compatible).

The difference between HDR in games and HDR in displays comes entirely down to perception vs. reality. Half-Life 2 utilizes HDR rendering to simulate the effect of human vision when exposed to very bright lights in otherwise dark settings. It actively adjusts the brightness of the entire scene based upon whatever the brightest rendered source is (the sun, a lamp, etc.). You can use any display for this, since the peak brightness of your display is not manipulated in any way by the signal - it still never exceeds 100 nits for maximum white level. This results in other colors and dark areas often looking washed out.

HDR displays actually extend beyond the normal maximum brightness level encoded (100 nits) - using those metadata - to provide a full spectrum of brightness for whites and colors. Using the standards for HDR put forth by the UHD Alliance at CES, displays must achieve more than 1,000 nits peak brightness and less than 0.05 nits black level (LCDs) - OR - 540 nits brightness and less than 0.0005 nits black level (OLEDs). By expanding the available brightness information in the video stream, the display can go far, far beyond the 100 nits barrier. This not only makes the difference between the brightest and darkest parts of the display much more extreme (a flashlight in the dark), but also allows for all colors to be displayed at previously unseen levels (outside of real life).



When games start using actual HDR metadata (beyond 100 nits)... every gamer is going to want an HDR-compliant display.

That could be the saving grace for gaming. I had not even thought of variable frame rates. But here's hoping that all monitors have *Sync technologies as a standard feature in 1-2 years.

I still fear that 4K120 10-bit is 5-8 years away given the how long it takes between the release of new interfaces.

VR in 10-bit is still pretty much a lost cause until then, given its resolution and frame rate requirements for a good experience.

4K120 is here now in the shape of the new 30" Dell 4K OLED. With the advent of USB 3.1 C supporting DP over USB, I don't think we'll have to wait long. The displays will be here long before mainstream GPUs will be able to handle the latest games at that resolution and refresh. Since A-Sync is part of DP1.3, I can only assume that anyone making a "gaming monitor" will include it. I guess we'll see.
 

Irenicus

Member
Jul 10, 2008
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If we can still get 10 bit HDR @ 4k up to 96Hz, I think that would be perfectly fine for most gamers. It would be fine for me as I'm not a twitch shooter, and having variable refresh even higher than 60Hz on down ought to make things looks smoother and better allow that 2.5x freesync multiplier for frame duplication amd has built into the driver.


That is the main worry. I am still not completely sure if a 10 bit video stream carries the same bandwidth as a 10 bit color stream + the HDR metadata. Part of this is because on AMDs slides, they specifically showed HDR @4k up to 60Hz, and nothing higher. Was that a technical limitation, or just what they want to start out with in driver support for lack of expected displays?

http://images.anandtech.com/galleri... Embargo December 8 2015 9am EST-page-034.jpg



Also, I noticed from CES dolby was making a splash about dolby vision and it seems they will be going up to 12 bit color for their HDR implementation. AMD specifically mentioned 10 bit and not 12 bit support. I suppose that implies that the gpus we are about to get will only be able to output up to 10 bit color, correct?

And has anyone even seen a 10 bit HDR display right next to a 12bit dolby vision HDR display? Was there a meaningful difference? Will we have to wait and see for someone to actually get the proper impressions?
 
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hawtdawg

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Jun 4, 2005
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Considering that a 980 Ti can barely hit 60 fps in games like Crysis 3 or Witcher 3 at 1080p, I highly doubt we even need 4K@120 fps for any gaming on a high level any time soon. I guess for desktop it'll be nice, for the fluidity, but that's about it.

For all-around desktops, a 165 Hz 1440p HDR with 10 bit color is what I'm aiming for, preferably with OLED.

What is this crap? A couple of Big Pascal's is all it will take to get us most of the way there with those 2 games in particular, much less all the other games out there that run better.
 
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CakeMonster

Golden Member
Nov 22, 2012
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Yep, and don't forget how long we're usually stuck with display connection standards. DP1.3 would likely last for 5-8 years. I can easily imagine it becoming an issue before we have a new standard.
 
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