50" Plasma - Help decide

[destrekor]

I'm looking into the P50ST60, but the reports of input lag worry me.

I'm trying not to break the bank, but want the step-up (ST60) as opposed to skimping on the S60. I know the S64 version available has the AR filter from the ST60, but it still doesn't share the same panel.

On a TV, if I'm playing games, it's console games.
I leave my true competitive FPS and other gaming to my PC, but I still want to be able to compete online in console-only FPS games (PS3 only at the moment, probably get PS4, and while possible, I highly doubt I'd also get the Xbox One - no use doubling up when my focus is PC gaming and the best Xbox games I tend to get on PC)


With that said, I'd like the option to be able to play decently with PC gaming, reason being, I just built an HTPC and I have a passing interest to get Steam Big Picture Mode on there and play some indy games and other non-system-killing games (I have an HD 7750 in it). Games that go well with a controller, as opposed to demanding a KB & M, in other words.

I can do without HTPC gaming, if it really comes down to that... I just want good PQ (I have basically decided entirely on Plasma, after all ) and the ability to, at the minimum, play well with consoles, and not cause issues handling PS3 and HTPC playback through my AV receiver.


I haven't really decided if 3D is a must-have feature or not.
If I decide it's not, I'll probably pick up either the P50S60 from BB or the P50S64, if available, from the nearby Costco (which, I'll need to get a membership, but I'd use it throughout the year anyhow).
The S64 being the better option due to the inclusion of the ST60's AR filter, but otherwise they are identical.


Is there any other current Plasma displays, from other manufacturers, or similar last-year models that I can actually purchase from a trust-worthy source, and in NEW condition? And in saying that, I mean, PDP's that are essentially just as awesome as the ST60 series? If they aren't better in every way, I'd also prefer not to pay even a dime over the P50ST60 average price ($999).
I really don't want to step down from the ST60 to the S60/S64 just to avoid excessive input lag, and lose otherwise beneficial PQ improvements (and I'd use 3D for video, if not all the time, at least occasionally I'm sure).
I also don't want to lose the phenomenal black levels I've heard about from recent Panny's.

Thanks!

 

[hans030390]

I was more or less in the same boat as you. Ended up getting the S64 from Costco (which, last I checked, is no longer available...but they had a lot of units when I went a couple months ago). Don't regret it at all, and it even does well in fairly bright rooms. PQ is fantastic, even if it isn't using the higher end panel. Black levels in a dark, nearly pitch-dark room are incredible. For example, black borders in movies blend in with the black background of the wall/room. Haven't had any issues with input lag, which ended up being my primary concern for plasma TVs. It's really bad on some of the recent models...Not something I was willing to trade off for better PQ. You might think otherwise, in which case I wish you luck finding the right model for you!

 

[destrekor]

I hope someone can help with this:

anyone able to hunt down someone's measurement of input lag for the Sharp LC32D41U ?
That's my current TV. If the ST60 isn't much worse, I might as well just get it since I'd be used to it. If it's markedly different, I should probably look for something else.

 

[pmark]

I honestly doubt you will be able to tell the difference between the S64 and ST60 if they are not side-by-side from each other and even then it might be a stretch. Save the $400 in price difference and just get the ST64. I did that and haven't regretted my decision. I was a little worried about lack of 3D, but everybody that I know who has 3D never uses it.

 

[purbeast0]

i have an ST50 in 60" and i can tell you that these are probably the most "lagless" you can get with a plasma tv. i actually purchased it because of the lag reports on it, and i play fighting games on 360/ps3 and am very picky about lag, and i can tell you that it's virtually lagless on the tv.

since they are the older models i'm not sure how hard/easy they are to come by now a days.

but i love the tv, especially for gaming, although i haven't gamed on it in a very long time since i got my theater setup.

 

[destrekor]

It seems all but impossible to come across the last-years models, like the ST50 series. I'd instantly "settle" for the ST50, as it sounds like the ST60 is the exact same panel, but with a few new add-ons to the submenus, new UI, and of course more Smart features. All of that seems to have added to the input processing time, which creates the lag.
It is available, to some degree, online... but I don't want to deal with shipping, especially for this kind of item - any warranty issues and returns would be brutal.

I can't afford to step-up to the VT60 series, and I don't think I want to drop down to the S60/S64 series (IF the S64 is even available at my local Costco, otherwise it's not even an option).

I can't find any reports for my LC32D41U Sharp LCD, but chances are it probably has a similar input lag.

Mind you - input lag hasn't nothing to do with Plasma. Recent Plasma models actually have great "pixel response times", which is ONE of the big things gamers need to worry about. That's the refresh rate, and what determines if there is ghosting/trailing. Different panel types are more or less prone to that, based on the driving technology.

Input lag, on the other hand, is universal. It's determined based on how much processing is done inside of the display itself, and how well the internal hardware can actually process all of that. Better CPUs should mean they keep up just fine without slowing down.
Some PC displays have terrible input lag, some are fine, some are highly sought after by pro gamers. Some pro gamers still swear by CRTs due to the absolute lack of input lag (zero input processing is done in a CRT, or at least in the vast majority).


That digression aside, I really need to get down to Best Buy today or tomorrow and check out the different Plasmas in person. The lighting will make a good investigation impossible, but hopefully I can see if maybe the S60 isn't THAT much worse.
I'd like to "gamble" on the ST60 - there's a decent chance it won't be much worse than my current TV. And even if it is, any HTPC gaming I do will be entirely controller based so already my competitiveness and effectiveness will drop - likewise for console gaming. If I feel a need to use keyboard and mouse, I'm going to my gaming rig instead of playing from the couch.
And a majority of my gaming is on my gaming machine - the PS3 gets more exercise with video than anything else. Though my console gaming waxes and wanes randomly.

 

[Exterous]

That digression aside, I really need to get down to Best Buy today or tomorrow and check out the different Plasmas in person.

You could always ask them to check and see if they, the warehouse or any nearby stores have the 50. Probably not but you might get lucky and since you're planning on going anyway...

 

[destrekor]

Well, decided to gamble and bought the TC-P50ST60.

It's not hooked up yet, it's just sitting on the entertainment center (will be getting a much better and more suitable one in two months or so, my parents' are giving me their entertainment center/stand when they move since they won't need it anymore).

Yesterday involved flea bombing (one of the roommates' cat(s), yay) completely disconnecting the entire entertainment center, moving furniture and attempting to put the living room into a completely different configuration.
No more corner TV setup! I can actually setup speakers in a Dolby-spec 5.1 setup - finally!

I am so stoked to get everything reconnected and put this TV through it's paces.
Two gambles, however: does it even turn on? We shall see.
Will input lag be a massive headache?

And, well it's a bonus or not: can I handle Active 3D glasses, or will they give me eyestrain/headaches? :hmm:
I've only ever used Passive polarized glasses, this will be a new experience.

 

[classy]

If you are buying plasma, buy Panasonic. They definately make the best plasma panels. I bought a similar model that you did, the 50 inch. Beautiful tv. HD channels are truly nice.

 

[purbeast0]

If you are buying plasma, buy Panasonic. They definately make the best plasma panels. I bought a similar model that you did, the 50 inch. Beautiful tv. HD channels are truly nice.

you should read the post directly above your post heh.

 

[Pacfanweb]

I've yet to put on a pair of active 3D glasses that didn't give me a headache. Not sure if I could get used to it or not.

Only passive 3D I've looked at is LG's LED TV, and while it doesn't give me a headache, it looks like crap.

 

[WaTaGuMp]

Th ST60 is cnets highest rated TV ever, for now. I have a feeling OLED is going to come destroy everything.

 

[Pacfanweb]

I have a feeling OLED is going to come destroy everything.

Yeah, but WHEN? I've been hearing about OLED for years and years now, with nary a set in sight, so speak of.

 

[WaTaGuMp]

Yeah, but WHEN? I've been hearing about OLED for years and years now, with nary a set in sight, so speak of.

BB lists 2 for in store only. Not sure why they list it though when they say unavailable.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Televisi...at301000050010

 

[techietechnics]

I'm currently using a Panasonic 42" Plasma for both console and Desktop PC, PQ is really really great, but burn-outs are noticeable sometimes. Online gaming is not a problem as well. Hope you enjoy your newly bought screen!

 

[destrekor]

Yeah, but WHEN? I've been hearing about OLED for years and years now, with nary a set in sight, so speak of.

BB lists 2 for in store only. Not sure why they list it though when they say unavailable.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Televisi...at301000050010

http://www.adorama.com/SSGKN55S9.html


It appears to be ready for shipping at Adoroma. Can't say for sure that it's in stock, but I know Samsung is also shipping to Europe for it to go on sale this or next week.


It'll be awhile before they are priced competitively and realistically.
Lifespan of all colors will be a critical factor, I'm curious to know how well they will last with these first models. Plasma took a few years to mature before they had a strong lifespan - don't know if everyone waited for the tech to support a long lifespan before releasing, or if this will be the maturing phase.

OLED has the potential to wipe the market - can't say it will be better than other technologies in every way - what is pixel response time, for instance?

And is this PenTile or did they actually release a straight RGB matrix OLED display?

 

[Born2bwire]

Awww... I wanna know how it turned out.

 

[Ajay]

Yeah, but WHEN? I've been hearing about OLED for years and years now, with nary a set in sight, so speak of.

I think that within 5 years OLED will own the higher end market ($2500+). It seems like the best way to move to SHD and improve viewing quality (better blacks, DOF, etc.) so those will be big selling points and motivate Samsung, Sony, et al to push them as sales tools to get people to upgrade their current TVs - IMHO.

 

[Born2bwire]

I still wanna know about gaming on the ST60.

Sigh. Word is that Panasonic is ending their plasma line in March. Won't be able to wait for the model refresh to fix the lag on the ST60 now. Instead, would have to move up to the VT60 series.

 

[destrekor]

I still wanna know about gaming on the ST60.

Sigh. Word is that Panasonic is ending their plasma line in March. Won't be able to wait for the model refresh to fix the lag on the ST60 now. Instead, would have to move up to the VT60 series.

From the other thread about ST60s, it sounds like you have already ordered a VT60?

That might have been the better decision, save for whatever your financial situation is.

I have to say, I am both happy and sad - I have been able to play games without Game Mode even on. I know lag is supposed to be there, and I'm looking for it, but my eyes aren't convinced I'm seeing something I haven't seen before.
Which is to say, it's quite likely my old TV (Sharp LC32D41U) had input lag right around the same measurements. Which also means I am entirely used to console gaming with this situation.

I have NOT tested PC gaming just yet. It will be with Wireless 360 controllers, but PC games aren't really coded to handle the native input lag consoles seem to tolerate. I have Portal 2 installed on Steam on the HTPC, and will be going with emulators for some classics. It probably won't be until I test 2D scrolling classics to truly know if I can tolerate this display for that. If I can't, well oh well, one I'm beyond the return window, and two, well... everything else is just perfect.

I actually hope I can continue to play with game mode off. I turned it on one time while playing GTA V, but I doubt that is the right game to test for a perceived difference, because I spotted none.
If I don't have to turn it on/off every time I want to play games, I'll be excited. I'd hate having to remember to mess around in the TV Menu every time.

 

[hans030390]

The easiest way I've seen someone demonstrate input lag is to do a dual-monitor setup with one monitor next to the plasma. Put a window so that it overlaps onto both screens, and move the window up and down. The example I saw on YouTube made the input lag pretty noticeable with that particular setup. Can't remember the exact TV, but it was one of the nicer/newer Panasonics.

 

[destrekor]

The easiest way I've seen someone demonstrate input lag is to do a dual-monitor setup with one monitor next to the plasma. Put a window so that it overlaps onto both screens, and move the window up and down. The example I saw on YouTube made the input lag pretty noticeable with that particular setup. Can't remember the exact TV, but it was one of the nicer/newer Panasonics.

Easy concept, but a fair bit of labor involved.

That, and it would just ruin it for me at this point. That was something I entertained doing during the first few weeks with the TV.

Breaking out Rock Band would also do it - you can measure/calibrate against the input lag.

The ST60 is one of the most scrutinized displays for input lag, and is probably the model you saw them demonstrate using a window on the desktop.

There was a lengthy thread on avsforum regarding input lag on this model, and it was with a gamble I decided to get this one, because I couldn't afford to step up and didn't want to step down.

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

Makes me glad I picked up a Panasonic plasma a couple years ago now that they are discontinuing them. A shame really as they look fantastic when paired with a blu ray disc.

 

[hans030390]

Easy concept, but a fair bit of labor involved.

Got a laptop you could do a dual monitor setup with using the laptop's display as the primary? Assuming the laptop display doesn't have input lag issues (is that even a problem on any laptops?). That would be pretty easy if you have it.

Input lag is the exact reason I stepped down to the S64, which has fantastic PQ and a decent anti-glare filter that really helps in a bright room. I was fed up with the motion blur/ghosting on my previous LCD TV in gaming, so I wasn't going to settle for even more crap that would interfere with gaming, haha. I don't feel like I'm missing too much with the S64.

Be a nerd/geek and be open to the possibility of your expensive technology being ruined by tests. It's the best kind of worst feeling.

 

[Aithos]

First, I know that you already made your purchase, I'm going to post this anyway for anyone else who happens upon this thread and is looking for current information. In case you're curious, I used to sell TVs and HT equipment for a number of years and I'm a self-professed tech snob and audiophile.

My personal opinion is that in the 50" range (aside from the Pioneer Kuros that are no longer available) the best plasma's on the market are the Samsung 7000 series and the Panasonic GT and higher. Panasonics tend to be a little more expensive and have slightly better anti-glare and the Samsung tend to have the best calbration settings without paying someone to do it professionally.

For my money, the Samsung 51e7000 would be my recommendation. They game extraordinarily well and they are fully 3d with 120 frames per second. The black levels are better than anything except the VT line of Panasonic (at a significantly higher price point) and the picture quality is second to none. I have a Pioneer Elite Kuro and if I was buying a TV today I would get a Samsung, that's how much I like their screens. I've also done break-in periods with them and the calibration is very easy with some good settings (that can be found on AVS pretty easily).

Keep in mind that console games are also designed with the capabilities of the screen in mind, companies generally account for input lag in their testing and you won't notice it until you compare it to an LCD screen like when the Wii U launched. Rhythm games like Rock Band build in lag compensation so that video and audio match up regardless of the screen you're playing on.

Most plasma TVs will have between 20-30ms of lag even at the high end. My Pioneer Kuro FD-111 sits at like 30ms on Rock Band but I don't notice any issues with FPS games and I played semi-professional Counterstrike for PC. I am very prone to noticing lag and visual issues so trust me when I say that most of the major offerings from Samsung and Panasonic will be similar.

As for what you already got, the ST series Panasonic is a decent buy with a budget in mind. I think for a similar price you could have gotten a slightly better screen in the Samsung, but I think you still picked up a good set and shouldn't be disappointed in the quality. The only Panasonic screen I REALLY advise against is their budget U series, which are not made by Panasonic at all and are a step from being utter garbage.

Final Note: Make sure you turn down your settings and don't play on vivid at all and don't play on game (which reduces lag by turning off video processing) until you adjust the settings to match your TVs standard mode. Game settings are usually way too bright and oversaturated. That is bad for your eyes, looks awful and makes your screen MUCH more prone to image retention. Running a plasma on what we call "burn" settings is awful for the screen and Panasonic is more prone than Samsung to image retention in the first place.