51 Vote ‘Nuclear Option’ Is ‘Arrogant’ Power Grab Against the Founder’s Intent

highland145

Lifer
Oct 12, 2009
43,563
5,966
136
I don't like any politicians. I don't think they are in touch with reality or have our best interests in mind. And they talk out of both sides of their mouths....

http://www.breitbart.tv/obama-dems-...ogant-power-grab-against-the-founders-intent/

I'm not left bashing, in particular, because I'm sure the Repubs have done the same thing. Anyone with video/links to help back this up.

Do any of you may remember if the Repubs used the "option" or not back then?
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
The nuclear option is so shortsighted. Repubs were morons for even mentioning it years ago and Dems are fools for thinking the same.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Far as I remember they did not use it.

They did not - McCain and his gang of fourteen cut them off at the knees. No way to know whether or not it would have been used.

Arguably it would have been proper in that case, as advise and consent is a Constitutional requirement of the Senate and thus the filibuster was preventing the Senate from discharging its duties. It's the same for budget reconciliation. No matter how you feel about health care, it is not a Constitutional requirement of the Senate. But the division between budget and programs is increasingly blurred, so sooner or later the filibuster will die out.
 

Farang

Lifer
Jul 7, 2003
10,914
3
0
Far as I remember they did not use it.

They used reconciliation to pass the Bush tax cuts. Reconciliation is the issue these days. The nuclear option is a completely different tactic, raising it as an issue is meant to confuse people not familiar with Senate procedures.
 

RedChief

Senior member
Dec 20, 2004
533
0
81
They used reconciliation to pass the Bush tax cuts. Reconciliation is the issue these days. The nuclear option is a completely different tactic, raising it as an issue is meant to confuse people not familiar with Senate procedures.

Reconciliation is for budgeting which tax cuts fall under. Taking over a large portion of the economy is quite a bit different.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
They used reconciliation to pass the Bush tax cuts. Reconciliation is the issue these days. The nuclear option is a completely different tactic, raising it as an issue is meant to confuse people not familiar with Senate procedures.

But the justification for the nuclear option when it was threatened was the same as for budget reconciliation, that the filibuster was preventing the Senate from doing its Constitutional duty. Non-budgetary bills (assuming the House and Senate versions differ, which is usual) must be reconciled and the reconciled bill voted, and are still subject to filibuster.

If the Dems do this (and I think they will), they will probably use the excuse that this bill has important taxing and spending authority and is therefore a budget bill. That's never been done so blatantly, but the definition has been stretched in that direction so it's not totally, completely unprecedented.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Quite funny to see these hypocrites whining about it just a few years earlier and now want to use it. Deceitful bastards.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,164
0
0
Quite funny to see these hypocrites whining about it just a few years earlier and now want to use it. Deceitful bastards.

Quite funny to see the hypocrits who threatened to use it several years ago whining about it now. Deceitful bastards.

- wolf
 

RyanPaulShaffer

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2005
3,434
1
0
Quite funny to see these hypocrites whining about it just a few years earlier and now want to use it. Deceitful bastards.

Rush is playing clip after clip of Dems railing against "Republican power grabs by using the nuclear option" a few years ago. Biden, Billary, Reid, Chuck U. Schumer, Chris Dodd (Friend of Angelo), Diane Feinstein, Max Baucus, etc. It's just one after another. Hilarious stuff.
 

RyanPaulShaffer

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2005
3,434
1
0
Quite funny to see the hypocrits who threatened to use it several years ago whining about it now. Deceitful bastards.

- wolf

Hi, the Dems were the ones originally whining about the nuclear option being "the end of Democracy" who are now threatening to use it to pass "health care reform", which has nothing to do with the budget.

Thanks for playing though.

Biden's clip was classic. He said something to the effect of, "When we get back in power, we'll have the decency to never do such a preposterous thing." LOL! :awe:
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,164
0
0
They did not - McCain and his gang of fourteen cut them off at the knees. No way to know whether or not it would have been used.

Arguably it would have been proper in that case, as advise and consent is a Constitutional requirement of the Senate and thus the filibuster was preventing the Senate from discharging its duties. It's the same for budget reconciliation. No matter how you feel about health care, it is not a Constitutional requirement of the Senate. But the division between budget and programs is increasingly blurred, so sooner or later the filibuster will die out.

The nuclear option would have been appropriate? It would have jettisoned the fillibuster for all purposes, not just for purpose of those votes. Meaning right now you'd have the healthcare reform you loathe. That's why the repubs were bluffing when they said they'd use it then, and it's why the dems won't use it now.

Reconciliation is another matter, of course. Even if applicable and actually used in a given case, it still leaves the fillibuster in tact.

- wolf
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
Both parties are hypocrites about this.

When the Dems were filibustering, the Repub talking point was "straight up or down vote!" while the Dems were saving America. Dems claimed the nuclear option would be an outrage.

Now the Repubs filibuster, claim they're saving America and say a straight up or down vote isn't needed after all. Dems have lost all their outrage against going nuclear.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,164
0
0
Hi, the Dems were the ones originally whining about the nuclear option being "the end of Democracy" who are now threatening to use it to pass "health care reform", which has nothing to do with the budget.

Thanks for playing though.

Biden's clip was classic. He said something to the effect of, "When we get back in power, we'll have the decency to never do such a preposterous thing." LOL! :awe:

Wrong. The dems are not threatening to use the nuclear option, at least not that I've heard. There is a huge difference between the nuclear option and reconciliation. While FoxNews keeps referring to reconciliation as the "nuclear option" they are not even remotely close.

- wolf
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
Rush is playing clip after clip of Dems railing against "Republican power grabs by using the nuclear option" a few years ago. Biden, Billary, Reid, Chuck U. Schumer, Chris Dodd (Friend of Angelo), Diane Feinstein, Max Baucus, etc. It's just one after another. Hilarious stuff.

He is of course not playing clips of all the Republicans bleating "straight up or down vote!" at that time.

That would be admitting the Repubs are equally two-faced about the issue.
 

Turin39789

Lifer
Nov 21, 2000
12,219
8
81
It's the same story, the majority party wants to clear up the filibuster from locking up the legislative branch, the minority branch opposes. When they switch sides, they switch positions.

The real resolution is for one of the parties to man up while in the minority and suggest filibuster reform.
 

RyanPaulShaffer

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2005
3,434
1
0
Wrong. The dems are not threatening to use the nuclear option, at least not that I've heard. There is a huge difference between the nuclear option and reconciliation. While FoxNews keeps referring to reconciliation as the "nuclear option" they are not even remotely close.

- wolf

Ah...the "Faux News" deflection.

http://mediamatters.org/research/200908190017

Echoing Fox News' Bill Sammon and Sean Hannity, CNN hosts Anderson Cooper and Kiran Chetry both falsely compared Senate Democrats' potential use of the reconciliation process to pass health reform legislation to the "nuclear option." In fact, the term "nuclear option" was coined by then-Republican Sen. Trent Lott in 2005 to refer to a possible Republican attempt to change Senate filibuster rules, while reconciliation is already part of Senate procedure and Republicans have used it repeatedly in the past.
 

Farang

Lifer
Jul 7, 2003
10,914
3
0
Reconciliation is for budgeting which tax cuts fall under. Taking over a large portion of the economy is quite a bit different.

Actually they would be making budgetary adjustments to legsilation that (theoretically) has passed both houses.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
Show me the 60 vote requirement in the Constitution. Someone, please show me where it is. It's not nuclear option, its return to founders' intent. Strict constructionists should back it.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,164
0
0
Ah...the "Faux News" deflection.

http://mediamatters.org/research/200908190017

Echoing Fox News' Bill Sammon and Sean Hannity, CNN hosts Anderson Cooper and Kiran Chetry both falsely compared Senate Democrats' potential use of the reconciliation process to pass health reform legislation to the "nuclear option." In fact, the term "nuclear option" was coined by then-Republican Sen. Trent Lott in 2005 to refer to a possible Republican attempt to change Senate filibuster rules, while reconciliation is already part of Senate procedure and Republicans have used it repeatedly in the past.

It isn't a deflection. The "nuclear option" is a specific procedure that is entirely different from budget reconciliation, and the difference between the two is non-trivial. The "nuclear option" - which used to be called the "constitutional option" - is using a parlimentary procedure to declare the fillibuster unconstititional. That would then set a precedent whereby the fillibuster is, in effect, dead in perpetuity. In theory, it can be done any time, in any situation. It has never been done because there is a tacit understanding that doing so would wreak havoc. That's why it got named the "nuclear option."

Budget reconciliation is a recognized procedure, that has already been used, which allows a bypass of the fillibuster for a specific bill, but the requirements for a bill to be amenable to are relatively stringent, and it doesn't kill the fillibuster for all time and for all purposes.

Werepossum has a point in his above comments - which is that if you expand the scope of what sort of bill is subject to reconciliation to a great degree, you may in effect be killing the fillibuster for all time. If the dems are able to set such a precedent with reconcilition for this bill, then perhaps that could be the case. However, using a phrase that has historically applied to an entirely different procedure is just not accurate. It only confuses the issue.

- wolf
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
BTW, the reason Republicans did not use nuclear option is because Democrats agreed to not filibuster but for exceptional cases. So Republicans did use the treat of the nuclear option. Now, Democrats should do the same. Republicans have abused the filibuster to paralyze the governance of this country without taking any responsibility. If Republicans don't agree to stop filibustering everything then nuclear option should be used and used immediately.
 

Turin39789

Lifer
Nov 21, 2000
12,219
8
81
Show me the 60 vote requirement in the Constitution. Someone, please show me where it is. It's not nuclear option, its return to founders' intent. Strict constructionists should back it.

show me the minority party with the stones to do that.
 
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