$5B ethanol subsidy in jeopardy

Jul 10, 2007
12,050
3
0
but it likely won't pass?
why would they not end it immediately?

also, if they lose their subsidy, does this mean we'll get MTBE back?



http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43431407/ns/politics/

How to remove $5 billion from the federal deficit in one fell swoop? Eliminate the $5 billion-a-year subsidy given to oil refiners for blending ethanol into gasoline.

The Senate voted Thursday to do just that, and even though the amendment is attached to a bill that probably won’t pass, the 73-27 vote sends a message that many Democrats and Republicans are behind an idea supported by an odd coalition that ranges from Tea Partyers to the Sierra Club.

Thirty-three Republicans joined 40 Democrats in voting to eliminate the subsidy.

Provided in the form of tax credits, the subsidy gives 45 cents a gallon to refiners who use ethanol, a renewable fuel additive that comes mainly from corn in the U.S.

These tax breaks long have been supported as a way to reduce oil imports by politicians in both parties — emphatically so for many who run for president and look to woo the farm vote.

But a new emphasis on deficit reduction, particularly among Republicans aligned with Tea Party activists, has contributed to a shift in the political landscape.

Environmental groups like the Sierra Club argue that corn-based ethanol isn't any cleaner than gasoline because of all the fossil fuel used to farm corn. They instead want to see more renewable energy like solar and wind.

The measure will now be added to a bill renewing a federal economic development program. The prospects for the overall bill are uncertain, but Thursday's vote clearly endangers the ethanol tax credit, which would expire at the end of the year anyway, unless Congress renews it. The measure passed Thursday would end the tax credit immediately.

"The best way for ethanol to survive is to stand on its own two feet, without spending something we don't have to get something we're going to have anyway," said Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla.

The White House issued a statement saying it was against a full repeal of ethanol subsidies, indicating it could use its veto power if the amendment continued to advance in Congress.

"We need reforms and a smarter biofuels program, but simply cutting off support for the industry isn't the right approach," said Agriculture Secretary Tom Vilsack.




The Senate also voted 59-41 to reject a measure that would have eliminated a government program that supports the distribution of ethanol, providing some hope to a Farm-belt industry that is in danger of getting dinged by budget cutting efforts. The House had passed a similar measure earlier in the day, by a vote of 283-128, adding it to an agriculture spending bill.

The debate played out as the White House and congressional leaders continued to negotiate spending cuts to help reign in government red ink. The federal government, which borrows about 40 cents of every dollar it spends, has already hit the legal borrowing limit of $14.3 trillion.

Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner has warned Congress that the U.S. risks an unprecedented default on Treasury bonds if the borrowing limit isn't increased by Aug. 2. However, a growing number of lawmakers say they won't vote to increase the borrowing limit without substantial deficit reduction.

Many Republicans have ruled out tax increases, though some have said they would support ending narrowly-tailored tax breaks like the ethanol tax credit. The ethanol tax credit is part of a package of dozens of business and individual tax breaks that Congress usually renews each year. Thursday's vote could also spell trouble for some of the others.

Critics say ethanol subsidies are no longer needed for an industry that is already supported by a mandate from Congress that requires refiners to blend 36 billion gallons of biofuels into auto fuel by 2022. They say it drives up corn prices, mainly for animal feed.

"A tax break from ethanol is a gift to the oil companies and grain producers, a gift that actually harms American consumers and our environment," said Sen. Ben Cardin, D-Md.

Supporters of continued federal spending for ethanol argue it is a leading source of alternative fuel that helps reduce U.S. dependence on foreign oil.

Sen. Tom Harkin, D-Iowa, said there should be a transition period rather than an abrupt elimination of the tax credit.

"This is truly a homegrown industry, built on the investment and labor of many thousands of Americans, providing a product that helps us with one of our most pressing national issues: our dependency on imported oil," Harkin said.
 
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ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
8
0
ummm didn't it already pass??

And about time too. We need to stop using food to fuel our cars, especially when people are starving to death around the world.
 

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,696
1
0
I thought it didn't pass. Oh well, it's set to sunset next year IIRC and pushing to renew it isn't politically feasible (I'd think).

Bad technology, bad policy, bad economics. Take that 5B and put it into grass ethanol R&D.
 
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Wreckem

Diamond Member
Sep 23, 2006
9,459
987
126
Whats funny is even with all the subsidies alot of ethanol plants have gone tits up over the last several years.

Its time to end corn based ethanol, as well as ethanol and corn subsidies.
 

DominionSeraph

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2009
8,391
31
91
:thumbsup:

We should've put the money into nuclear and plug-in hybrids, not given it to oil companies so that they could compete for our food. But it's gone now.
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
86
91
Except now we will have to subsidize all those farmers who started growing corn...take away the subsidies and the market price for corn is going to drop as demand for corn based ethanol drops.

All those farmer are going to have to buy new farm equipment to go back to growing something else.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
:thumbsup:

We should've put the money into nuclear and plug-in hybrids, not given it to oil companies so that they could compete for our food. But it's gone now.

Something we agree on. If we were really lucky they would be diesel hybrids.
 

wuliheron

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2011
3,536
0
0
Except now we will have to subsidize all those farmers who started growing corn...take away the subsidies and the market price for corn is going to drop as demand for corn based ethanol drops.

All those farmer are going to have to buy new farm equipment to go back to growing something else.

Who the hell are "all those farmers"? The small farmer is practically nonexistent. What you are really talking about is subsidizing the corporations that have driven all the small farmers out of business.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
$5B ethanol subsidy in jeopardy

It's not going anywhere.

Corn hit a high of $7.99 a bushel and they like it that way just like oil and gas.


http://www.businessweek.com/news/20...ar-high-as-usda-slashes-supply-estimates.html

Corn Climbs to Three-Year High as USDA Slashes Supply Estimates



U.S. stockpiles before the start of the 2012 harvest may fall to 695 million bushels, the lowest since 1996, even as farmers collect a record crop, the USDA said. World inventories are projected to drop next year to the lowest since 2004. Prices have more than doubled in the past year as global output trailed gains in demand for livestock feed and biofuels.

The rally is boosting costs for meat producers including Tyson Foods Inc. and ethanol makers such as Poet LLC.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Except now we will have to subsidize all those farmers who started growing corn...take away the subsidies and the market price for corn is going to drop as demand for corn based ethanol drops.

All those farmer are going to have to buy new farm equipment to go back to growing something else.
This is just another facet of Obama's plan to control the economy. He chooses the winners and losers in place of the market. Pulling $5 billion in subsidy from refiners will cause them to use less ethanol and, therefore, more oil. That will in turn drive up the price of oil, making the rest of his energy agenda easier to fulfill. Meanwhile, the farms built around the supposed booming ethanol market will take a huge hit when demand for their product dramatically decreases overnight. Obama will strongly suggest what they should grow instead using a new subsidy. Rinse and repeat. It's happening in every corner of the country at this point, creating huge uncertainty and people simply aren't willing to gamble when they could lose big simply on the whim of a politician with no skin in the game.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,145
10
81
Who the hell are "all those farmers"? The small farmer is practically nonexistent. What you are really talking about is subsidizing the corporations that have driven all the small farmers out of business.

not true.

i know many family farms. all have around 90 acres.

but yes this will hurt them they have been making a killing (well compared to the past few years) on corn
 

Schadenfroh

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2003
38,416
4
0
Hasn't that been found to be a bad carcinogen?

CA got rid of it.

Nope, not a carcinogen as far as we know. Seems that it is only harmful if you are exposed to high doses of it. Many places also banned harmless "mercury" in vaccines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MTBE#Health_risks
The IARC, a cancer research agency of the World Health Organization, maintains MTBE is not classifiable as a human carcinogen.
...
MTBE is not classified as a human carcinogen at low exposure levels by the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC).

http://www.epa.gov/mtbe/water.htm
The majority of the human health-related research conducted to date on MTBE has focused on effects associated with the inhalation of the chemical.

The drinking water advisory document indicates that there is little likelihood that MTBE in drinking water will cause adverse health effects at concentrations between 20 and 40 ppb or below.
...
Current data on MTBE levels in ground and surface waters indicate widespread and numerous detections at low levels of MTBE, with a more limited number of detections at higher levels (only about 1 percent of concentrations are more than 20 parts per billion (ppb)

When MTBE is detected, the levels are typically below 20 ppb which is lower than EPA?s Drinking Water Advisory.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
23,652
10,515
136
This is just another facet of Obama's plan to control the economy. He chooses the winners and losers in place of the market. Pulling $5 billion in subsidy from refiners will cause them to use less ethanol and, therefore, more oil. That will in turn drive up the price of oil, making the rest of his energy agenda easier to fulfill. Meanwhile, the farms built around the supposed booming ethanol market will take a huge hit when demand for their product dramatically decreases overnight. Obama will strongly suggest what they should grow instead using a new subsidy. Rinse and repeat. It's happening in every corner of the country at this point, creating huge uncertainty and people simply aren't willing to gamble when they could lose big simply on the whim of a politician with no skin in the game.

Nice fallacy since President Obama has nothing to do with this legislative effort.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
Except now we will have to subsidize all those farmers who started growing corn...take away the subsidies and the market price for corn is going to drop as demand for corn based ethanol drops.

All those farmer are going to have to buy new farm equipment to go back to growing something else.

You mean small farmers like Cargill and Archer Daniels Midland?
 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
21,733
565
126
It doesn't make logical sense to keep extending a stupid idea that failed just because a few businesses have come to rely on the revenue it generates. Therefore, I expect our government to do just that.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
Nope, not a carcinogen as far as we know. Seems that it is only harmful if you are exposed to high doses of it. Many places also banned harmless "mercury" in vaccines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MTBE#Health_risks


http://www.epa.gov/mtbe/water.htm

That's valid info, but I also found (written several years ago):

As a result of the Clean Air Act Amendments of 1990 (CAAA90), the year-round use of reformulated gasoline (RFG) has been required in cities with the worst smog problems since 1995 (Figure 1).One of the requirements of RFG specified by CAAA90 is a 2-percent oxygen requirement, which is met by blending “oxygenates,” [1] including methyl tertiary butyl ether (MTBE) and ethanol, into the gasoline.MTBE is the oxygenate used in almost all RFG outside of the Midwest. Ethanol is currently used in the Midwest as an oxygenate in RFG and as an octane booster and volume extender in conventional gasoline.

Several years ago, MTBE was detected in water supplies scattered throughout the country, but predominantly in areas using RFG.MTBE from RFG was apparently making its way through leaking pipelines and underground storage tanks into ground water.The discovery of MTBE in ground water and concerns for water quality touched off a debate about the use of MTBE in gasoline, and subsequently the oxygen requirement itself.

http://www.eia.gov/oiaf/servicerpt/mtbeban/

From your Wiki link:

The EPA currently lists methyl tertiary butyl ether (MTBE) as a candidate for a maximum contaminant level (MCL) in drinking water.

Recent state laws have been passed to ban MTBE in certain areas. California and New York, which together accounted for 40% of U.S. MTBE consumption, banned the chemical starting January 1, 2004, and as of September 2005, twenty-five states had signed legislation banning MTBE.
 

alphatarget1

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2001
5,710
0
76
Once again, BHO is on the wrong side of policy again. The midwest shouldn't get to screw the rest of the nation with corn ethanol.
 

manimal

Lifer
Mar 30, 2007
13,560
8
0
I hope Grover Norquist has a coronary over this one!!!!


Lets tackle one subsidy at time! I wish tax exemptions in general are tackled like this one fight at a time.
 
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