6.0GHz in 2004 for the Masses

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ProviaFan

Lifer
Mar 17, 2001
14,993
1
0
Originally posted by: Pink0
I boot my machine maybe 2-3 times a day, each taking about 30-45 seconds. I can easily wait that time.
Yeah but can the guy who wants to use it as an entertainment appliance like a VCR or stereo? No. They have to be instant on. Then there's working with music and video and sometimes even just recording the video. Sorry, HDD= huge bottleneck.
Pink0, I think your point is lost on the gamers around here who only use their computers for gaming and internet browsing. Perhaps if we stuck them on my aforementioned Celeron system with the deathly slow hard drive, and gave them some real work to do, then maybe they'd see the light.
 

Sunner

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
11,641
0
76
Originally posted by: jliechty
Originally posted by: Pink0
I boot my machine maybe 2-3 times a day, each taking about 30-45 seconds. I can easily wait that time.
Yeah but can the guy who wants to use it as an entertainment appliance like a VCR or stereo? No. They have to be instant on. Then there's working with music and video and sometimes even just recording the video. Sorry, HDD= huge bottleneck.
Pink0, I think your point is lost on the gamers around here who only use their computers for gaming and internet browsing. Perhaps if we stuck them on my aforementioned Celeron system with the deathly slow hard drive, and gave them some real work to do, then maybe they'd see the light.

Sounds fair enough, gamers will mostly think that HD's aren't a bottleneck, but on the other hand Pinky seems extremely hung up on the HD as a bottleneck.
Sochan gave some good examples, but really, you don't have to get into stuff such as scientific simulations, etc to find tasks where the HD is not the bottleneck.
In my day to day work I compile programs quite often, which is another example of when the HD isn't a bottleneck.

With a 6 GHz CPU I'd surely notice quite the drop in compile times.
There are many other examples as well.

And as Sochan said, by far the biggest bottleneck in most situations is the person sitting in front of the keyboard.
 

Sohcan

Platinum Member
Oct 10, 1999
2,127
0
0
Pink0, please reread my previous post. You are naming valid I/O intensive applications that depend on hard drive access times and throughput, but this does not make all workloads universally I/O bound. Compression/decompression, compiling and interpretation, rendering, VLSI/FPGA place and routing, gaming, and physics/chemistry simulations are just a few workloads that are largely CPU bound. Just as an example, I used to do undergrad research with a high-energy physics group...the simulations of high-energy particle collisions that I used to run would take 2-3 days (on a 1 GHz P3) and write around 600MB of data, amounting to less than one I/O per second. This is an entirely CPU bound workload that showed a direct relationship between performance and clockspeed.

CPU and I/O bound workloads are both important, and it is a shame that I/O is fundamentally limited by the mechanical nature of hard drives, which only improve in latency by 5% a year vs. 55% a year for CPU performance. But Intel and other MPU manufacturers do not design MPUs solely for completely I/O bound workloads, or for desktop PC applications...these MPUs are also used in high-performance workstation and server computing workloads that would love to see higher performing MPUs. Even traditionally I/O intensive uses such as transactional databases and web servers benefit a lot from faster MPUs; Itanium 2's integer performance was tailored to TPC-C performance.

Again, in the grand scheme of things, for the majority of computer users their performance demands trail well behind state-of-the-art CPU and I/O speed; for the rest there are just as many CPU bound workloads as there are I/O bound.
 

KF

Golden Member
Dec 3, 1999
1,371
0
0
Getting back to 6GHz processors, no new application needs to be found that requires that speed. All that is needed are updated versions of the old ones. They will automatically be slower, and take more memory. Eventually, they will be so slow, and so bloated, people with 500MHz computers will give up and have to upgrade. That has been the reason people have had to upgrade before, and that will continue to be the case.

Programmers trade speed and size for reduced programming time. That's they reason a program that did about the same thing on a 16Mhz 386SX with 2M of memory runs about as fast as on a 1400MHz Athlon with 512M of memory. Programmers have gotten a little behind, it is true. It is an outrage that a 700MHz computer performs satisfactorily when 2.5GHz is readily available. But programmers will catch up. The same goes for memory. There is no program a programmer can't bloat up to take all of available memory.

To answer others proposals for required speed. Yes there are applications that a faster processor will help. But as a percentage of computers that run them, they are neglegible. Therefore the demand side is not significant, and processor speed is not a response to that incredibly tiny demand. Processor speed is a marketing tool being manipulated by Intel and AMD. That is really the only reason for the current speeds and the reason why demand has been so elastic (sales are hurting). Intel never had any intention of selling a near top-end processor for under $200.

After common, cheap computers become fast enough, and you can hardly find a computer that won't do it satisfactorily, then use of applications like DVD encoding will pick up a slightly. As it is, no one cares. Even the number of people who make MP3s is not a large percentage, and that is very simple for today's computers. People just are not very interested in it. It may be a little more interesting than making birthday cards on your printer, but not much.


 

Nemesis77

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2001
7,329
0
0
Originally posted by: Pink0
I boot my machine maybe 2-3 times a day, each taking about 30-45 seconds. I can easily wait that time.

Yeah but can the guy who wants to use it as an entertainment appliance like a VCR or stereo? No. They have to be instant on. Then there's working with music and video and sometimes even just recording the video. Sorry, HDD= huge bottleneck.

Computer is a computer, not a VCR. If sone company decides to build a computer that is like an enternainment-appliance, they will design it in such way that it minimizes the boot-up time. There has been mp3 car-stereous that run Linux. There are pieces of stereo-equipment mp3-players than run Linux. Yet those products don't seem to suffer from slow boot-up.

Computers are not meant to be enternainment-appliances. If someone builds that kind of machine, they will design it in such way that it boots faster (by putting the OS in Flash-RAM for example).
 

Nemesis77

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2001
7,329
0
0
Originally posted by: jliechty
Originally posted by: Pink0
I boot my machine maybe 2-3 times a day, each taking about 30-45 seconds. I can easily wait that time.
Yeah but can the guy who wants to use it as an entertainment appliance like a VCR or stereo? No. They have to be instant on. Then there's working with music and video and sometimes even just recording the video. Sorry, HDD= huge bottleneck.
Pink0, I think your point is lost on the gamers around here who only use their computers for gaming and internet browsing. Perhaps if we stuck them on my aforementioned Celeron system with the deathly slow hard drive, and gave them some real work to do, then maybe they'd see the light.

Arrogance wont get you far in life.
 

randomlinh

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
20,853
2
0
linh.wordpress.com
yes, the HD is a big bottleneck for some, but you know what i want to see? the floppy completely phased out and replaced w/ usb 1.1/2.0 front ports that are bootable (yes, i know some mobo's can do this already.. i want them all to!)... and have those keychain usb things come down significantly in cost. Or something along these lines. The floppy must die
 

Nemesis77

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2001
7,329
0
0
Originally posted by: lnguyen
yes, the HD is a big bottleneck for some, but you know what i want to see? the floppy completely phased out and replaced w/ usb 1.1/2.0 front ports that are bootable (yes, i know some mobo's can do this already.. i want them all to!)... and have those keychain usb things come down significantly in cost. Or something along these lines. The floppy must die

HD is a bottleneck for all, but it manifests itself only during certain times. For ordinary desktop-user, loading and installing software and swapping to HD are the most common times it manifests itself. Installing of software is so rare in the end that it doesn't really matter in grand scheme of things. Swapping can be limited by adding more RAM. application startup-time can be annoying, but once the app is running, it doesn't really matter.

Now, on servers it can be more critical. For example fileservers and databases. But those usually have RAID-arrays that reduce the severity of the problem.
 

BaboonGuy

Diamond Member
Aug 24, 2002
4,125
0
0
6 GHz will be needed, software developers will find more and more ways to stress the system.

I wanna see somebody use 1 GB RAM sticks and get like 5 GB of RAM. Then forgo the HD and just use the RAM as the HD, I wonder how fast that would go.. or if it's even possible.

BTW, what do those super computers run off? 15,000 RPM SCSI drives?
 

Nemesis77

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2001
7,329
0
0
Originally posted by: BaboonGuy
6 GHz will be needed, software developers will find more and more ways to stress the system.

I wanna see somebody use 1 GB RAM sticks and get like 5 GB of RAM. Then forgo the HD and just use the RAM as the HD, I wonder how fast that would go.. or if it's even possible.

Yes it is possible. It's known as ramdrive. However, you will lose all the data if you power down.

BTW, what do those super computers run off? 15,000 RPM SCSI drives?

Solid-state disks. I remember one SGI(or was it Cray?) machine that had about 120GB/sec of bandwith to it's solid-state HD.
 

Sunner

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
11,641
0
76
Originally posted by: Nemesis77
Originally posted by: BaboonGuy
6 GHz will be needed, software developers will find more and more ways to stress the system.

I wanna see somebody use 1 GB RAM sticks and get like 5 GB of RAM. Then forgo the HD and just use the RAM as the HD, I wonder how fast that would go.. or if it's even possible.

Yes it is possible. It's known as ramdrive. However, you will lose all the data if you power down.

BTW, what do those super computers run off? 15,000 RPM SCSI drives?

Solid-state disks. I remember one SGI(or was it Cray?) machine that had about 120GB/sec of bandwith to it's solid-state HD.

It was a cray disk, and it was 80 GB/sec(on paper that is, I've yet to see any real world applications of this technology).
 

ProviaFan

Lifer
Mar 17, 2001
14,993
1
0
Originally posted by: Nemesis77
Originally posted by: BaboonGuy
6 GHz will be needed, software developers will find more and more ways to stress the system.

I wanna see somebody use 1 GB RAM sticks and get like 5 GB of RAM. Then forgo the HD and just use the RAM as the HD, I wonder how fast that would go.. or if it's even possible.

Yes it is possible. It's known as ramdrive. However, you will lose all the data if you power down.
BTW, what do those super computers run off? 15,000 RPM SCSI drives?
Solid-state disks. I remember one SGI(or was it Cray?) machine that had about 120GB/sec of bandwith to it's solid-state HD.
It is possible to buy solid state drives with even an IDE interface, however, IIRC, they are very expensive - something like $20K for an 18GB drive. As an added complication, they are affliced with the same problem that afflicts the lowly CompactFlash card; after being written to a certain amount of times, they finally fail. Therefore, a tape drive or DVD+RW would make a good investment in addition to a solid state drive.

PS: Bitmicro is a company that makes solid state drives.
 

Pink0

Senior member
Oct 10, 2002
449
0
0
It is possible to buy solid state drives with even an IDE interface, however, IIRC, they are very expensive - something like $20K for an 18GB drive. As an added complication, they are affliced with the same problem that afflicts the lowly CompactFlash card; after being written to a certain amount of times, they finally fail. Therefore, a tape drive or DVD+RW would make a good investment in addition to a solid state drive.

Yes, well, even hard drives have a lifespan of so many operational hours or so many stop/starts. It's really no different.
 

FishTankX

Platinum Member
Oct 6, 2001
2,738
0
0
To pink 0, there are certian ways to get around slow boot times of Stereo's or PVR's. Micron once demonstrated a flash based DIMM (I.E. Solid state speed, plugged into a normal DDR slot) that could get windows 98 to boot in 6 seconds from power on. The real future is backing up commonly used, small files in Flash (like DLL's, drivers and the like) in a sort of flash DIMM (Micron has demonstrated that you can get flash to go *fast*). As for audio workloads, I understand that in 20 channel 24/96 recording it can get up to it can get up to several hundred I/Os per second. Even if each channel only takes up 288 KBytes per second (I've done this on a calculator. 96KHZ times 3 bytes (24 bits) equals 288KBs.) the I/O load and latency sensitivity is amazing.

There *are* sollutions for that. For instance, 4 Cheetah 15K.3's in RAID0 on a 64bit/33MHZ PCI slot with 128MB/s of cache. Stuff like that is *made* for your profession. For people with purely I/O intensive loads, there is SCSI RAID. There are 10,000RPM HDD's that go cheap, and decently priced RAID controllers. For people like you, it's an acceptable sollution, if you're willing to pay the price. That's the way you get around the I/O bottle neck. You can't make IDE spin *any* faster because the noise would drive grandma mad and the heat would require active cooling for the first time in consumer storage. It's not a sollution. SCSI RAID is the sollution. And for people like you ,there are SCSI RAID arrays.

For people like grandma, there will be Flash DIMMs. No waiting, Ma! As lythography gets better, so will the capacity of such Flash DIMMs, which micron is working on as we speak. You could even get them to work with normal motherboards. And if you think that Flash's bandwidth stinks, may I remind everyone that bootup uses alot of small files, and thus I/Os per second (Which flash schools HD's over)

And may I remind everyone, that as lithography gets more and more powerful, we will eventually be able to cache a 20 channel 24/96 recording project into RAM, and it's oversampling temp file? Remember how not *that* long ago we barley had 2 megs of RAM in machines, and now we have 2000 in the most powerful workstations? Soon a gigabyte of RAM will become standard as the newest microsoft OS's soak up all the RAM. Soon, very soon, like maybe in the next 10 years, computers will be able to cache entire symphonies of multiple channel 32 bit 192KHZ audio in their memory. And remix them down to 24/96KHZ with time and memory to spare. After all, computer memory progresses a hell of alot faster than Audio Demands do. As computers march on, some tasks become quaint, even inconsequential. People used to make coffee over the recalculation of excel spreadsheets. Now they run in the blink of an eye.

Intel with it's 6GHZ CPU is helping us to go farther into the realm of AI, voice recognition, etc... making new things possible. how would you like your computer to greet you in the morning when you wake up? Cheer ya up when you're feeling down, with it's webcam eye peering at you, trying to figure out what's wrong and how to make you feel better? That's gonna be possible with a few billion transistors and 10+ GHZ.

Storage isn't going to be the bottle neck of the future. Memory bandwidth/latency is. Have you seen the incredible rate at which Caches have outpaced even the fastest of RAMs? PC2700 isn't even sufficent to stasify the pentium4 anymore (It eats up 1MB/s per MHZ.). The gap between memory and CPU has been *increasing*, not decreasing. RAMBUS may have helped to solve that, but they were ahead of their time, had bad ethics, and screwed up a good technology . Not only that, but RAM also has to be an I/O cache. Eventually it might get to the point where we have to stick multiple hundreds of megabytes of cache on the northbridge or make a dedicated path for cache on the motherbard, like the Pentium days. And that, my friends, is where the bottleneck for CPU growth lies. I imagine soon, some time in the future, Intel might stick a 128MB 64 bit octopumped yellowstone 10GB/s RAMBUS Cache on the mobo. Maybe 128 bit pathway, Octo pumped, etc.. just to keep the CPU from starving for data. It's gonna be awfully tough pushing all the 3d data around for face emoution recognition type tasks, and there's no way RAM could handle the load. Those types of applications require huge amounts of streaming bandwidth. Bandwidth that no RAM save maybe advanced forms of RDRAM and multiplie channel DDR-II will handle. And that'll be expensive. There has to be a way to stop the huge gap between CPU and RAM. And I believe the answer lies on offboard cache like the Apple's use.

Edit:288 KB/s, not 288Kb/s.
 

ProviaFan

Lifer
Mar 17, 2001
14,993
1
0
Originally posted by: BD231
Originally posted by: bjc112
Originally posted by: MaxDSP
Originally posted by: ElFenix
need much faster ram, but ram will always be a bottleneck
wouldnt the hard drive be the biggest bottleneck?
By far,

SCSI needs to become a cheaper standard...
SCSI is to loud and to hot.
If you need SCSI-level performance, you must put up with SCSI-level heat. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the ki...er...just use IDE.
Solid state drives will change that, but they will be a while in coming. BTW, advances are being made in the heat and noise production of SCSI equipment; Seagate's latest generation 15kRPM cheatah drive is reportedly quieter and cooler than the previous generation.
 

Howard

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
47,989
10
81
I had this thing all typed up about how you couldn't get 2 gigs a sec with current transfer subsystems, but then I just remembered 2GB/s FC switches have been out for some time now.
 

BD231

Lifer
Feb 26, 2001
10,568
138
106
Originally posted by: Howard
SCSI is to loud and to hot.
Sometimes, but please don't make generalizations like this.

IDE is too loud and too hot, too.

Very true, I've used SCSI before though and the spindle noise made at even just 10,000rpm is unbareable if your computer is sitting right next to you(I had an 18gig maxtor, latest modle). I love SCSI performance but it's just not a good option for normal home computer use.
 

Sunner

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
11,641
0
76
Originally posted by: BD231
Originally posted by: Howard
SCSI is to loud and to hot.
Sometimes, but please don't make generalizations like this.

IDE is too loud and too hot, too.

Very true, I've used SCSI before though and the spindle noise made at even just 10,000rpm is unbareable if your computer is sitting right next to you(I had an 18gig maxtor, latest modle). I love SCSI performance but it's just not a good option for normal home computer use.

Have a look at Storagereview, and look at their reviews of Seagate's Cheetah 15K.3 and 10K.6, both drives are very quiet, more so than many IDE drives in fact.
 

Pink0

Senior member
Oct 10, 2002
449
0
0
Fishtank, when you talk about the various methods that you can get around the slow boot times for PVRs and other living room appliances which is where the home PC is going what you are basically doing is supporting my point. By saying that you can use flash cards or whatever to boot up and then the hard drive from then on what you're describing is a way to bypass the bottleneck and thus admitting that the hard drive is the bottleneck in this situation.
 

KF

Golden Member
Dec 3, 1999
1,371
0
0
I'm not sure what the arguing is about. In different situations any one of the things mentioned can be the bottleneck. If you alter the way the situation is handled, something else becomes the bottleneck.

The way programming is done, first they decide whether it is fast enough already. If so, nothing is done. (Similarly for size.) That is why programs are slow and bloated. It is good enough as it is. If the program, or a part of it, needs to be faster, they break it down further and look for where most of the time is spent. They optimize those parts first (or find a completely different way to do it.) If 99.99% of computer users only spend 1% of their time accessing the HD, there is no point in using resources to make HD access faster.

If HD access is a problem, and you have to use HDs, there is huge industry to remedy the situation (as has been mentioned). You can get access times very low for practically any quantity of data, if you want to spend the money. Prices of the component HDs hardly matters in this industry, so the drives are expensive.

It is not completely impractical to sidestep the HD access problem entirely. Buy enough ram. You may need a special, expensive mobo. I have seen accounts of people who do this. They say they load their programs in the morning, and never have to access the HD the rest of the day. (Of course they do access the HD to save their work, and that can be a background task.) A few thousand dollars can buy a lot of memory.

Take Windows bootup time as an example. It could be made faster. There is not much demand for it, so there isn't much going to be done about it. There is no reason it could not be done in the amount of time it takes a HD to deliver the quantity of data. At 50 MB/s, it could take 2 seconds to load 100 MB if the Windows OS is that large. It takes longer because of the way Windows is designed. Windows is assembled from myriad pieces on the fly every time it boots. For kicks, generate a log file (BOOTLOG.INI). This is what Windows does every time it loads. If you have never seen it, you will gasp.

Take DVD encoding. Video does not have to be compressed. If it isn't, no processor time is used to compress it or decompress it. Then the processor speed becomes irrelevant. Audio CDs, for instance were not compressed. For a few years HD compression was popular. MS even included it in Windows. Now it is barely remembered.

Take those benchmarks they run on business apps. Most of the time is spent running the parts that are not optimized for speed. They don't optimize those parts because they have so little effect on the end users effective speed. If they did optimize those parts, you could easily get gains that dwarf the difference between a low end processor and a high end in the benchmarks. Yes those benchmarks do show the difference in effective processor speed (among other things), but that difference is in practice irrelevant.

For several years processors (till the P4) have been optimized to be independent of memory speed. As a result memory speed had a tiny effect on program run time. That effect comes when there is cache miss, and that rate is designed to be small. Now the P4 has a large penalty for a cache miss, and memory speed has a large effect. As a side effect of the faster memory required by the P4, huge data sets (which don't fit in the cache) can be handled faster. Even so, if you arrange the working set to stay in the cache, the P4 will do its work much faster than otherwise. It is because of poor programming that memory speed is so significant to the processor.

If photoshop, or whatever, is disproportionately slow with files at the 400M size (and you have the recommended amount of memory), it either is not designed for files that size, or the programmers have not done their job well.
 

Pink0

Senior member
Oct 10, 2002
449
0
0
If photoshop, or whatever, is disproportionately slow with files at the 400M size (and you have the recommended amount of memory), it either is not designed for files that size, or the programmers have not done their job well.

OMFG. This is barely worth responding to. Yeah, it's photoshop's fault that a hard drive can't transfer 400 megs of data to ram in under 20 seconds and then re-write it uncompressed as 900 megs to a scratch file in less than another 50 seconds. I guess if the programmers knew what they were doing then photoshop would already know all of the pixels of the photo without the need to read it from the hard drive. Yeah, I guess if you have a fast enough processor and ram you can work with compressed photos even in many, many, layers without using an uncompressed scratch but we're talking like 10ghz here. That would be working around the system's bottleneck though: The hard drive. Even if you did that though you'd still have to read the 400 meg file to ram which would take a while because the hard drive is the bottleneck.
 
Oct 16, 1999
10,490
4
0
Some of you 'tards need to realize that frames per second is not the only performance measurement of a computer. Will a slow hard drive affect fps? No. Will it affect nearly ebvery other aspect of system performance? Yes.
 
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