$600-a-month Volvo subscription...don't knock it til you read the details

[zinfamous]

You don't fit into this particular picture. You bought used and not new, not to mention the vehicle you are referencing has an MSRP of nearly half the one in this article. A new Mazda 3 lease is like $200 a month. But that part still plays into your monthly payments for life scenario. The conversation on this topic should be centered on this new subscription model vs typical leasing but people are taking it to the typical leasing makes no financial sense route.

My actual point (beyond my own personal opinions about real human needs) is that you are still paying $7500 per year for a car with an MSRP of $35k, and will at the very least, be paying $15k after two years into this, and essentially for the rest of your life, to turn over a car that is worth exactly that ($15k) and well, maybe less, after the first 3 or so years.

It is ridiculous loss of value and horribly stupid. Just buy the fucking car and use it until you extract actual value out of it. If the unit is supposedly worth $35k, then don't you think you deserve to get $35k worth of it, over 10-20 years...rather than pay an adjusted ....$60k-80k yearly actual cost of owning this actually very good car for only two years of its life?

It's absurd. I have no problem with luxury cars or ridiculously bonkers sports cars if that is your thing: just people doing abjectly stupid things with their money and machines.

 

[heymrdj]

My actual point (beyond my own personal opinions about real human needs) is that you are still paying $7500 per year for a car with an MSRP of $35k, and will at the very least, be paying $15k after two years into this, and essentially for the rest of your life, to turn over a car that is worth exactly that ($15k) and well, maybe less, after the first 3 or so years.

It is ridiculous loss of value and horribly stupid. Just buy the fucking car and use it until you extract actual value out of it. If the unit is supposedly worth $35k, then don't you think you deserve to get $35k worth of it, over 10-20 years...rather than pay an adjusted ....$60k-80k yearly actual cost of owning this actually very good car for only two years of its life?

It's absurd. I have no problem with luxury cars or ridiculously bonkers sports cars if that is your thing: just people doing abjectly stupid things with their money and machines.

I think two years is a bit fast, but 10-20 years? That tells me you think of the car as an appliance, and this conversation isn’t for you or about you. There’s no value to a car that old besides no payments. It’s not reliable (unless you don’t drive, I’d have about 350K in 10 years), and whatever tech is out there will be well missed. There’s an entire forum thread for your model/generation of car just to get all the third party parts and pieces needed just to get some poor attempt at a Bluetooth connection working that doesn’t require a 30 pin iPod connector lol.

 

[rstrohkirch]

My actual point (beyond my own personal opinions about real human needs) is that you are still paying $7500 per year for a car with an MSRP of $35k, and will at the very least, be paying $15k after two years into this, and essentially for the rest of your life, to turn over a car that is worth exactly that ($15k) and well, maybe less, after the first 3 or so years.

You're not reading the details right. The $600 price quoted may not be obtainable by everybody. Second, that $600 price isn't on the base MSRP 35k model. The packages/options included on it turn it into a $40k vehicle. Finally, it includes insurance and all wear and tear parts which is probably $80-120 a month for most people. So it's $500 a month on a $40k vehicle.

It is ridiculous loss of value and horribly stupid. Just buy the fucking car and use it until you extract actual value out of it. If the unit is supposedly worth $35k, then don't you think you deserve to get $35k worth of it, over 10-20 years...rather than pay an adjusted ....$60k-80k yearly actual cost of owning this actually very good car for only two years of its life?

There is no adjusted value as you won't have the vehicle more than 1 to 2 years. You will be off on another brand new vehicle by year 2 at the latest.

It's absurd. I have no problem with luxury cars or ridiculously bonkers sports cars if that is your thing: just people doing abjectly stupid things with their money and machines.

I'm not really interested in discussing whether or not it makes financial sense to lease vehicles. I really only cared about the idea of a subscription package and allowing use of multiple vehicles.

 

[sontakke]

Started seeing ads for this on iPhone news; "you don't buy your music any more; why should you buy your car?" is the tag line!

 

[mizzou]

My actual point (beyond my own personal opinions about real human needs) is that you are still paying $7500 per year for a car with an MSRP of $35k, and will at the very least, be paying $15k after two years into this, and essentially for the rest of your life, to turn over a car that is worth exactly that ($15k) and well, maybe less, after the first 3 or so years.

It is ridiculous loss of value and horribly stupid. Just buy the fucking car and use it until you extract actual value out of it. If the unit is supposedly worth $35k, then don't you think you deserve to get $35k worth of it, over 10-20 years...rather than pay an adjusted ....$60k-80k yearly actual cost of owning this actually very good car for only two years of its life?

It's absurd. I have no problem with luxury cars or ridiculously bonkers sports cars if that is your thing: just people doing abjectly stupid things with their money and machines.

It's apples to oranges IMO. You are comparing a logical and financially sound decision to a decision where someone just wants a perpetual new car smell.

I do think it's important to argue that it is not a sound financial decision though, if people are saying "Hey, this $600/month is a great deal!" Because it's NOT a great deal like you say. It sounds possibly better then a lease, but long term it's terribly expensive.

My standpoint on buying cars....if you can't pay it in full cash you can't afford it.

 

[zinfamous]

It's apples to oranges IMO. You are comparing a logical and financially sound decision to a decision where someone just wants a perpetual new car smell.

I do think it's important to argue that it is not a sound financial decision though, if people are saying "Hey, this $600/month is a great deal!" Because it's NOT a great deal like you say. It sounds possibly better then a lease, but long term it's terribly expensive.

My standpoint on buying cars....if you can't pay it in full cash you can't afford it.

Oh yes, I totally agree. But still, I'm arguing against one specific point, made earlier that this is cheaper than leasing the car, for whatever time period. The fact that you have the car for such a limited time--two years--and are paying those monthlies over that time, wherein the car is then re-sold, re-leased, for another similar price, the car has extracted a significant amount more of its value out of people, over that time.

Yes, this subscription offers more perks, which isn't that bad, really. But it's still very similar to the cell-phone-rental-on contract scheme where after ~2 years, you've paid some 30% or more above the actual cost of that phone, because you are locked on to some exorbitant plan.

I don't think that leasing is inherently a bad idea, there is some sense to the "You lease German/European, you buy Japanese" or however that goes.

 

[Kaido]

I do think it's important to argue that it is not a sound financial decision though, if people are saying "Hey, this $600/month is a great deal!" Because it's NOT a great deal like you say. It sounds possibly better then a lease, but long term it's terribly expensive.

I could get like...three Kia Souls on lease for one Volvo, hahaha.

I'd like to do a subscription service with Kia. $99/mo for the car, maintenance, and insurance

 

[frozentundra123456]

Sounds like some very cherry picked models or maybe somewhere that really likes Honda sedans. LX models here 2014 used 36K miles Very Good condition are 9300 trade in or 10.5 private party. My Ford Fiesta lease was a very good example of coming out ahead on a lease. 2014 model, 31K of 36K used on it, 7000 trade in value. Lease buyout was about 11.5K. It was a 18.9K car, 0 down, 215month. I dropped off the keys and walked away. My work mate however, who purchased his Focus in 2014, is still upside down in his purchase. It’s only worth 5K with 40K miles on it. Wants to get rid of it but would eat several thousand in negative.

In what way did you "come out ahead"? Was it a 3 year lease? If so you paid 7700 dollars (plus monthly tax), and ended up with nothing at the end. With a purchase, even if one is upside down for one or two or even 3 years, *eventually* you will be ahead and ultimately own the car. With a lease/turn in, you are perpetually making a car payment. Now leasing does have advantages, low down payment, having a new, reliable car all the time, etc. but financially, one rarely if ever comes out ahead. In fact, the only way I can think of that one would come out ahead is if the residual is low and one purchases at the end of the lease.

As for your friend that is "upside down", he must have paid too much, picked a highly depreciating car, and maybe too long a loan at too high an interest rate. If it was a 19k car and is only worth 5k four years later, that is a horrendous depreciation rate. Even then, if he keeps the car until it is paid off, he will have no car payment and positive equity.

Actually, the best way, financially, to own a relatively new car is to buy a year or two old used car which has absorbed the fastest period of depreciation. Granted there is some risk of getting a lemon, but cars these days are usually reliable to a 100k easily, and some have 5 or 6 year bumper to bumper warranties. (Hyundai, Kia, VW)

Edit: one could look at a lease this way. You say the purchase option was 11.5k, and the trade in value was 7k. Now you could not purchase the car for 7k, but lets say you could purchase the car for 9k on the open market. That means you are in effect 2.5k "upside down". It is just that you dont have to eat that cost up front, but instead have to start a brand new lease.

 

[heymrdj]

In what way did you "come out ahead"? Was it a 3 year lease? If so you paid 7700 dollars (plus monthly tax), and ended up with nothing at the end. With a purchase, even if one is upside down for one or two or even 3 years, *eventually* you will be ahead and ultimately own the car. With a lease/turn in, you are perpetually making a car payment. Now leasing does have advantages, low down payment, having a new, reliable car all the time, etc. but financially, one rarely if ever comes out ahead. In fact, the only way I can think of that one would come out ahead is if the residual is low and one purchases at the end of the lease.

As for your friend that is "upside down", he must have paid too much, picked a highly depreciating car, and maybe too long a loan at too high an interest rate. If it was a 19k car and is only worth 5k four years later, that is a horrendous depreciation rate. Even then, if he keeps the car until it is paid off, he will have no car payment and positive equity.

Actually, the best way, financially, to own a relatively new car is to buy a year or two old used car which has absorbed the fastest period of depreciation. Granted there is some risk of getting a lemon, but cars these days are usually reliable to a 100k easily, and some have 5 or 6 year bumper to bumper warranties. (Hyundai, Kia, VW)

Edit: one could look at a lease this way. You say the purchase option was 11.5k, and the trade in value was 7k. Now you could not purchase the car for 7k, but lets say you could purchase the car for 9k on the open market. That means you are in effect 2.5k "upside down". It is just that you dont have to eat that cost up front, but instead have to start a brand new lease.

The stories are here and other places. DCT transmissions that need new clutch packs every year. Ford has class action lawsuits on the on these two models. You simply can’t get out of these cars. They actually had high residual value back when we got them, the Focus was nearly Fords fastest selling vehicle at the time. But then the issues came out, and the reluctance to fix it, then 1800$ out of warranty repairs, then lawsuits as Ford knew there was a problem, then 150K transmission warranty extensions etc etc. You can read the Ford story in just about any common car forum. The fact is there was nothing in the begging to say they would be bad cars. One of us leased, dropped the car off, and got into something he enjoys driving. The other loathes the car every day, is still paying it off, and can’t sell it for hardly anything. Residual at the end of 3 years was supposed to be 62% according to most forums where dealers discussed the values from Ford. That never happened, at the end of year two value plummeted and no one that had them were ever going to escape the cars without taking a loss, even if they bought them used a year in.

That’s the “value”. Then again, if to you the value of cars is only in their $$$, I question your need to even be in a garage section of a forum. There’s plenty of Corollas and Camry’s for those that enjoy driving quiet lifeless refrigerators on wheels.

 

[frozentundra123456]

I think two years is a bit fast, but 10-20 years? That tells me you think of the car as an appliance, and this conversation isn’t for you or about you. There’s no value to a car that old besides no payments. It’s not reliable (unless you don’t drive, I’d have about 350K in 10 years), and whatever tech is out there will be well missed. There’s an entire forum thread for your model/generation of car just to get all the third party parts and pieces needed just to get some poor attempt at a Bluetooth connection working that doesn’t require a 30 pin iPod connector lol.

I have a 12 year old Honda Civic with 150k on it and it is a perfectly fine car for day to day usage. Very reliable, good gas mileage, no rust, and I have no problem at all getting parts. I recently bought a newer car, but only because I needed two cars. As far as the features, the only things I miss are cruise control and power locks, and that is not due to the age of the car, but due to my purchase decision to buy a stripped down model. I hate to tell you, but the days of a 10 year old car being unreliable and having no value are long past.

 

[frozentundra123456]

The stories are here and other places. DCT transmissions that need new clutch packs every year. Ford has class action lawsuits on the on these two models. You simply can’t get out of these cars. They actually had high residual value back when we got them, the Focus was nearly Fords fastest selling vehicle at the time. But then the issues came out, and the reluctance to fix it, then 1800$ out of warranty repairs, then lawsuits as Ford knew there was a problem, then 150K transmission warranty extensions etc etc. You can read the Ford story in just about any common car forum. The fact is there was nothing in the begging to say they would be bad cars. One of us leased, dropped the car off, and got into something he enjoys driving. The other loathes the car every day, is still paying it off, and can’t sell it for hardly anything. Residual at the end of 3 years was supposed to be 62% according to most forums where dealers discussed the values from Ford. That never happened, at the end of year two value plummeted and no one that had them were ever going to escape the cars without taking a loss, even if they bought them used a year in.

That’s the “value”. Then again, if to you the value of cars is only in their $$$, I question your need to even be in a garage section of a forum. There’s plenty of Corollas and Camry’s for those that enjoy driving quiet lifeless refrigerators on wheels.

Well I was going to express sympathy for you until you started with the personal insults. and taking it on yourself to decide who is worthy to be in this forum. I guess you did "come out ahead" in that you were able to get out of a bad decision, whereas you friend cannot. Maybe you should have bought one of those Corollas or Camrys that you seem to despise so much.

 

[heymrdj]

This and your previous post simply prove my statement. It’s not playing gatekeeper, it’s simply an observation. You’re coming to an *enthusiast* section and asking why they don’t just drive cheap and boring cars, making do without certain features just to save some money. Do you go to the build your own computer section and ask them to buy 1-2 year used computers with integrated graphics and just forget about gaming because that makes for a cheaper computer?

By the way I had a 2012 Civic LX, got it as a closeout for dirt cheap. It had a few warranty repairs due to the new design but no major flaws. It did have CC though. Got totaled by a senior citizen who decided he needed to turn into a road by crossing in front of my lane from the middle lane. The fiesta replaced the Civic because if the Civics absolutely useless vertical trunk space. At least now they have a hatchback model, though from pictures it doesn’t seem like a very tall cargo area.

 

[monkeydelmagico]

It's absurd. I have no problem with luxury cars or ridiculously bonkers sports cars if that is your thing: just people doing abjectly stupid things with their money and machines.

Without abject stupidity we would not have brands like Fiat or Alfa. Ratcheting it down a notch to just mere stupidity would leave us without such fine examples of automotive expression as Jaguar or Porsche.

Let's be honest. Without some stupid mixed in the automotive landscape would be bleak. The emotional decisions some people make regarding cars transcends logic. If renting a Volvo using a new fee for service paradigm happens to tickle someone's fancy, and they have the means to do it, I say more power to them.

I don't disagree with your analysis there Spock. I'm just saying it's a bit too rational.

 

[Kaido]

Without abject stupidity we would not have brands like Fiat or Alfa. Ratcheting it down a notch to just mere stupidity would leave us without such fine examples of automotive expression as Jaguar or Porsche.

Let's be honest. Without some stupid mixed in the automotive landscape would be bleak. The emotional decisions some people make regarding cars transcends logic. If renting a Volvo using a new fee for service paradigm happens to tickle someone's fancy, and they have the means to do it, I say more power to them.

I don't disagree with your analysis there Spock. I'm just saying it's a bit too rational.

Get back to work, citizen!

 

[Kaido]

I don't disagree with your analysis there Spock. I'm just saying it's a bit too rational.

One more

 

[ondma]

Without abject stupidity we would not have brands like Fiat or Alfa. Ratcheting it down a notch to just mere stupidity would leave us without such fine examples of automotive expression as Jaguar or Porsche.

Let's be honest. Without some stupid mixed in the automotive landscape would be bleak. The emotional decisions some people make regarding cars transcends logic. If renting a Volvo using a new fee for service paradigm happens to tickle someone's fancy, and they have the means to do it, I say more power to them.

I don't disagree with your analysis there Spock. I'm just saying it's a bit too rational.

They are two separate questions really. When someone posts about a new subscription service, or claims they "came out ahead" one assumes they are evaluating the financial value of the transaction. What one wants in a car is another question, that can also be considered. But in evaluating a lease vs purchase or the new subscription service, it seems to me the financial value would be a major way of evaluating it.

 

[ultimatebob]

I would consider doing a program like this if Audi ever offered one. Audi's seem to age rather quickly, no sane person wants to hold onto an Audi after the warranty runs out. The parts and labor at the stealership to get repairs done are too damn expensive.

 

[bradly1101]

You’re coming to an *enthusiast* section

Dude, you just explained to me why I get so much disdain here. I never thought of The Garage as an enthusiast's only area. I'm very enthusiastic about logical, reliable, safe cars. That's not the enthusiasm that's welcome here though. I finally get it.

 

[thecoolnessrune]

Dude, you just explained to me why I get so much disdain here. I never thought of The Garage as an enthusiast's only area. I'm very enthusiastic about logical, reliable, safe cars. That's not the enthusiasm that's welcome here though. I finally get it.

I think this point is more extrapolated to "Stay in your lane". For instance, if you go to the CPU section of the forums, you'll see thread titles hammering out the virtues of the ThreadRipper platform and the Skylake-X platform. No one tends to go in those threads going "yeah, but you could buy an i5-8400 and barely notice the difference in like 90% of your workload". At the same time, there's threads in that same section that are constantly fighting over "best bang for buck gaming system" and "cheapest usable computer build". You don't see people going in those threads going "yeah, but if you buy this $1,000 CPU, you'll be so much happier." People tend to "stay in their own lane."

The same situation can be applied to these threads too. If you're going into a thread talking about spending $500 a month on a premium car, all-inclusive and never more than 2 years old, you aren't the same clientele that's evaluating buying a Camry and keeping it for 20 years. Regardless of the savings to be had, you just don't understand what's driving (hah) someone else's goals. That's fine though. We don't all have to have the same goals.

On the same note, we have threads in hear comparing a 10 year old car to a 6 year old car, that looking for a $5K used truck, etc. etc. Those are fine. People go in there and discuss things. But if you go in there and are like "well if you just got financing and bought this $20K truck instead you'd be way better off, and it's dumb not to do it that way" then you probably will get some ire thrown in your direction.

The simple fact of the matter is people, especially on the internet, love to be confrontational about their own preferences. Moreso than they probably even mean to, but it's simple fact that people have their own tastes, preferences, and financial goals, and they tend to set that scope as a global with differing views being considered absurd.

As someone else mentioned, this really isn't a thread about a car, it's a thread about what someone sees as a good way to spend $500 on something they enjoy.

And thus here we are.

 

[Kaido]

Dude, you just explained to me why I get so much disdain here. I never thought of The Garage as an enthusiast's only area. I'm very enthusiastic about logical, reliable, safe cars. That's not the enthusiasm that's welcome here though. I finally get it.

No, that's totally okay! It's just that it's not the only perspective out there, and it's important to realize that what may sound like a dumb idea to you may sound like a great idea to someone else, because their situation is different. Bugatti sells a $3 million supercar, which seems a little excessive to me, but 300 of them are already spoken for. Some people are into vintage muscle cars, some people like high-end performance cars, some people like electric cars - there's no right or wrong answer.

Take the bolded quote above, for instance - the safest consumer car out there, measured, is a Tesla Model S, with a 5.4-star crash-test rating. No spark plugs, gasoline, oil, etc. also make it one of the most reliable cars...it's basically a rolling battery pack with a simple motor driving it. Logically, with the top-end price above $150k, maybe not so much of a great financial decision (but that also depends on your budget!). So then you can look at Volvo's for safety, given their heritage, or if that's out of budget, then look at Subaru's, where the engines are designed to drop under the car instead of shoving into the occupants, among numerous other safety features.

It could also be argued that you might as well get a used car, logically, at a cost-savings, but if you're looking for safety & reliability, then a new car with unused parts & the most up-to-date safety features like TACC + LSF, LKAS, AEB, etc. makes more sense, to last as long as possible & to keep you as safe as possible. But a lot of us are on a budget, so buying new is not always an available option, nor is it even desirable in a lot of cases due to new-car, off-the-lot depreciation. I drove around a tin can in college before I could afford to lease a basic sedan with modern features like a CD player (lol), and it was the best car that I could afford at the time, and I was happy to have a hoopty because it got me around!

So everyone is at a different stage in their lives with different budgets and different interests. While $600 sounds pretty expensive for a monthly car bill, if you want a compact luxury SUV and want a new one every year or two with all of the maintenance & insurance included on one bill, then this is a pretty neat option. However, $600 also buys me two Kia Souls, plus pizza every weekend. Depends on what you want, what you're into, and what you can afford. So you have to look at vehicles & discussion threads based on those three criteria to start out with, I think, and also just enjoy discussing car stuff. I think the idea of a car subscription is pretty cool - order it on your phone, pay the monthly subscription on your phone, do an early upgrade a year in, or just swap out every two years, just like a cell phone - pretty neat! Is $600 a month pretty neat? For me personally, not so much, but for some people, yes!

So part of the Garage is just discussing things for the fun of it & part of it is remembering that what is great for you may not be great for someone else, and vice-versa. Especially because those points could be argued all day long. Like if you want maximum personal safety, why not just buy a dump truck or a semi-truck? The weight would stomp out anything around you in the event of an accident. Not so practical, although you can get a big rig for less than the price of a used Ford F-350, so not impossible!

Another example, I'm a big fan of leasing, which is another not-so-popular opinion here. I drive too many miles to consider leasing right now, but I leased both of our cars for about 10 years or so. My personal goal was to have an extremely reliable vehicle because getting to work was critical, as I work in IT & don't have time to be bringing my car into the shop all the time. All I ever had to do on a lease was change the oil & rotate the tires, which I did through the drive-through lube places quickly. I always had pretty basic leases (under $300/mo with tax) and it turned out that having a fixed vehicle bill (with no expensive surprise repairs) makes it pretty dang easy to budget around, especially if you broke it down by day (~$10 a day, so even if you were working at McDonalds for minimum wage, a reliable car was within realistic reach). But a lot of people think leasing a car or buying a new car is a huge waste of money, and if that meets their personal goals, then more power to them! But it's not the only perspective out there, and it's not a right or wrong perspective, it's just a personal opinion.

So that's all. Just because something looks dumb for one person's situation doesn't mean it's dumb for someone else's. Volvo subscriptions are a really interesting way to sell new, compact luxury cars, which Volvo can then turn around & re-sell after 2 years with low mileage (due to the subscription terms, regarding max miles allowed before charging per-mile), making them attractive offerings in the late-model used market. Just another option to look at & a semi-new way of doing business, which is pretty cool!

 

[Kaido]

The simple fact of the matter is people, especially on the internet, love to be confrontational about their own preferences. Moreso than they probably even mean to, but it's simple fact that people have their own tastes, preferences, and financial goals, and they tend to set that scope as a global with differing views being considered absurd.

That's a gold post right there, and that's pretty much what it boils down to!

 

[Kaido]

CNN has an interesting article on vehicle subscriptions:

http://money.cnn.com/2018/05/01/technology/car-subscription/index.html

Ford's approach is very interesting: (only available in certain parts of California right now)

Offering used vehicles allows Ford and Lincoln to keep monthly costs down. For instance, you drive a Fusion sedan for $389 a month. Or you can move up to a Mustang for $545 a month. You could lease a 2015 Mustang for about $400 a month or less, according to the web site Swapalease.com, but the Canvas fee includes insurance and maintenance.

Ford's Canvas program includes the following in the monthly car price:

* Comprehensive insurance
* All routine maintenance
* Bumper to bumper warranty
* Tire wear & tear replacement
* Roadside assistance

No registration fees, flexible mileage packages, unused miles roll over, 1 to 12 month subscriptions (or longer), and price includes delivery, so apparently you just hop in the app, pick your car, how long you want it for, and how many miles you want, and they come out & drop it off to you (and pick up the old one, if you're swapping).

Pricing depends on model & features. You can browse the LA offerings here:

https://drivecanvas.com/app/?region=Los Angeles

It includes both Ford & Lincoln vehicles. Cheapest is a Fiesta SE for $345/mo; highest is the Navigator at $1,165/mo. Looks like they're still fleshing out their offerings, but eventually you can get an F-150, a C-MAX hybrid, a Lincoln Continental, a Ford Explorer, a Mustang, etc. That'd be pretty cool, like if you're doing a bunch of projects one month & can basically just rent a truck for the month or whatever.

 

[Midwayman]

I have to wonder if this sort of stuff is research into what a driverless car model will look like? Getting people renting instead of owning will be a big transition in the next decade.

 

[sontakke]

Ford canvas program; i bet they say "no credit check; come on down"

 

[Kaido]

I have to wonder if this sort of stuff is research into what a driverless car model will look like? Getting people renting instead of owning will be a big transition in the next decade.

I've used ZipCar in NYC before, which is kind of like Uber, except you drive it, and you keep it as long as you need to for the day, then just kind of leave it wherever for the next person to pick up who needs a car nearby. It's a pretty cool system for densely-populated cities. Long-range electric (or fast chargers, or wireless chargers available everywhere) & self-driving will change the landscape of that quite a bit, I think.