60fps=slide show (poll)

[EMAN]

Do you think average of 60fps is a slide show?

 

[BFG10K]

Yet again EMAN blatantly avoids the real issues at hand. The question should be "compared to 120 FPS that is, is 60 FPS a slideshow?".

Also those of you who answered "no", are you saying that when you play games at an average of 60 FPS that it never drops to levels which are choppy (ie a slideshow)? If you are, I'm really interested to see how you arrived at that conclusion.

Simply voting "no" because you feel like it is not valid. But of couurse EMAN will never understand that simplistic opinion polls like this mean nothing so I'll continue to humour him by playing along.

 

[VOLT]

60FPS!!! I never got that high in any current games!

 

[Rand]

Assuming a straight average of 60FPS, no I don't feel it's a slide show at all. To me that would be totally acceptable and 100% playable.

With an average of 60, you would probably have sustained peaks of about 100-120FPS, and sustained minimums of abouts 35-40FPS.... all least that's what my minimums usually are when hitting an average of 60FPS. I often tend to game with FRAPS running in the corner so I usually have a pretty good idea of the frame rates I'm getting.

 

[EMAN]

Bfg your the one with blunt statement saying "60fps is a slide show". Goto the thread BFG and you plainly admitted saying that "60fps is a slide show".

Of course you and your blunt statement got you where you are today and your fanboy attitude.

 

[Insidious]

Rand,

tell me about

<< I often tend to game with FRAPS running >>



is this an app that works on top of anything.... I'd love to have something like that

Thx!

 

[EMAN]

Fraps works for Direct 3D games even than it doesn't work for all games.

Rand notice I post 60fps=slide show. I didn't say if it was playable. If 60fps is a slide show than what is 30fps? Still picture.

 

[Rand]

<< Rand,

tell me about

<< I often tend to game with FRAPS running >>



is this an app that works on top of anything.... I'd love to have something like that

Thx! >>


Linky
In only runs under DirectX, not OpenGL but it's worked under every DirectX game I've ever played, and the newer versions of FRAPS allow you to record minimum/average/maximum frame rates anytime you want.
It's not as good as an actual 100% fully identically repeatable benchmark naturally, but it will give you an excellent idea of what frame rates you seeing.
Quite a handy little utility.


<< Rand notice I post 60fps=slide show. I didn't say if it was playable. If 60fps is a slide show than what is 30fps? Still picture. >>



Well if I find 60FPS playable, it's pretty safe to say that I don't consider it a slide show.



<< If 60fps is a slide show than what is 30fps? Still picture. >>



Of course it's still a picture, even an average of 10 billion FPS, or 1 FPS would still be a picture.

 

[qeru]

<< Yet again EMAN blatantly avoids the real issues at hand. The question should be "compared to 120 FPS that is, is 60 FPS a slideshow?".

Also those of you who answered "no", are you saying that when you play games at an average of 60 FPS that it never drops to levels which are choppy (ie a slideshow)? If you are, I'm really interested to see how you arrived at that conclusion.

Simply voting "no" because you feel like it is not valid. But of couurse EMAN will never understand that simplistic opinion polls like this mean nothing so I'll continue to humour him by playing along. >>



if 60fps is a slideshow, then you must be watching slideshows everyday on your tv. I think you know that ntsc standard runs at 30fps x 2 fields = 60fps. not to mention movies that play at 24fps.

 

[EMAN]

Of course it's still a picture, even an average of 10 billion FPS, or 1 FPS would still be a picture.

:QROTFL, nice one. I still can't stop laughing.

 

[BFG10K]

With an average of 100, you would probably have sustained peaks of about 100-120FPS, and sustained minimums of abouts 35-40FPS.... all least that's what my minimums usually are when hitting an average of 60FPS

May I ask why you think that an average of 100 FPS and an average of 60 FPS will yield the same minimum scores? Because that statement is completely false. The higher the average, the higher the minimum is likely to be. I would have thought that everyone knew this.

if 60fps is a slideshow, then you must be watching slideshows everyday on your tv. I think you know that ntsc standard runs at 30fps x 2 fields = 60fps. not to mention movies that play at 24fps.

Gosh, these guys are a dime-a-dozen. It's amazing how many people come up with these "movies = 3D games" statements.

 

[merlocka]

Once again.

Remember to differentiate between minimum FPS, instantanious FPS, a timedemo FPS, and Max FPS.

-60FPS minimum would be nice, 90FPS minimum would be better.

-60FPS in a timedemo would depend on the demo and game:

A timedemo average of 60fps could be a slideshow at certain points in a game. The mins could be below half that. For example, 60fps in Wolfenstien atdemo8 would lead to a slideshow if playing WolfMP. The minimums could be in the 10's or lower.

-Instantanious FPS of 60 would produce acceptable visuals in almost all games. In games where physics and input are related to how many fps are rendered (especially when you are used to hundreds of fps) could play very choppy. I would call this a slideshow as well, because if I sense any choppyness I shut the game down and turn something off until it's smooth.

For example, If I'm running SETI@home while playing Q3 or any mod of Q3 I notice sections of maps which drop into the 50's. It's so annoying to me I usually end up alt-tabbing to shut off SETidriver. I wish I could make a startup script for RA3 which would shut SETI off when I start playing.

-60FPS Max is suck.

IMO, for first person shooters I want speed above all and then I turn off effects. The main reason I upgraded from a GTS 32MB to a GF3 64MB is so I could turn off S3TC without noticing a performance hit.

Don't worry BFG, your not alone in your opinion. There are more like us but most are too busy actually playing the games to post on how many FPS we want...

How many do I want? All of them.

 

[EMAN]

This poll isn't about how many FPS you want Merlocka. It's a poll to determine if 60fps is a slide show.
Even though I want little more than 60fps I still don't consider 60fps a slide show.

Average of 60fps gives you

Typical minimum of 25fps.
Typical Maximum of 95fps.

Isn't ATdemo8 mostly a CPU intensive benchmark?

 

[vedin]

60fps in a timedemo is plenty for me. I'm getting 56 right now on my computer in Quake 3, and I'm darn happy with it. Granted, it would get slower were I online, but since I'm on dial-up I don't do online gaming. I don't get the mutliplayer arguement though. If you were getting 60 online, it would look the same as 60 off. The arguement is rather 60 is a slideshow, not is 60 a slideshow single-player, and then less multi. Oh, and I still say BFG is full of bull based on how he said he and others can occassionally see skipping in movies. If they can, they have spent WAY too much time trying to look for movies skipping. I tried to see it, and I failed misserably. TV and Movies look smooth regaurdless of what relevance they have to this, or what frame rate and blurriness they go through. For those who think the human eye does NOT have a cap on how many frames it can see..look at the floor. Now move your hand back and forth in front of you really fast. See a nice smooth transition? Nope. You saw it blur. Frankly, I'm pretty sure the world would look all screwy if we could see many hundreds of frames per second.

 

[Rand]

<<

May I ask why you think that an average of 100 FPS and an average of 60 FPS will yield the same minimum scores? Because that statement is completely false. The higher the average, the higher the minimum is likely to be. I would have thought that everyone knew this.
>>



Sorry, typo!
That's definitely was not what I meant to say
The first "100" was meant to be a 60. I've fixed it in my original post now.

 

[merlocka]

<< This poll isn't about how many FPS you want Merlocka.

It's a poll to determine if 60fps is a slide show.
Even though I want little more than 60fps I still don't consider 60fps a slide show.

>>



LOL, sorry for disagreeing with your opinion.

And I explained what I do and do-not consider 60fps a slide show. Did you catch that part?



<<

Average of 60fps gives you

Typical minimum of 25fps.
Typical Maximum of 95fps.

>>



And per my explanation above, I deem that a slide show.



<< Isn't ATdemo8 mostly a CPU intensive benchmark? >>



from the anadtech review of Radeon 8500

We chose atdemo8 for this comparison since it is more video card bound while atdemo6 is more of a CPU test

I think our very own Anandtech FAQ sums it up quite well:


Where your comfort level will be won?t be the same as everyone else?s. A good baseline minimum is thirty frames per second, although those weaned on PAL TV may find twenty five frames per second to be tolerable thirty is still considered to be the minimum. That generally translates out to an average of sixty frames per second using benchmarking methods that don?t report the average, although more intense gamers, particularly those who focus on first person shooters, the limits of human perception are closer to six hundred frames per second if not higher.

So, the 19% who voted yes are just intense gamers. No need to prove us wrong, don't bother telling us 60fps is enough.

You should be happy that we buy the expensive hardware so we can get the framerates we want and others can buy more economical cards which don't perform as well.

 

[sMashPiranha]

I wouldn't call 60 fps a slideshow, but it does hurt my eyes/brain/whatever. Anything less than 80-90 fps annoys me.

 

[EMAN]

My fault Merlocka. I thought it was CPU intensive benchmark?

I'm not trying to prove that 60fps is all you need. I'm trying to prove that 60fps is not a slide show.

 

[BFG10K]

Gee, one other person completely agrees with my statements and EMAN immediately starts to backpeddle. Also more than 20% of voters agree with me. Perhaps they along with myself know something you don't, EMAN?

And look at these statements made by both Rand and EMAN himself:

With an average of 60...sustained minimums of abouts 35-40FPS....
Average of 60fps gives you Typical minimum of 25fps.

Those numbers in bold are the key to this discussion and they are most certainly a slideshow no matter which way you look at it, especially if your target is a minimum of 60 FPS (which mine is). With 120 FPS you are less likely to go that low and you stay above your target of 60 FPS much more often.

That is exactly why "you only need X FPS" and "movies play at X FPS" statements are completely meaningless because in reality you can use everything you can get.

I'm not trying to prove that 60fps is all you need. I'm trying to prove that 60fps is not a slide show.

When 60 FPS average drops below 60 FPS minimum (which it will do often) that is when you start experiencing slowdowns, jerkiness and sluggishness. I can immediately sense when I've dropped below 60 FPS. Therefore 60 FPS is a slideshow because in frequently puts you below the threshold of smoothness.

 

[EMAN]

That's it I'm really back paddling BFG. What ever man. I was just correcting him if he misunderstood me.

Those numbers in bold are the key to this discussion and they are most certainly a slideshow no matter which way you look at it, especially if your target is a minimum of 60 FPS (which mine is). With 120 FPS you are less likely to go that low and you stay above your target of 60 FPS much more often.

Maybe to you but everybody who voted "NO" don't think so.



When 60 FPS average drops below 60 FPS minimum (which it will do often) that is when you start experiencing slowdowns, jerkiness and sluggishness. I can immediately sense when I've dropped below 60 FPS. Therefore 60 FPS is a slideshow because in frequently puts you below the threshold of smoothness.

Again it's only you and couple other people that think that. Majority here think that 60fps is not a slide show. Playing with minimum of 25fps is not a slide show no matter how you look at it. You can argue all you want but almost 80% of people disagree with you.

Sure I want more FPS but at the cost of what? Image quality. Not everybody in here want pure fps if they did we would still be playing with 16bit color and lower resolutions.

 

[vlieps]

Hey, BFG, I thought You were a reasonable man, but now I see You are just one of those flamers "I am always right, yeah, yeah, yeah..."

First of all the question is not defined correctly. In any racing game, simulator, RPG etc. 60 fps is more than enough, and one has to be nuts to call it a slideshow. Racing games, in my opinion really do equal the movies. So, above 30 fps is enough.
Every situation is individual, just a harsh statement 60 fps average = BAD, is not correct.
Stop flaming and accusing people they are stupid. I never play 3D shooters, so I think 60 fps is NOT a slideshow and i wote for it, You play ONLY 3D shooters, You make Your vote, that's it.

 

[Priit]

Heh, I have played UT with 40FPS maximum and it still felt good enough for me...

 

[JeremiahTheGreat]

Define average..

if it's 60FPS constant, i'll say hell no.

If its 10000FPS then 1/6FPS then back to 100000fps again over and over, i'll say hell yeah.

 

[Spike]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the max number of FPS you can even see is based on the refresh rate of your monitor. I run at 1600x1200 @ 85hz, so under winXP, I can see 85fps, right? I have noticed that under most games, the refresh rate drops to 60hz. Doesn't that mean that I can only really experience a max of 60fps even of the game is techincally running at 120fps?

 

[Innoka]

It's abundantly clear that BFG10K has an extremist position. So why see offense in it. I didn't find BFG as tiresome as those who are arguing against him. The rest of the world goes on as before and neither "prove" anything to each other or me either...