Info 64MB V-Cache on 5XXX Zen3 Average +15% in Games

[Kedas]

Well we know now how they will bridge the long wait to Zen4 on AM5 Q4 2022.
Production start for V-cache is end this year so too early for Zen4 so this is certainly coming to AM4.
+15% Lisa said is "like an entire architectural generation"

 

[igor_kavinski]

They have been doing that since the 5800X3D official announcement on January 2022

In my defense, the slide I'm referring to was probably not shared before. It shows AMD winning in 16 games. But yeah, I missed them doing the comparison with 12900K in the January event.

 

[igor_kavinski]

How do you say you have the fastest gaming CPU, then not compare it to 12th gen? Take all the time you need.

Good question! But it just seemed weird to me. Kinda like how reviewers compared the i9-12900K to the 5950X at launch even though both have different price points. And now AMD is doing the same, comparing with a CPU at least a $100 more expensive.

 

[nicalandia]

In my defense, the slide I'm referring to was probably not shared before. It shows AMD winning in 16 games. But yeah, I missed them doing the comparison with 12900K in the January event.

True. Perhaps they did not have them at the time or they did not want to disclose all of that info way back on January

 

[Tuna-Fish]

Who knows if and when there'll be consumer X3D versions of Zen 4 chips.

I think the answer for "if" is definitely and "when" is about the same day that TSMC has 5nm stacking ready. The rumors about Zen 4 not having X3D versions is entirely based on the fact that TSMC isn't advertising 5nm stacking being ready yet. Milan-X was the first large-volume customer for 7nm hybrid bonding SoIC, Genoa-X will almost certainly be the first large-volume customer for 5nm hybrid bonding SoIC, and very soon after that, a desktop product will follow.

But yeah, that might still take a while.

 

[lobz]

@nicalandia

19-1080.8b5d1339.png (1691×950) (computerbase.de)

AMD is officially pitting the 5800X3D against i9-12900K. They really must view Alder Lake as a threat.

What do you mean 'threat'? It's out for almost half a year now, steadily leading gaming benchmarks ever since. How is reality a threat?

 

[igor_kavinski]

What do you mean 'threat'?

The few dry months after the ADL launch made it seem like AMD couldn't be bothered with a response. But the launch of 5500/5600/5700 and now comparing their $449 CPU to a $600 CPU makes it seem like AMD is gearing up to compete with Intel properly again.

Whether anyone accepts or not, ADL did make them go, "Uh Oh". And it's not from the performance standpoint alone. It's the fact that despite being power hungry and hot, people are still buying 12900K. It's the number 6 best selling CPU on Amazon. I mean, really??? If people had more sense than money, this spot should have been occupied by the 12600K and the 12900K should have been in the top 20, not the top 10.

 

[lobz]

The few dry months after the ADL launch made it seem like AMD couldn't be bothered with a response. But the launch of 5500/5600/5700 and now comparing their $449 CPU to a $600 CPU makes it seem like AMD is gearing up to compete with Intel properly again.

Whether anyone accepts or not, ADL did make them go, "Uh Oh". And it's not from the performance standpoint alone. It's the fact that despite being power hungry and hot, people are still buying 12900K. It's the number 6 best selling CPU on Amazon. I mean, really??? If people had more sense than money, this spot should have been occupied by the 12600K and the 12900K should have been in the top 20, not the top 10.

I understand you less and less. The response was already known, it was (and in a sense still is with Zen 4) in the works. It's not really a genitalia comparing contest, so when the market buys everything you produce, you're not really in a rush. Intel and AMD are obviously following a different release cadence.

 

[Karnak]

Whether anyone accepts or not, ADL did make them go, "Uh Oh".

How?

We know that Zen3 was "prepared" for the extra cache from the beginning. Launch was in November 2020. But when did they start with the development of Zen3? Like 2018? Maybe even earlier?

But besides that the official V-Cache announcement was during Computex 2021. That was late May/early June. ADL launch was five (!) months later. So how is that a "response"? Really, I don't get that at all.

New lower ends part in their desktop lineup are really no surprise. Had to happen at some point. Now they're doing it just altogether with their GPU refreshes only a few weeks later.

 

[igor_kavinski]

How?

Why sell their 32 thread 5950X for less than the 24 thread 12900K? This to me is them acknowledging, oh wait, we have a problem.

 

[nicalandia]

Why sell their 32 thread 5950X for less than the 24 thread 12900K? This to me is them acknowledging, oh wait, we have a problem.

They are just clearing stock for Zen4.

 

[A///]

5900X was going for 380 this morning on Amazon....

This processor is impressive in gaming. There's a hit in productivity but understandable. I suspect this is mostly due to the minor underclock it has vs. the regular 5800X. I get why this didn't come to the R9 processors. I'm not entirely sure if we'll see v-cache on Ryzen 7K, to be honest. There's enough stupid rumors about 7K to fill Caesar's Palace.


In a perfect world, this processor would have come out around the time the 12th gen processors from Intel released. But even now the 5800x3D is good value for those in the AM4 socket era vs going with a new intel build.

 

[Mopetar]

We know that Zen3 was "prepared" for the extra cache from the beginning. Launch was in November 2020. But when did they start with the development of Zen3? Like 2018? Maybe even earlier?

Maybe I'm misremembering, but didn't AMD say that the groundwork for v-cache was being lain starting with Zen 2?

This is something that they've been working on for a while now, at least for server chips. I don't know when they explicitly figured out that it was good for gaming, but I do agree that it's a bit silly to frame Zen 3D as a response to Intel because AMD felt threatened. People seem to forget that up until Zen 3, AMD was always behind Intel and they never had a problem selling chips during that time.

 

[nicalandia]

it's a bit silly to frame Zen 3D as a response to Intel because AMD felt threatened.

Some Upper Management got in trouble because he disclosed that they had finished Zen5 already(that was 3 years ago), you can bet that Stack L3 has been in the work for at least 4 years

 

[A///]

Some Upper Management got in trouble because he disclosed that they had finished Zen5 already(that was 3 years ago), you can bet that Stack L3 has been in the work for at least 4 years

I hate to be that guy, but could you provide some kind of source to back your post up? First time I'm hearing about this.

 

[nicalandia]

I hate to be that guy, but could you provide some kind of source to back your post up? First time I'm hearing about this.

Let me try to find it

 

[coercitiv]

It's the fact that despite being power hungry and hot, people are still buying 12900K. It's the number 6 best selling CPU on Amazon. I mean, really??? If people had more sense than money, this spot should have been occupied by the 12600K and the 12900K should have been in the top 20, not the top 10.

I wouldn't use the Amazon Best Seller CPUs as example for poor AMD sales, it's the EXACT OPPOSITE:



Your opponent hitting themselves repeatedly in the face with a frying pan is NOT threatening, it's just weird. Intel had an arguably great architecture with Golden Cove but the end product has had several problems that hampered adoption. From development decisions around the hybrid mix on desktop, to marketing decisions around default power limits and more importantly pushing for Windows 11 (which backfired in a grand way), and finally to platform change decisions around socket compatibility, DDR5 & DDR4 mix and most importantly motherboard production costs, everything conspired to delay consumer response to Alder Lake.

They should have taken AMD by storm, yet all they managed was the Amazon status quo from above. The 12600K as you put it should have been not above 12900K, it should have been in top three. The 6+4 chip from Intel is the best blend of value & performance in years, yet it failed to become an instant win in every chart. Let that sink in, look again at that Amazon chart.

The 12400, one of the most welcomed products on this forum, is number 17 on that list. It matches 5600X in just about every workload, has an iGPU and costs less. Number 17!!! Just because you have the better product does not mean it will sell itself. AMD learned this the hard way, it's now time for Intel to realize that childish marketing proposals such as PL1=PL2=250W is not enough to regain mind share.

 

[A///]

Amazon stores aren't universal. If that person is using anything but the .com store, the best seller hierarchy would be different.

 

[nicalandia]

I hate to be that guy, but could you provide some kind of source to back your post up? First time I'm hearing about this.

It was actually Mike Clark(Lead Zen Architect and Father of Zen) That got in trouble for disclosing Zen5. As it's not even officially been released or talk about



Source of ScreenShot: https://www.anandtech.com/show/17031/anandtech-interviews-mike-clark-amds-chief-architect-of-zen



That was Way, way back on 2018(one year later than Zen1)

 

[biostud]

Obviously if Intel hadn't released ADL the chance of 5800X3D existing would have been far less or at another price point. But to me the release of the 5800X3D simply shows that AMD has a flexible product stack, where they with relative ease can bring a server part into a desktop CPU line to create a gaming monster at a very reasonable price point.

I don't care if Intel or AMD has the best CPU, as long as both companies has competitive products, then we all win.

 

[A///]

It was actually Mike Clark(Lead Zen Architect and Father of Zen) That got in trouble for disclosing Zen5. As it's not even officially been released or talk about

My apologies. This is very interesting because I mentioned this in passing once on the forum here and caught some flack for making a claim but found the original interview in earnest, it still didn't make sense with the slides that came out later. I can't remember the posters name I discussed this with but he's a fairly regular poster. We butted heads about AMD being on time or not being on time a few times. Again, thank you.

Though I do remember it being said at hotchips 2016 that AMD had revamped their design dept to hop frog each generation. So, yeah, this makes a lot of sense years later. Of course with the amount of FUD and FOMO going on other social media you'd think AMD was crying locked to a railing on a sinking titanic again.

 

[coercitiv]

Amazon stores aren't universal. If that person is using anything but the .com store, the best seller hierarchy would be different.

The person I replied to used one Amazon hierarchy to define the market situation on a global scale. For me to refute his claim I only need to show the situation is not as he presents it on the bigger domain hierarchy.

At the same time it's commonly agreed here that Amazon store best seller charts are not good tools for estimating sales on the market, and them having different hierarchies based on domain location only reinforces this point.

 

[A///]

Obviously if Intel hadn't released ADL the chance of 5800X3D existing would have been far less or at another price point. But to me the release of the 5800X3D simply shows that AMD has a flexible product stack, where they with relative ease can bring a server part into a desktop CPU line to create a gaming monster at a very reasonable price point.

I don't care if Intel or AMD has the best CPU, as long as both companies has competitive products, then we all win.

This makes no sense. Intel would have to release a product one way or another. That's their shtick. AMD talked about v-cache at CES 2021 and showed it/demo'd it at Computex 2021. A long time before Intel released Alderlake which while impressive runs much hotter and at higher frequencies to do what it does. Both impressive and not impressive at the same time.

 

[A///]

The person I replied to used one Amazon hierarchy to define the market situation on a global scale. For me to refute his claim I only need to show the situation is not as he presents it on the bigger domain hierarchy.

At the same time it's commonly agreed here that Amazon store best seller charts are not good tools for estimating sales on the market, and them having different hierarchies based on domain location only reinforces this point.

I only mentioned it in passing because most people don't understand the .com, .ca, .co.uk, et al listings will show very different product sales and ID codes (IIRC). Amazon best seller metrics are sales based, but it would be foolish to think Amazon isn't selling thousands of units a week. Sales hierarchy gets easier within niches in a sub-category sales channel but not something as basic as CPU.

 

[nicalandia]

Though I do remember it being said at hotchips 2016 that AMD had revamped their design dept to hop frog each generation.

Just to make sure I am not in the wrong. I am viewing the Video of AMD Brief at Hotchips of 2016. But if I am not mistaken(which is often), I believe that it was AMD CTO Mark Papermaster that actually confirmed that information(of the Leapfrog Teams) one year after Mike Clark Spilled The Beans on Zen5 on 2018

According to Mark Papermaster, both the Zen 5 and Zen 4 core designs are being developed by two separate leapfrogging design teams. That was back on 2019 when he said that. I am sure that now on 2022 that the leapfrogging design teams are hard at work on Zen6/Zen7

 

[biostud]

This makes no sense. Intel would have to release a product one way or another. That's their shtick. AMD talked about v-cache at CES 2021 and showed it/demo'd it at Computex 2021. A long time before Intel released Alderlake which while impressive runs much hotter and at higher frequencies to do what it does. Both impressive and not impressive at the same time.

Sure, it was just if in some alternative universe Intel hadn't released a competitive product. And while we use a lot of time speculating about unreleased products, I think those working in the business might have more knowledge about what their competitors will release than we do.