Info 64MB V-Cache on 5XXX Zen3 Average +15% in Games

[Kedas]

Well we know now how they will bridge the long wait to Zen4 on AM5 Q4 2022.
Production start for V-cache is end this year so too early for Zen4 so this is certainly coming to AM4.
+15% Lisa said is "like an entire architectural generation"

 

[igor_kavinski]

Also prices on Vermeer are dropping everywhere as product gets pushed out of the channel.

Please excuse my ignorance but dumb question: who eats the loss in the price drop? The retailer or AMD?

 

[Insert_Nickname]

I'm sure LTT is all set and ready to burn a brand new 5800X3D on camera by overclocking it with a beta or modded BIOS to get 1 million views in 5 minutes

That particular video was already done 20-odd years ago. Athlons back then were a... hot... commodity*:

It's actually part of the reason we have both thermal throttling and integrated heat spreaders today...

*Sorry and sorry again. My twisted sense of humour couldn't resist. I'll get me coat.

 

[coercitiv]

Yes DDR5 is much more expensive but the ram will last longer than your next build.

For the price of the DDR5 today I can buy DDR4 and keep the difference in a bank account. That difference will easily buy me a faster DDR5 kit when my next system upgrade is due.

The stacked 3D cache seems more like a gimmick or perk but not something people pay extra for. Do car companies charge extra for AC in cars in 2022? It's a nice feature that comes with the car.

In car analogy talk the 3D cache is not an AC unit, but a turbo charged version of the engine. You don't really need that extra power on most of the roads you have access to, and yet people pay extra for the sport version anyway.

I've seen you repeatedly post this analysis on the forums: that ADL-S is ahead and AMD needs to address this or they'll lose sales. Believe it or not, you're biased. Not in the sense that you're biased towards a brand, but you're convinced that buyers are mostly rational (just like yourself). I've been through this myself, as colleagues at the agency I worked with a couple of years ago attempted to explain to me that I was biased towards rational buyers when building sales pitches.

AMD is riding a mind share wave right now, they managed to establish themselves as a premium brand with top gaming performance and that has enough momentum to keep sales going for a while. The 3D cache SKU has a very good chance of refreshing this mind share if it manages to beat or at least match 12900K(S) gaming performance. AMD gets to stay as a top gaming choice for the average consumer until Zen4 arrives, and Zen3 will continue to sell as the value option for quite a while longer.

 

[Markfw]

Please excuse my ignorance but dumb question: who eats the loss in the price drop? The retailer or AMD?

Most likely both. A small discount with the condition the retailer sell at X price, sotheretailer still makes less and also AMD.

 

[igor_kavinski]

That particular video was already done 20-odd years ago. Athlons back then were a... hot... commodity*:

Yeah, the last thing AMD wants is another infamous video like that showing a Ryzen catching fire. Hence, the 5800X3D OC disable order, methinks.

 

[jamescox]

Yeah, the last thing AMD wants is another infamous video like that showing a Ryzen catching fire. Hence, the 5800X3D OC disable order, methinks.

Such complex packages can have thermal stability issues due to different expansion rates for the different components. I assume a huge amount of engineering work has been done to make sure that this isn’t a problem. Perhaps it has a lower max temperature due to such issues that would make overclocking much more likely to damage the device.

 

[Det0x]

Here's another leak

AMD Asks Motherboard Makers to Remove Overclocking Options for Ryzen 7 5800X3D

TechPowerUp has verified a rumour posted over on VideoCardz that is quite puzzling, as AMD has asked motherboard makers to remove support for overclocking in the UEFI/BIOS for the Ryzen 7 5800X3D. When we asked for a reason as to why this was the case, we were told that AMD was keeping that...

www.techpowerup.com

I've dabbled a little with trying to overclock my Ryzen chips and i find not wasting time to be the better option

Pretty sure its the stacked 3d memory that cant run faster than 4.5ghz. Remember L3 run at same clockspeed (MP) as the cpu itself..
(3dstacked memory was originally developed for Milan X, which also happen to cap out at 4.5ghz max boosting)

Only solution for Vermeer X was to limit the clockspeed to 4.5ghz maximum and remove all overclocking options
("temperature issue" is just PR BS)

See no other logical explanation for this

 

[lobz]

I am not an AMD fanboy or an intel supporter. I just want cheap CPU's and competition is a good thing. The 5950x was $520 a few weeks ago on a woot deal. Alder Lake is ahead of Zen 3 and AMD seems to be ignoring that fact. Yes DDR5 is much more expensive but the ram will last longer than your next build. Greedy Intel seems to have learned from AMD with competitive prices for their Alder Lake CPU's vs. AMD. The stacked 3D cache seems more like a gimmick or perk but not something people pay extra for. Do car companies charge extra for AC in cars in 2022? It's a nice feature that comes with the car.

AMD really was doing it right with Zen+ and Zen2 with regards to pricing their products. With the advent of B550 and X570, not so much. PCI-4 is one and done. Those extra PCB layers are nice to look at but they do not add value to a PC build based on performance metrics.

With that said I am getting a Zen 3 CPU when the prices come to replace my 3600.

That has to be the worst analogy I've read this decade so far. If any car company were in the position where they are the only company that has a model with an AC, you can be damn sure they would charge the hell out of that model, regardless of what year it is. Is $449 a banger price? Heck no. Is it lower than what I feared the price would be? Absolutely.
At this point I'm not even sure you understand the concept of the word 'gimmick'.

 

[Markfw]

That has to be the worst analogy I've read this decade so far. If any car company were in the position where they are the only company that has a model with an AC, you can be damn sure they would charge the hell out of that model, regardless of what year it is. Is $449 a banger price? Heck no. Is it lower than what I feared the price would be? Absolutely.
At this point I'm not even sure you understand the concept of the word 'gimmick'.

The only part of this post I disagree with is the gimmick part if I understand you correctly. I expects the test results to show a 15% improvement in games, and not much else changes, so Zen3 can take the gaming crown back from ADL. With the multi-threaded crown already in their court, and power efficiency in their court, this leaves Zen 3 winning in all but a few single threaded benchmarks. I don't think thats a gimmick, but overall only a small boost for Zen, but all they need at the moment. My personal testing of ADL vs Zen3 on DC apps also show this power efficiency and multi-threaded advantage personally confirmed. And by50% for both. (details in the DC forum)

 

[leoneazzurro]

Pretty sure its the stacked 3d memory that cant run faster than 4.5ghz. Remember L3 run at same clockspeed (MP) as the cpu itself..
(3dstacked memory was originally developed for Milan X, which also happen to cap out at 4.5ghz max boosting)

Only solution for Vermeer X was to limit the clockspeed to 4.5ghz maximum and remove all overclocking options
("temperature issue" is just PR BS)

See no other logical explanation for this

I think that the temperature issue may not be a non-issue there.
Yes, cache may be the culprit but, AMD already realized on-die caches which can operate at frequencies >4,5GHz, even in mobile environment (Rembrandt reaches 4,9GHz turbo, Vermeer has been seen boosting to 5+GHz single core turbo without OC). With Vermeer-X we have stacked dies and that means that indeed the connection by TSV while being close to an on-die interface it will have for sure some limitation, but we have also a thermal interface between the two stacked dies. Which is a not trivial issue as AMD is adding the cache die thermal resistance, plus the resistance of said interface to the mix. So this too is contributing to the decision to limit frequency.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Please excuse my ignorance but dumb question: who eats the loss in the price drop? The retailer or AMD?

I'm gonna side with Mark on this one, though personally I don't exactly know. I do know that yearly/seasonal product (like automobiles) goes through a pricing cycle where it can sell for MSRP for awhile, before it goes into discount status, after which point (if still unsold) it goes to liquidation at much lower prices for everyone involved.

If you've watched AMD's product launches over the years, you can usually tell when they're trying to get stuff moved off shelves and out of supply channels, but it's hard to know exactly how AMD applies leverage to get everyone on board with price cuts.

See no other logical explanation for this

Didn't someone already demo a Milan-X @ 4.8 GHz max boost by setting unlimited EDC + TDC?

 

[Borealis7]

when the dust settles, i'll just look for the best 6C/12T CPU. and right now it looks like it will be from AMD in terms of price/perf.

 

[Det0x]

Didn't someone already demo a Milan-X @ 4.8 GHz max boost by setting unlimited EDC + TDC?

Haven't seen or heard anything about this, and i try to follow the Vermeer X news/rumors pretty tight as i'm playing with the idea about buying one just for fun. (already have a very good binned 5950x)

Could you please share link if you know where you saw it ?

*edit*
One quick google search later: AMD's EPYC 'Milan-X' overclocked to 4.8 GHz - TechnoSports

He also attempted to overclock the CPUs. Because server platforms aren’t built for overclocking, the specialist had to use a specialised motherboard designed for hyperscale data centres and containing an upgraded voltage control module to push the frequency of AMD’s EPYC 7773X processors to 4.80 GHz (boost).

They upped power limitations to 1500W (up from 280W by default) and increased voltage to 1.55V using the AMD EPYC Overclocking software. However, the CPUs were cooled using air coolers, which were running at high speeds and so making a lot of noise.

But not other proof then purely text/rumors as far as i can see ? Whole story sounds a little bit fishy..

*edit2*
Found the answer: https://videocardz.com/newz/amd-milan-x-7773x-epyc-cpus-with-3d-v-cache-get-overclocked-to-4-8-ghz

Overclocked to 4.8 GHz… but not really
The creator is using a special EPYC Milan/Rome ES/QS overclocking tool by Uat4 and ExecutableFix. This tool unlocks power limits and increases maximum all-core frequencies and voltages much higher than AMD intended, but only for engineering samples. However, this is not true overclocking. ExecutableFix explained to us that the frequency reported by CPU-Z software is not a real frequency, but rather a target. This is probably why Kenaide did not provide any benchmark results using a 4.8 GHz OC session, it would have simply shown smaller than expected performance uplift.

 

[DrMrLordX]

But not other proof then purely text/rumors as far as i can see ? Whole story sounds a little bit fishy..

Point is, it set that target, and it very well could have reached it in ST workloads. Unless AMD does something to limit the AGESA releases for AM4, it's probable that correctly-tuned PBO could set higher targets for Vermeer-X as well.

 

[deasd]

As I mentioned 5800X3D which is a consumer product is more of a experimental product rather than grabbing share from competitor.
But as for the OC features removing... I thought it's just being LOCKED multiplier...? Would AMD also going to lock everything related to Overclock, that said not only multiplier but also RAM, Bus speed? That sounds infeasible...

 

[igor_kavinski]

5800X3D may turn out to be the most exciting-in-theory/most-boring-in-practice CPU in the Ryzen family so far.

 

[LightningZ71]

For those pointing out that AMD has L3 caches that currently exceed 4.5Ghz in volume production, you need to realize that the process used for the stacked L3 cache is not exactly the same as the ones used for the CCDs. AMD stated publicly that they use a cache density optimized version of the N7 process to achieve greater cache density on the stacked L3 die, fitting 64MB in a space slightly larger than the 32MB on the CCD. There was likely a trade-off made with respect to maximum reliably achievable frequency of the L3 cache in making that decision. It was a wise one when you consider that the target market for the project was Milan-X and that the 5800X3d is a prestige product. I think that, with a solid cooling setup, a well tuned 5900x will likely prove to be almost even with respect to gaming performance while being significantly better in highly multi-threaded tasks. I'm still waiting for benchmarks, but, I'm leaning towards the 5900x being a better value for the long term if you already have a good X570 board. IF you don't, I think that the Alder Lake platform is marginally superior AT THE MOMENT.

 

[Hitman928]

I think that the temperature issue may not be a non-issue there.
Yes, cache may be the culprit but, AMD already realized on-die caches which can operate at frequencies >4,5GHz, even in mobile environment (Rembrandt reaches 4,9GHz turbo, Vermeer has been seen boosting to 5+GHz single core turbo without OC). With Vermeer-X we have stacked dies and that means that indeed the connection by TSV while being close to an on-die interface it will have for sure some limitation, but we have also a thermal interface between the two stacked dies. Which is a not trivial issue as AMD is adding the cache die thermal resistance, plus the resistance of said interface to the mix. So this too is contributing to the decision to limit frequency.

The stacked V-cache is using a different library and maybe even different process tweaks that allows it to have roughly 2x the density of the on chip cache. These kind of changes could easily be limiting the max frequency of the stacked V-cache. Hopefully we get a deep dive from a reviewer or more info from AMD themselves at some point.

Edit: @LightningZ71 just beat me to it.

 

[leoneazzurro]

Interesting, do you have any data about the process used? Also, I did not want to entirely dismiss the idea that cache is frequency limited, instead I wanted to say that thermals are having a big influence, too.

 

[biostud]

Gimmick or no gimmick. If you don't like the product, don't buy it. If you do, buy it. I can't really see any downside to giving consumers an extra choice for the AM4 platform. For me it is en enthusiast product like the intel KS line except this processor gets extra performance from huge amount of cache while Intel push frequencies. Same for intel, if you want top of the pop, buy the KS line, if not get one of the other processors.

 

[deasd]

Regarding OCing Zen3D, sound like AMD has very different policy:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1501890684206432257

 

[Hitman928]

Interesting, do you have any data about the process used? Also, I did not want to entirely dismiss the idea that cache is frequency limited, instead I wanted to say that thermals are having a big influence, too.

AMD didn't really share any details other than it allowed them to get the roughly 2x cache density in the V-cache.

 

[JoeRambo]

There is one thing in CPU having no overclockability at all. Another is having a hard wall in scaling. Luck of draw can move that wall by a hundred or so mhz. Removing OC option on what should be ultimate enthusiast CPU on AM4 is disgraceful and disgusting action by AMD.

 

[Makaveli]

There is one thing in CPU having no overclockability at all. Another is having a hard wall in scaling. Luck of draw can move that wall by a hundred or so mhz. Removing OC option on what should be ultimate enthusiast CPU on AM4 is disgraceful and disgusting action by AMD.

lol disagraceful and disgusting such colorful wording. Why does this have you up in your feelings so much?

 

[nicalandia]

There is one thing in CPU having no overclockability at all. Another is having a hard wall in scaling. Luck of draw can move that wall by a hundred or so mhz. Removing OC option on what should be ultimate enthusiast CPU on AM4 is disgraceful and disgusting action by AMD.

They are about to release the Gaming King CPU and you got your feathers ruffled? OC is Dead. It's been dead for quite a while now. Intel and AMD have become expert at binning their own CPU.

Silicon Lottery Store For PreBinned CPUs shuts Down

You probably can remember Silicon Lottery, a store where you can purchase CPUs that have been binned and guaranteed for overclocking. Well, it is closing shop unfortunately....

www.guru3d.com