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Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: alchemize
[ . . . nonsense deleted . . . ]

So being a simpleton is a parallel? So Bowfinger = Hitler?
No, but alchemize is still a pompous twit.

Why don't you run along and write your marvelous essay on the parrallels between Hitler and fundamentalist Islam. Some of the grown-ups would like to discuss Zebo's post. I, for one, am looking forward to burnedout's analysis since he seems to be able to set partisan politics aside and focus on the accuracy of the article.

The point you just can't get is that we aren't concluding Bush == Hitler. We're noticing what appear to be striking parallels between the events and actions that put Hitler where he was and some of the events and actions associated with GWBush. For those who are open-minded, there are potential lessons to be learned so we do not repeat the mistakes of the past.

It is probably an unnecessary intellectual exercise. I don't believe Bush is a Hitler-wannabe. I do fear he lusts for power like most politicians and he associates with people who might relish the role and might be influential enough to push us in that direction. If we don't understand how Hitler got where he was, how can we tell if we're headed down a similar path?

In short, if this exercise doesn't interest you, bug off and stop crapping in the thread. Why are you so unwilling to let the rest of us discuss this?


 
Nov 11, 2003
92
0
0
I'm with Bowfinger on this one. I want to see your well-crafted essay on the parallels between islamic fundamentalism and nazi germany alchemize. Until then, Im interested in what Burn comes up with. He seems to be able to approach this topic with some objectivity.

Billy
 

B00ne

Platinum Member
May 21, 2001
2,168
1
0
Originally posted by: alchemizeThat's such bullsh1t. The majority of the germans welcomed Hitler and his brethren with open arms. As did many countries in Europe.



Nope, Hitler never won a majority. Majorities were fabricated, by prohibiting other parties... and with the help of this Reichstagsbrand and the following laws (orders, whatever since they rally were no laws) ...
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
No time for an essay...I'm sure someone out there has written a good one. I'll just use good old fashioned bullet points.

Striking similarities/parallels between radical islam and nazisim:

1) Hatred of Jews. Duh.
2) Using youth as a military weapon
3) Fusing of "the church" and "the state". Using state controlled media to spread the message of hate.
4) A belief in "predestined greatness" and racial superiority
5) Applying "symbology" to their cause
6) Applying an authority that defines all social aspects of life
7) A belief that they've been oppressed by the rest of the world
8) Brutal economic conditions
9) Using paramilitary population to suppress dissent
10) Persecution of those who aren't in the "correct" category. Gays/mental invalids/gypsies

There's a few. A different animal, but has some parallels.


I've already addressed several of the innacurate ponts of the article (i.e. Hindenburg signed the decree, legislation never had a say in it).

B00ne you are correct, Hitler never won a majority vote in elections. He did win a majority vote in the reichstag that granted him his dictatorial powers. Nazi's got 44% of the March 5th vote. It was the plurality of the reichstag. With the Nazi party and the Nationalist party he had a majority.

 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
0
I just finished parts of a book titled "Hitler's Germany : Origins, Interpretations, Legacies" by Roderick Stackelberg; London, New York, 2002.

Had the author of the essay in question included material from this particular book, his piece could be even more convincing.

Consider this:

Page 122: "Industrialists worked closely with the regime and exercised considerable influence over economic policy."

Again, page 122: "Industrial profits greatly outpaced wage and salary increases and the rise in the general standard of living. Whereas wages and salaries increased by 49 per cent between 1933 and 1937 (and farm income by 33 per cent), profits in trade and industry rose by 88 per cent."

Page 125: "The Nazis effectively suppressed the independent labor movement, but for practical reasons they did not move to curtail the economic power of big business."

Page 129: "The Nazis also waged a campaign against contraception and birth control. Abortion, already restricted in the Weimar era, was now limited even more. Only a woman whose life was medically certified to be in danger was legally permitted to obtain an abortion."

Bear in mind that I consider myself a right-leaning moderate.

I'll comment more on this subject tomorrow after the game.

<edit>double pasted a sentence</edit>
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
0
More from the same book mentioned in my earlier post. Moonie will love these:

Page 96: Upper- and upper-middle-class voters supported the Nazis in disproportionate numbers, as did rural and small-town residents in the Protestant areas of Germany.

Page 132: "They inveighed against the cult of liberal individualism, which had supposedly led to over-specialization and the development of a one-sided Gehirnmensch (brain person) with no true connection to the community."


 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
0
My apologies for not following through on the eval yet. I temporarily skipped the second paragraph and completed the third paragraph. The opening paragraph seems inconsequential to the central idea, in my opinion. Since school is out until January, I'll try to address one or two paragraphs per day/evening. Portions of this essay are rather complex and require some time. I have access to much research material.

But the warnings of investigators were ignored at the highest levels, in part because the government was distracted; the man who claimed to be the nation's leader had not been elected by a majority vote and the majority of citizens claimed he had no right to the powers he coveted. He was a simpleton, some said, a cartoon character of a man who saw things in black-and-white terms and didn't have the intellect to understand the subtleties of running a nation in a complex and internationalist world. His coarse use of language - reflecting his political roots in a southernmost state - and his simplistic and often-inflammatory nationalistic rhetoric offended the aristocrats, foreign leaders, and the well-educated elite in the government and media. And, as a young man, he'd joined a secret society with an occult-sounding name and bizarre initiation rituals that involved skulls and human bones.
Indeed, Hitler was not "elected" by majority vote. There were two presidential elections in early 1932. No candidate captured a majority of the votes at the first election on March 13, although Hindenburg came the closest at 49 percent. Therefore, a second election was held on April 10th. Over 83 percent of the eligible voters turned out at both polls. The second election resulted in Hindenburg winning re-election and, at the age of 84, collecting 53 percent of the popular vote.

Hitler wasn't a popular choice of the people and, as a matter of fact, considered an extremist by many Germans at that particular time. "The Social Democrats mobilized the various phases of their movement into a so-called Eiserne Front, which adopted as one of its slogans, 'Not for love of Hindenburg, but to defeat Hitler.'" There was concern among many Germans back then that if Hitler were elected, a dictatorship would ensue.

Reference: Childs, Harwood L.(Princeton University), "Foreign Governments and Politics: The German Presidental Election of 1932"; The American Political Science Review, Vol. 26, No. 3. (Jun., 1932), pp. 486-496

Elections for the German Reichstag, which in this case was comparable to our U.S. Congress, were held on July 31, 1932. The NSDAP captured 37.4 percent of the vote and increased their number of seats from 110 to 230. Social Democrats took 24.3 percent and lost 3 seats to 133. Communists and Center both captured 14.3 and 12.2 percent of the vote, respectively. The largest gains were, however, by the NSDAP.

Reference: Jerome G. Kerwin, "The German Reichstag Elections of July 31, 1932"; The American Political Science Review, Vol. 26, No. 5. (Oct., 1932), pp. 921-926.

Another Reichstag election followed in November of 1932 that resulted in the NSDAP losing some seats. The reason for this temporary loss of support can be traced to Hitler's refusal in joining a coalition that supported the government.

From a standpoint of continuity, the German Chancellory was a qualified catastrophe during the early 1930s. First, Heinrich Br&uuml;ning served in the position for just over two years before resigning. Following Br&uuml;ning was Franz von Papen who served for just over six months. Papen was replaced by Hindenburg with Kurt von Schleicher. Schleicher lasted a scant 7 weeks before Papen convinced Hindenburg that Hitler should be appointed to the post. Schleicher was a "monarchist" or aristocrat. Br&uuml;ning worked as a university professor in the US after fleeing Germany, by the way.

We should remember that the period after the end of WWI until 1933, when Hitler assumed power, was one of enormous unrest in Germany. Aside from the humiliation invoked by the Treaty of Versailles, hyperinflation, unemployment and the Great Depression; German Communists and National Socialists continually battled each other politically and, in some cases, physically, during the 1920s and early 30s, particularly in Bavaria. The German Communists received considerable support from Stalin's USSR and were the largest communist party outside of the Soviet Union at that point in time.

re: "reflecting his political roots in a southernmost state". We must also remember that this "southernmost state" is Austria, Hitler's birthplace. Germany annexed Austria in 1938. It was in pre-WWI Vienna that Hitler cultivated much of his early political and social ideology.

I assume that this "secret society with an occult-sounding name" refers to the Thule-Gesellschaft or "Thule Society". Actually, I perfer "Thule Association" in this context. Hitler was not a member of this "society", but rather intimately associated with many key members. The "Thule Gesellschaft" was founded in late 1918. Some influences of the Thule-Gesellschaft can be traced back to 1912.

A few principle core Thule members were: Dietrich Eckart (a publicist), Karl Haushofer (political scientist and former Brigadier General during WWI), Wilhelm Frick (member of the war cabinet after 1939), Rudolf Hess (#3 in the Third Reich chain of command), Julius Streicher (published Der St&uuml;rmer, the propaganda paper), Alfred Rosenberg (minister for occupied countries in the east after 1941) and Hans Frank (Governor-General of Poland from 1939 on). With the exception of Hess; Frick, Streicher, Rosenberg and Frank were executed after the N&uuml;rnberg war crimes trials. Old man Hess was incarcerated at Berlin-Spandau under joint US/USSR/British/French jurisdiction for more than 40 years until his death in 1987. He survived them all.

The Thule Society is largely considered as extremely anti-communist. In fact, seven Thule members were shot by communists on April 30, 1919.

It has been argued by some scholars that the DAP was heir to the ideological traditions of the rabidly anti-semetic Thule Society, as well as the expansionist goals of big business and military expressed by other groups. Hitler and his associates more or less consolidated these ideologies into the NSDAP. It should be noted that a dagger, not "skulls and human bones", symbolized the society.

Wikipedia says the following about Thule: "The Thule Society has documented ties with the Skull and Bones Society, of which George W. Bush is a member." "Skull and Bones", the Yale association, was founded in 1832. I have not seen any "documented ties" with the Thule Society. This is not to say that a such connection doesn't exist.

References:

Zoller, Regina, "Thule-Gesellschaft"; <http://www.relinfo.ch/thule/info.html>, Switzerland, 1994 (in German)

Phelps, Reginald H., "'Before Hitler Came': Thule Society and Germanen Orden"; The Journal of Modern History, Vol. 35, No. 3. (Sep., 1963), pp. 245-261

Hatheway, Jay, "The Pre-1920 Origins of the National Socialist German Workers' Party"; Journal of Contemporary History, Vol. 29, No. 3. (Jul., 1994), pp. 443-462

In evaluating this paragraph, the author is correct in many of his assertions regarding Hitler's rise to power in the government. The biggest problem I have with the paragraph is whether or not the "secret society" he refers to is actually the Thule-Gesellschaft. If so then I think he may believe a bit too much in some of the so-called "occult authors" who have written extensively on this subject.

The obvious question for the reader is if an objective parallel between both leaders can be drawn. In other words, I can't/won't comment about Bush, but rather verify the validity of the author's allegations concerning Hitler. If new and relavent material surfaces, like that found in my two previous posts, I'll include it.

<edit>Let me add two points that I left out. Hitler did not attain German citizenship until 1932, before the presidential elections. Hindenburg, the Reichspr&auml;sident, was originally intended to be a figurehead in the government. However, he ruled by decree because of the political landscape so prevalent at the time.</edit>
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,231
5,807
126
Burnedout: No need to apologize, you seem to be the only one actually checking out the authenticity of the article, which I appreciate.

Regarding the Occult and Hitler, I know many books have been written on the subject, but I don't know if I believe any of them. Most agrees that he is a horrible figure and as such Conspiracy Theorists have had an easy target in which to spin a wild tale without worry of criticism for accuracy or overt harshness. Of such conspiracies, some have been written by religious folk evoking Satanism for effect. Another conspiracy theory tried to equate Naziism to Communism, or more accurately, tried to remove the stain from the "Right" to the "Left". Yet another theory, written within the last 10 years, tried to equate Nazziism with Homosexuality, claiming that Homosexuals tried to gain power through the Nazi Party. Each of these theories were espoused by people with an agenda and often they were given an easy time simply because Hitler and Naziism were unworthy of a Defence.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: sandorski
Burnedout: No need to apologize, you seem to be the only one actually checking out the authenticity of the article, which I appreciate.
Ditto (if you'll pardon the expression.) Great work!


 

P.O.W.

Senior member
Feb 8, 2000
359
1
0
Originally posted by: sandorski
The parallels are disturbing.

Yes they are. I mean the unemployement in the U.S. has hovered around 6%, what was it in Germany in the 1930's?
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,231
5,807
126
Originally posted by: P.O.W.
Originally posted by: sandorski
The parallels are disturbing.

Yes they are. I mean the unemployement in the U.S. has hovered around 6%, what was it in Germany in the 1930's?

By the time Hitler began invading his neighbours, German Unemployment was probably lower. Not that it weakens the parallel much.
 

nutxo

Diamond Member
May 20, 2001
6,789
467
126
Originally posted by: P.O.W.
Originally posted by: sandorski
The parallels are disturbing.

Yes they are. I mean the unemployement in the U.S. has hovered around 6%, what was it in Germany in the 1930's?

5% is considered 0 so 6% would be 1% actual unemployment?

Not a jibe or anything, actually asking.

 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
0
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: P.O.W.
Originally posted by: sandorski
The parallels are disturbing.

Yes they are. I mean the unemployement in the U.S. has hovered around 6%, what was it in Germany in the 1930's?

By the time Hitler began invading his neighbours, German Unemployment was probably lower. Not that it weakens the parallel much.
I read some interesting material covering this topic.

Not long after Hitler took control, he instituted a work program similar to the CCC that Roosevelt had initiated. The pay was extremely low and accomodations were frugal. Based on one account, there is evidence that this program falsely inflated the employment figures in Hitler's favor. Tonight, I'll provide a more specific explanation.

During the war, as we are all now aware, Germany extensively utilized children, POWs and slave labor to address the labor shortage. At one point in 1944, I think the number of foreign laborers working in Germany exceeded 7 million.
 

rjain

Golden Member
May 1, 2003
1,475
0
0
Originally posted by: alchemize

I recognize the Hitler-like threat in our world today. It is called Islamic Fundamentalism. Arabs today are germans of 1930. If you want to draw paralells, start with the arab and islamic world. You'll find plenty.

Guess what? Invading Iraq just destroyed the single pillar of opposition to Islamic fundamentalism in the Islamic Arab world. Looks like we're attacking the enemies of the neo-Hitlers.
 

rjain

Golden Member
May 1, 2003
1,475
0
0
Originally posted by: alchemize

So being a simpleton is a parallel? So Bowfinger = Hitler?
I see. So analyzing history and trying to see where we fit in what has happened in the past is the work of a simpleton? Then what exactly is the description of someone who looks at history and tries to deny any similarity to some historical event, even when no one is claiming that similarity?
 

rjain

Golden Member
May 1, 2003
1,475
0
0
6% unemployment is about average for the US. In the 80s, it fluctuated as high as 11%.
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
0
Taking a break from the paragraphs, here is an interesting view written by John Weitz in 1994, the author of "Hitler's Diplomat: The Life and Times of Joachim von Ribbentrop"

"There are unending theories about the Reichstag fire. All were aired, many discredited. The most likely should have been that the Nazis set it themselves, by way of a secret passage from Hermann G&ouml;ring's newly refurbished palace. Berlin's Fire Chief, Walter Gempp, who probably knew the whole story, was arrested and then found dead in his cell. Hanussen, the nightclub clairvoyant and Nazi confidant, who had quasi-predicted the fire, and who was said to have recruited the deranged Dutch Communist who confessed it, was also found murdered.

What did matter was that the Reichstag fire set off the fear of a Communist coup, which allowed Hitler to demand restrictive new laws, which were then immediately passed by the Parliament and confirmed by President von Hindenburg. These laws marked the end of democracy in Germany. There was surprisingly little opposition to their passage. Germans wanted to give their newly installed rulers the chance to clean up the mess. In return, German citizens were willing to relinquish most of their precious rights with the new Hitlerian "laws for the protection of the state."

This "secret passage" is mentioned during the trial of Marinus van der Lubbe in 1933. The New York Times published numerous reports about the trial that year.

The NYT also published two related articles in 1946. The first details a letter written in 1934 by Ernst Kruse to Paul von Hindenburg about his complicity in the fire. Kruse was supposedly a "Storm Trooper" who took part in the act of arson. Marinus van der Lubbe, he contends, was indeed in the Reichstag that night under the guidance of Hauptman Ernst Roehm, head of the "Storm Troopers". While van der Lubbe set one small fire, the other Nazis set the rest. Allied intelligence officers came into possession of this letter either during the war or shortly thereafter.

During the Nuremburg War Crimes Trials, Hermann G&ouml;ring made a related admission. From the NYT dated January 16, 1946:

"An admission by Hermann G&ouml;ring that he accused the Communists of responsibility for the famous Reichstag fire in 1933 without any evidence beyond one of Adolf Hitler's hunches, was read into record today at the trial of the German war-criminals.

In a prison interrogation last October, G&ouml;ring said, as the excuse for his precipitate action, that 'Communist activity was extremely strong and our Government as such was not very secure.'"

<edit>small edit on the grammer</edit>
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
0
Deja Vu - 70 years later. (While reading the headlines, think of some of the posts and sources here on this board that comment on various subjects)

From the New York Times, April 28, 1933:

The Article in the Guardian

Special Cable to THE NEW YORK TIMES

LONDON, April 27. - The Manchester Guardian has raised a diplomatic storm by publishing from a "special correspondent in Germany" what it describes as the "Nationalist version" of the Reichtags fire.

"A confidential memorandum on the events leading to the fire," the correspondent says, "is circulating in Germany. The terror makes any open mention or discussion of it impossible."

[...]

According to the correspondent's version chief Nazi agitators Adolf Hitler, Hermann Wilhelm Goering and Dr. Paul Joseph Goebbels assembled in Berlin on Feb. 27 "awaiting their fire." The dispatch then proceeds:

"The Reichtag is connected with the Speaker's residence by a subterranean passage. Through this, according to the memorandum, emissaries of Goering (the Speaker) entered the Reichstag. Each of these emissaries, wearing civilian clothes, went to his assigned place and in a few minutes sufficient inflammable matter was distributed throughout the building....."

From the Mar 2, 1933 New York Times:

FRENCH BLAME NAZIS FOR REICHSTAG FIRE

Papers Regard It as a Crude Excuse to Crush Opposition Before the Election

Wireless to THE NEW YORK TIMES

PARIS, March 1. - With growing anxiety, the French are watching events across the Rhine and Chancellor Hitler's repressive measures, in which they see a determined intention to achieve a Facist dictatorship.

France, judging by today's press, even seems distinctly inclined to blame the Nazis themselves for the fire that wrecked the Reichstag Building, and sees in it simply a crude excuse on Herr Hitler's part to crush the Oppostion just before the elections.......

Kind of eerie, eh?
 

steveeast112

Banned
Dec 22, 2002
230
0
0
One positive thing about Adolf Hitler was that he was probably one of the most brilliant public speakers the world has ever known. Bush can't even come close. Bill Clinton gets a bit closer, but still not quite there. Hitler used his oratory skills for evil, but still was a captivating speaker nevertheless.
 

conehead433

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 2002
5,566
899
126
Well I had a photo link here, but it linked to a site that was only accessible by me. I'll try to find another site where I can put it on the net and it can be seen by all.

OK I found a hosting site that should allow others to view it. So check out this picture. Maybe a little too much for coincidence.


Well that site didn't allow others either. Anyone know of a website you can upload pictures to that will enable others to view them. PM me please.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,231
5,807
126
Originally posted by: conehead433
Well I had a photo link here, but it linked to a site that was only accessible by me. I'll try to find another site where I can put it on the net and it can be seen by all.

OK I found a hosting site that should allow others to view it. So check out this picture. Maybe a little too much for coincidence.


Well that site didn't allow others either. Anyone know of a website you can upload pictures to that will enable others to view them. PM me please.

If it's Bush doing the Nazi salute, don't bother, it's been done too many times already.
 
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