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Palek

Senior member
Jun 20, 2001
937
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0
JohnnyReb, you obviously have not been around here long enough to know it makes absolutely no sense to argue with Elledan. He spends a great deal of his time roaming the boards, foaming at the mouth, looking for someone to devour. As soon as he sees/hears any of the words Bible/God/Christ/faith/believe, you can bet he will be there to totally ruin the chances of people having any meaningful discussions. (I can already see a comment coming from my dear Elledan: "Discussing the existence of God is meaningless since there is proof he does not exist.") His arguments always follow the pattern you see here. It goes something like this:

1. Victim says, "I believe in God."/"I have a personal relationship with God."/"I experience God everyday."/"We cannot disprove the existence of god(s)."

2. Elledan jumps in, with something along these lines:
"Faith is illogical."/"Believers are stupid."/"There is no evidence that God exists. Therefore you are a fool." or, this most recent one, "There is a 0% chance that a superior being exists."

3. Poor Victim asks Elledan to present the sources he bases his absolute statements on.

4. Elledan ignores request, continues attacking Victim, through totally unprovoked insults and name-calling.

5. Victim tries to get some sense into the guy, but to no avail. Victim learns his/her lesson and gives up.

Sorry, Elledan, please try not to get offended by my little analysis. I am trying to help JohnnyReb as much as I am trying to help you. Seeing that you do not mind alienating anyone you come across with your biting and condescending attitude, I have come to the conclusion that you must be one of the most miserable and bitter people on AT and we should all try to avoid aggravating you any further. Your only goal here seems to be making enemies and then slaughtering them, so we should all just get out of your way and avoid the massacre.

JohnnyReb, to restore your faith in the new generation, I now bow my head to show my respect to you.

<---Bows head.
 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
8,880
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<< 1. Victim says, "I believe in God."/"I have a personal relationship with God."/"I experience God everyday."/"We cannot disprove the existence of god(s)."

2. Elledan jumps in, with something along these lines:
"Faith is illogical."
>>

Nope, blind faith is, i.e., faith without evidence, often referred to as superstition.


<< /"Believers are stupid." >>

I don't call anyone 'stupid' for whatever reason.


<< /"There is no evidence that God exists. Therefore you are a fool." >>

Why does that make someone a fool? Misguided, perhaps, but a fool? Do you like to victimize yourself or something?


<< or, this most recent one, "There is a 0% chance that a superior being exists." >>

Ouch....

If you're going to quote me, at least do it properly. I said that there is zero chance that supernatural life exists, because:

a) we have no evidence that supernatural life exists.
b) we have no way to calculate the chance that it might exist.



<< 3. Poor Victim asks Elledan to present the sources he bases his absolute statements on. >>

Logic.



<< 4. Elledan ignores request, continues attacking Victim, through totally unprovoked insults and name-calling. >>

I challenge you find even one occassion where I started the insults and namecalling.



<< 5. Victim tries to get some sense into the guy, but to no avail. Victim learns his/her lesson and gives up. >>

Well, sorry for trying to teach you logic. You could have said earlier that you are incapable of comprehending logic.

Palek,

Do YOU have evidence that supernatural life exists? If not, I want to kindly ask you to remove yourself from this thread.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,296
6,355
126
As a person interested in both science and the question of the persistance of the 'God Problem', I would be very interested in a scientific investigation of the phenomena of what's happening with so many people speaking to gods. From what I would suggest is the rational approach, the phenomenon points more to properties of the human mind perhaps, than to the actual reality of such gods. But if the human mind consistently produces an illusion of gods, than it would strike me as incumbent on anybody who wished to explore his humanness in a scientific manner, (to know what it means to be human), to seek means to experience this directly too. I would liken this say to studying wine, not with a spectorscope, but by tasting it. The phenomenon, I would suggest, may be an indicator of a higher rather poorly understood, functionality or human potential.
 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
8,880
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Moonbeam, research has shown that a certain area in the Human brain, referred to as the 'spiritual' center, is responsible for so-called 'spiritual' experiences. By stimulating this area, subjects felt a hand touching their shoulder, a sudden feeling of peacefulness and various other experiences.

This is only the beginning of our understanding of 'spiritualism'.
 

Palek

Senior member
Jun 20, 2001
937
0
0
Elledan, my intention was not to give a word-to-word account of your arguments, simply to show how they generally go. I think I got that right.

Oh, and you really have no idea what you just did, huh? You just demonstrated another below-the-belt method you often resort to with people who are trying to get a message through to you. Instead of just replying to my post, all you did was picking my sentences to pieces, instead of considering what I was trying to say. You are not replying to my post, you are finding irrelevant mistakes. This is not how intelligent people carry a conversation.



<< Do YOU have evidence that supernatural life exists? If not, I want to kindly ask you to remove yourself from this thread. >>



Okey-dokey, so you are king here now? Tell me, dear Elledan, first of all who gave you the authority to tell people to get out of threads you did not even start? You cannot even do that with your own threads (although I know you always try your best to rid the world of ATOT of those blind believers).

Second, I did not see any warning at the beginning of the thread saying, "All participants are required to present evidence proving the existence of supernatural life." Or... Hang on... Did I miss it?


Clearly you are pretty angry with me and had to do your best not to completely lash out at me, but you still made the mistake of telling me to "get the heck out of here". You did try to hold it back though, gotta give you that, the word "kindly" in there made it so much more bearable. You aren't completely void of emotions after all, I guess.

You know what? I would love to meet you in person and find out who you really are. I have a feeling that beneath the arrogant, hateful, know-it-all Elledan is really just a normal guy. A guy who has not had much luck with friendship and love and has turned bitter. Have you given up on love? Is that why you are putting on this Vulcan-like state of logic and non-emotion? Are you protecting yourself from getting hurt? You have got to realize that even though you decided to discard emotions as illogical, you still have them and are only hurting yourself by ignoring them. You are an emotional creature, no matter how much you want to be controlled by logic. You are actually failing without realizing. Most of your posts are in fact very emotional, they just tend to have a lot of "blind hatred" and not much of anything else.

Let me tell you where else you fail to be logical. If you were to make the best effort at convincing another emotional creature that their blind faith was illogical, what do you think the most logical way would be to achieve your goal? By telling them how you think they are foolish? That goes completely against logic, for if you used logic, you would know that to such a statement the response of an emotional creature would be anger and resentment. You conduct your arguments against people of (blind) faith in a very illlogical fashion.

Please read my post in its entirety, and just for a second consider that what I am saying has some value. All too often you dismiss people as unintelligent and unworthy of your attention. Maybe what I am saying is really of no value to you, but I am trying to show you that I care about you, you should at least consider that. If you continue being the way you are, one day you will wake up realizing that you pushed away everyone who showed some genuine interest in you.

I sincerely hope that you are a very different person in real life - for your sake.

<EDIT>Typos and a few additions...</EDIT>
 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
8,880
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Palek,

If you think that I deny my emotions, you are very mistaken.

You want to understand me? Good luck, because I don't even understand myself.

I appear to be cold and devoid of emotions, because I control my emotions. If any of my posts appear to be emotional, it's because of frustration, which is an emotion which is very hard to control.

I trust my own logic. I use it to investigate, to explore this universe and everything in it. If my logic is flawed, then it would mean that the person I am, and everything I've done is a mere failure. I can not accept that.

Without faith, one can not exist. There must be some kind of foundation from which one starts building, since it's not possible to build something without foundation.

This foundation can change once one acquires more knowledge. The only constant remains logic. Logic can not be explained using any language. It's beyond the reach of all of them, but logic and insight (based on knowledge) form the foundation on which I've build everything.

Those who tell me that their own foundation, consisting out of mere instinct and insight based on lack of knowledge (superstition), or ignorance is superior to my own are telling me that I should betray everything I've build my existance on, to destroy everything I've learned. I can not do this if there's no motivation to do so. Why should I give up logic?

I don't deny my emotions and desires, but I never let them influence my judgement. They have their use, but often they're better left unused.

My whole existance is based on one motivation: to seek knowledge, information, and reach the ultimate insight. I can not rest until I've reached this complete understanding.

I do not tolerate subjectivity in myself, or in others. Objective judgement, although not fully attainable, is desirable.

Nay, even now I don't fully understand myself, but I do know that I'm more than just a 'normal' person. This is not arrogance, but a conclusion based on years of information on myself.
 

Josephus

Senior member
Feb 11, 2002
205
0
0


<< My whole existance is based on one motivation: to seek knowledge, information, and reach the ultimate insight. I can not rest until I've reached this complete understanding. >>



Knowledge + Understanding = Wisdom

You seek wisdom, which is commendable, yet you appear to easily discount the ideals of others. This is a stumbling block in the search for wisdom,
to gain an insight of facts and not also pursue a respect for the value and role of alternate points of view. I wish you well in your search for
wisdom....
 

JohnnyReb

Banned
Feb 20, 2002
212
0
0
Science Resurrects God
by Jim Holt
Copyright 1997 Dow Jones & Co., Inc.
Reprinted with permission of
The Wall Street Journal (December 24, 1997)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Scientists are hard to work with on a committee, an academic friend once told me, because they often change their minds when they see new evidence. I was reminded of this a few months ago when I saw a survey in the journal Nature. It revealed that 40% of American physicists, biologists and mathematicians believe in God--and not just some metaphysical abstraction, but a deity who takes an active interest in our affairs and hears our prayers: the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

This percentage, it turns out, is exactly the same as it was in 1916, when an identical poll was taken. Strikingly, as the nation's intelligentsia has turned toward atheism, many in the scientific community have stuck to theism. They apparently haven't changed their minds about whether God exists.

But should they have? In the 19th century, religious orthodoxy endured one blow after another at the hands of science. Geologists fatally undermined the literal truth of Genesis, making a mockery of Bishop Ussher's calculation (arrived at by totting up the "begats" in the Bible) that the creation took place in 4004 B.C. Chemists demystified life by synthesizing its organic molecules in the lab. Darwin and Wallace's theory of evolution seemed to banish divine providence from the sphere of nature once and for all, replacing it with the groping of blind chance. "There is no God and the ape is our Adam," cried a vexed Cardinal Manning.

Matter Is Fundamental?

The quasiscientific 19th-century school of thought known as materialism, which held that matter is the fundamental and final reality, excluded the possibility of an immortal soul. Man was a machine; the brain produced consciousness as the liver secreted bile. And if matter was eternal, as the laws of conservation suggested, it made no sense to suppose that a creator could have brought the material universe into existence ex nihilo at some point in the past.

Newton had thought that the deity's role was to make occasional adjustments to the solar system lest it run down, an idea that Voltaire and the other philosophes of the Enlightenment found congenial. But Newton's 19th-century successors demonstrated that a clockwork universe was actually self-sustaining; no divine help was required to keep it operating smoothly. When Napoleon asked Laplace where God fit into his equations of celestial mechanics, the great physicist coolly replied, "Sir, I had no need of that hypothesis."

It was this new spirit of scientific rationality that allowed Nietzsche to declare that God was dead. By the turn of the century, skepticism about the claims of faith had become the norm among thinking types, including scientists. As far as the typical intellectual was concerned, religion was at best a socially necessary fiction. At worst, it was dangerous humbug--the opiate of the masses.

But if the scientific findings of the 19th century eroded belief in God, those of the 20th century have had just the opposite evidential force, although few intellectuals outside science have come to terms with this. Traditional arguments for the existence of God, which seemed outmoded a century ago, have had new life breathed into them.

Take the "cosmological argument." Why does the universe exist at all? Philosophers of an Aristotelian kidney reasoned that it must have an external cause--a creator, namely God. By the 19th century, the cosmological argument had ceased to be taken seriously. If the universe has always been around, the revised thinking went, then maybe its existence was just a brute fact requiring no further explanation.

In this century, however, it has been discovered--much to the surprise of scientists like Einstein--that the universe hasn't always been around. Rather, it suddenly exploded into being some 15 billion years ago in a flash of light and energy. The abrupt emergence of a world out of nothingness with the big bang bears an uncanny resemblance to the Genesis command: Fiat lux. Contemporary physics thus proves what St. Thomas Aquinas insisted could never be demonstrated philosophically: that the universe had a beginning. "Therefore," observed Pope Pius XII in a 1951 encyclical, "there is a creator. Therefore God exists." Or, at the very least, atheists have some explaining to do.

Then there is the "argument from design"--the claim that nature is so wondrously fashioned that it must have been the handiwork of a Divine Artificer. The wing of the eagle, the shape of the orchid, the swiftness of the antelope: all these weren't produced by a beneficent deity, submitted 19th-century Darwinists, but by random mutation and natural selection. Since then critics of a religious bent have sought to show that the theory of evolution is false or incomplete. The biochemist Michael J. Behe has argued that gradualist Darwinian processes could never have given rise to the intricate molecular machines of life. Meanwhile, inside the Darwinist camp itself, "radicals" like Richard Dawkins and "pluralists" like Stephen J. Gould go at it hammer and tongs over the basic logic of the theory. Will Darwinism ever be proved wrong? The current debate is one of the most confusing I have ever tried to follow; at times it seems that no one can agree on anything, and that everyone thinks everyone else is a fool, if not a knave.

Yet even if Darwin's theory is fundamentally sound--as I am convinced it is--that doesn't mean the design argument for God's existence is defunct. For in recent decades, physicists have noticed an astonishing thing about the fundamental laws of nature. The 20 or so parameters they contain--numbers governing the strength of gravity, the ratio of the proton's size to the neutron's, and so on--appear to have been fine-tuned so that, against astronomically unfavorable odds, conscious organisms could emerge. Make gravity the slightest bit weaker, and no galaxies suitable for life would have formed; make it the slightest bit stronger and the cosmos would have collapsed upon itself moments after the big bang.

The universe, as the cosmologist Fred Hoyle once remarked, looks like a "put-up job." Who but a Divine Designer could have twiddled with these 20 different "control knobs" until they were pointing at precisely the right values for the full array of life ultimately to appear? ("Design by wholesale is more grand than design by retail," one 19th-century American clergyman presciently commented.) Another conundrum for atheists.

Finally, consider the "argument from consciousness." How could sentience, self-awareness and free will arise in a purely material universe? They couldn't, maintained the 17th-century English philosopher John Locke: Consciousness must have existed from eternity, and the eternal mind must be God. In the 19th and much of the 20th century, this proposition came in for ridicule. When an organism's neural pathways grow sufficiently complex, materialists insist, their firings are somehow accompanied by consciousness. But despite decades of effort by philosophers and neurophysiologists, no one has been able to come up with a remotely plausible explanation of how this happens--how the hunk of gray meat in our skull gives rise to private Technicolor experience. One distinguished commentator on the mind-body problem, Daniel Dennett, author of "Consciousness Explained," has been driven to declare that there is really no such thing as consciousness--we are all zombies, though we're unaware of it.

Even as the "soul" has made a comeback, computer science has helped us imagine how it might be an immaterial and, indeed, immortal thing, separable from the body the way software is separable from the hardware that runs it. And quantum theory, which overthrew Newtonian physics in the first half of this century, has revealed that matter itself has a ghostly, almost magical character. The universe turns out to be more like a thought than like a machine. Which raises a question for atheists: Whose thought?

Far Cry From Kierkegaard

"The more I study science the more I believe in God," Albert Einstein once remarked. Einstein's Supreme Being, it should be noted, was a remote and disinterested one, more or less identifiable with the final laws of physics--a far cry from the God of Kierkegaard and Mother Teresa, the God incarnated under the reign of Augustus as a Galilean craftsman and crucified during the procuratorship of Pontius Pilate in an act of redemption.

Contemporary science, no matter how unsettling it may be to the vulgar atheism of many of today's intellectuals, could never by itself hint at such a deity. Still less could it resolve the perplexity of Evelyn Waugh--who, on his conversion to Catholicism, said, "I believe it all. But what I cannot understand is why God made the world in the first place."



 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
8,880
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<<

<< My whole existance is based on one motivation: to seek knowledge, information, and reach the ultimate insight. I can not rest until I've reached this complete understanding. >>



Knowledge + Understanding = Wisdom

You seek wisdom, which is commendable, yet you appear to easily discount the ideals of others. This is a stumbling block in the search for wisdom,
to gain an insight of facts and not also pursue a respect for the value and role of alternate points of view. I wish you well in your search for
wisdom....
>>

Everyone here seems to assume that I discount the opinions (ideals) of others and only favour my own opinion/ideals. This assumption is false.

Like I've pointed out, I don't like being subjective. It's a property I almost despise. Discounting other people's opinions would be very subjective and therefore unacceptable.

I always try to understand the reasoning behind someone's opinion/ideal(s). If I find it to be unreasonable/irrational, I reject it.
 

Palek

Senior member
Jun 20, 2001
937
0
0
Elledan, I really liked your last post because I felt like you treated me as an equal, something that you do not always take the effort to do. I felt like you actually took some time to carefully explain yourself to me instead of being short and abrupt. I liked that very much. Thank you!!!

The funny thing is, I am also living my life to make sense of things. There are many things I want to know and understand, and while I find scientific research very interesting, I am also very interested in the human mind/spirit, because I am a social being, and I want to know how other members of my kind work. I want to understand you too!!! And I just gained a little more insight into Elledan's mind!!! I am in no way trying to say that now I know all about you, but I do know more than I did about 30 minutes ago.

I think there is a lot of fun to be had getting to know new people and hearing their ideas - no matter how unusual and far-fetched they might be for me. I try to tolerate people of all kinds of convictions and thinking. I try to be non-confrontational so that I do not lose out on a chance of getting to know someone interesting by alienating them right from the start. I used to be pretty arrogant and get all frustrated when I was not understood or agreed with, but I learned that people simply thought differently from me and I did not definitely need to convince them to think the way I do. Yeah, how boring would it be if I succeeded... I would be surrounded by lots of Paleks. No, I would rather have people who have wacky and strange ideas about the world (actually, I have some pretty wacky ideas too). It is far more entertaining. Plus it fun trying to figure out why they think the way they do.

So in the end, I think that all people should be allowed to have their own ideas. Naturally, if those ideas involve having babies for breakfast, I would want to step in, but as long as we are not hurting each other, we should learn to accept each other as we are, without forcing ourselves on each other. This of course can be quite difficult when you are discussing such things as God and Evolution, but we should all just agree that we will never agree on certain things and leave it at that.

Thanks again for the nice reply!!!
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,296
6,355
126
Elledan, I am aware of some of that research including the powerful feeling that we are not alone, as well as phenomena parallelling abduction senerios. There is also, I believe some work done showing altered brainwave activity in monks entering higher states in meditation. Your point that we are just beginning such understanding, and mine, that it is the tasteing that cannot be divorced from true understanding are, I think, where the emphasis should be.

We have probably though, too many who alread know and too many who think there is nothing to know.
 

Josephus

Senior member
Feb 11, 2002
205
0
0


<< If I find it to be unreasonable/irrational, I reject it. >>



Each person develops their own "truth", I have found that respecting that "truth" is the door to understanding and wisdom. No one has a monopoly
in the market. Life is a paradox and truth is a parable. I feel that if you widen the aspect of your vision the paradox will unravel and the parable will
become less "frustrating".

" The greatest lesson in life is to know that even fools are right sometimes." ~ Winston Churchill
 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
8,880
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<<

<< If I find it to be unreasonable/irrational, I reject it. >>



Each person develops their own "truth", I have found that respecting that "truth" is the door to understanding and wisdom. No one has a monopoly
in the market. Life is a paradox and truth is a parable. I feel that if you widen the aspect of your vision the paradox will unravel and the parable will
become less "frustrating".

" The greatest lesson in life is to know that even fools are right sometimes." ~ Winston Churchill
>>


I realized that, when writing down the part of my post that you quoted, someone would react.

I say I 'reject' it. This does not mean that I discard it. It's more like I store it for possible future reference.

However, one can only make one choice. Only one 'theory' can be the best one, the one for which the most evidence exists.

Can you explain how you choose?
 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
8,880
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<< Elledan, I am aware of some of that research including the powerful feeling that we are not alone, as well as phenomena parallelling abduction senerios. There is also, I believe some work done showing altered brainwave activity in monks entering higher states in meditation. Your point that we are just beginning such understanding, and mine, that it is the tasteing that cannot be divorced from true understanding are, I think, where the emphasis should be.

We have probably though, too many who alread know and too many who think there is nothing to know.
>>


I've developed a thesis which tells us that there are a near-infinite stages of consciousness. I'm currently in the process of preparing experiments to gather data which might prove or disprove this and other thesises I've developed.

Consciousness is a curious thing, but with our current knowledge of neural networks, it's yet too early to make any conclusions regarding it.
 

JohnnyReb

Banned
Feb 20, 2002
212
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Well, sorry for trying to teach you logic. You could have said earlier that you are incapable of comprehending logic.

I trust my own logic. I use it to investigate, to explore this universe and everything in it. If my logic is flawed, then it would mean that the person I am, and everything I've done is a mere failure. I can not accept that.


Elledan,

Once again from the accursed Webster (my only available online source)

Main Entry: log?ic
Pronunciation: 'l&auml;-jik
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English logik, from Middle French logique, from Latin logica, from Greek logikE, from feminine of logikos of reason, from logos reason -- more at LEGEND
Date: 12th century
1 a (1) : a science that deals with the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration : the science of the formal principles of reasoning (2) : a branch or variety of logic <modal logic> <Boolean logic> (3) : a branch of semiotic; especially : SYNTACTICS (4) : the formal principles of a branch of knowledge b (1) : a particular mode of reasoning viewed as valid or faulty (2) : RELEVANCE, PROPRIETY c : interrelation or sequence of facts or events when seen as inevitable or predictable d : the arrangement of circuit elements (as in a computer) needed for computation; also : the circuits themselves
2 : something that forces a decision apart from or in opposition to reason <the logic of war>

With your constant trumpeting of Logic, Logic, I would ask you what system of logic you have studied. This may not be the case, but when many people say Logic what they really mean is that is sound good to them. In another thread, (I believe it was about Gun Control), you repeated that taking the guns out of the hands of the people was just plain common sense. Common sense is that facility that tells us the world is flat.

The problem with depending on logic is that it is very hard to get away from one?s preconceived ideas. When you say that the chance of X existing is 0% because you have no evidence, you are being illogical. What you are doing is stating a premise in absolute terms as an indication of how strongly you feel. It is the old mistake of using common sense as a logical basis.

If you are going to depend on logic, then you need to determine a system that is suitable to the intended end. Mathematical Logic is the only branch that actually fits the bill. Have you ever read Bertrand Russell? He is a philosopher that employed this form of logic to philosophy. His logic is impeccable, but he often has erroneous assumptions.

That?s another problem with a total dependence on logic, all logic is dependent on assumptions, and can never be more valid than these assumptions. You have established your basis as the tiny part of DATA out there that you can accept as real evidence. As such, you are missing the entire IF-THEN formulations. When you work thru IT-THEN?s and the THEN is true, you can start looking at the IF to see if IF is IFF. Proofs are often worked backwards. You are only looking at IF-THEN?s if you already accept the IF. This is illogical.

John

PS At the tender age of 18 it is impossible to have mastered logic. You should see how illogical it is to assume to have mastered a discipline which can be studied at the post doctorate level.
 

JohnnyReb

Banned
Feb 20, 2002
212
0
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Moonbeam, research has shown that a certain area in the Human brain, referred to as the 'spiritual' center, is responsible for so-called 'spiritual' experiences. By stimulating this area, subjects felt a hand touching their shoulder, a sudden feeling of peacefulness and various other experiences.

Elledan,
Now here is a great example of the effect that preconceived opinions has on logic. I just finished reading a large chunk of that study, and what was found is that certain parts of the brain RESPOND to spiritual experiences, not CAUSE spiritual experiences.

You find it logical that the brain CAUSES spiritual experiences because it "sounds good". This isn't logic.

John
 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
8,880
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<< Moonbeam, research has shown that a certain area in the Human brain, referred to as the 'spiritual' center, is responsible for so-called 'spiritual' experiences. By stimulating this area, subjects felt a hand touching their shoulder, a sudden feeling of peacefulness and various other experiences.

Elledan,
Now here is a great example of the effect that preconceived opinions has on logic. I just finished reading a large chunk of that study, and what was found is that certain parts of the brain RESPOND to spiritual experiences, not CAUSE spiritual experiences.

You find it logical that the brain CAUSES spiritual experiences because it "sounds good". This isn't logic.

John
>>

Huh? The studies I read about were about stimulating this 'spiritual' center of the brain, not about parts responding to 'spiritual' experiences (what's a spiritual experience, anyway?).

As for your post regarding logic: I can not explain the kind of 'logic' I use, since no language or other form of communications, except for telepathy, is suitable to explain it to you.
To even attempt to use these inferior forms of communication to explain something which clearly lies beyond the capabilities of these ways of communication would be a mere exercise in futility.
 

JohnnyReb

Banned
Feb 20, 2002
212
0
0
As for your post regarding logic: I can not explain the kind of 'logic' I use, since no language or other form of communications, except for telepathy, is suitable to explain it to you.

To even attempt to use these inferior forms of communication to explain something which clearly lies beyond the capabilities of these ways of communication would be a mere exercise in futility.


What a bunch of Hogwash! Logic is not some vague mystery. It is a discipline to be mastered.

If you cannot explain your logical process in words, then you don?t have a logical process. We think in language. If you conclude without language-oriented thought, then you are depending on intuition, not logic. Logic is systematic.

John
 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
8,880
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<< As for your post regarding logic: I can not explain the kind of 'logic' I use, since no language or other form of communications, except for telepathy, is suitable to explain it to you.

To even attempt to use these inferior forms of communication to explain something which clearly lies beyond the capabilities of these ways of communication would be a mere exercise in futility.


What a bunch of Hogwash! Logic is not some vague mystery. It is a discipline to be mastered.
>>

Sure, one can master logic. Can one teach it to someone else? No way. It's a way of thinking, of reasoning. It's not some new, overhyped way of learning stuff.



<< If you cannot explain your logical process in words, then you don?t have a logical process. We think in language. >>

To put it in your words: what a bunch of Hogwash! We most certainly don't think in 'language'. Language is merely a manner of communication, a kind of communication protocol, but limited in its functionality.


<< If you conclude without language-oriented thought, then you are depending on intuition, not logic. Logic is systematic.

John
>>

No one thinks in a language. Your reasoning is flawed.
 

JohnnyReb

Banned
Feb 20, 2002
212
0
0
Sure, one can master logic. Can one teach it to someone else? No way. It's a way of thinking, of reasoning. It's not some new, overhyped way of learning stuff.

What are you talking about? Of course logic can be taught. You're right about one thing, it's not new.

From what you are saying, it's as if you think you were born with some mystical gift called "logic" that is somehow different than what is being taught on campuses around the world. It is so mysterious that you cannot possibly express the process in words, and it definitely cannot be taught to someone else.

You confuse intuition (the power or faculty of attaining to direct knowledge or cognition without evident rational thought and inference) with logic (a science that deals with the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration: the science of the formal principles of reasoning).

To repeat -- Logic: The science of the formal principles of reasoning.

Logical thought is language-based. When one ponders images/sounds, this is not logical analysis.

Are you just yanking my chain?

John
 

Optimus

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2000
3,618
0
0
The reasons I no longer try to debate with you, Elledan, are as follows:

1) You quickly become condesending, insulting, and immediately attempt to discredit your opponent by accusing them of superstition, illogical thinking, and irrationality.

2) You only accept evidence observed through the 5 senses. I accept observations made with our minds - things we are aware of in our consciousness and subconciousness, even though we cannot quantify or observe them through the 5 senses. Things like emotions, feelings, perception, desires, and awareness.

I'm posting this Elledan, because I really hope you can avoid number #1, and accept #2 as a possibly valid alternative, even though you do not follow it.

You are an interesting person to debate with, but the above 2 issues are just too aggravating to ignore, and quickly ruin a debate.

Thanks. As you often say, not a flame, just an observation.
 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
8,880
0
0


<< Sure, one can master logic. Can one teach it to someone else? No way. It's a way of thinking, of reasoning. It's not some new, overhyped way of learning stuff.

What are you talking about? Of course logic can be taught. You're right about one thing, it's not new.

From what you are saying, it's as if you think you were born with some mystical gift called "logic" that is somehow different than what is being taught on campuses around the world. It is so mysterious that you cannot possibly express the process in words, and it definitely cannot be taught to someone else.

You confuse intuition (the power or faculty of attaining to direct knowledge or cognition without evident rational thought and inference) with logic (a science that deals with the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration: the science of the formal principles of reasoning).

To repeat -- Logic: The science of the formal principles of reasoning.

Logical thought is language-based. When one ponders images/sounds, this is not logical analysis.

Are you just yanking my chain?

John
>>


I refuse to continue this conversation. You don't even understand the difference between 'thought' and 'language'.

Logical thought is NOT language-based because thoughts are not based on language. Period.
 

JohnnyReb

Banned
Feb 20, 2002
212
0
0
I refuse to continue this conversation. You don't even understand the difference between 'thought' and 'language'.

A retreat along with a parting shot is probably the most logical thing you could do right now.

Logical thought is NOT language-based because thoughts are not based on language. Period.

This is a good example of your tendency to state something in absolute terms to enforce your argument. Consider this article from UCLA Thought Without Language .

It begins:

Does thought depend crucially on language, as some philosophers maintain, or can abstract reasoning and related capacities exist in the absence of language? This volume, based on a Fyssen Foundation symposium held in Versailles in April 1987, addresses this question in a new way, bringing together for the first time three different groups of experts who usually view it from different angles.

This would seem to indicate that there is some question as to language-based thoughts. I have not said that thought cannot occur without language; I HAVE said that logical analysis cannot occur without language, and stand by that.

In this matter, you need to reconsider your position.

John
 

linuxboy

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,577
6
76
What I want to know is, howdoyoulike your Blue-eyed boy Mister death. Wait, that's not it. Oh, what I want to know is how I've missed this thread. I'll catch up on the discussion tonight but let me post this:

No one thinks in a language. Your reasoning is flawed.

Woah there. Well if Fodor is right, and many think that his ideas of mind functionality are inadequate but about the only thing we've got, then there is a language of though. The LOTH is the idea that propositional attitudes are a functional relational between representational content sort of couched in a language of thought. If that is right, despite the problem of content and the eventual symbolic sort of "thing" that one can't really express and admit ineffability, and problems of disjunction, nativism, etc., then it is quite possible that one DOES think in a sort of LOT, even though it's very difficult to say what that sort of natural language is.

I'll get back here later, really good discussion guys, thanks for the civility. Elledan, I told you there was a change. If not fundamentally then at least in behavior/words.

of course when you say that no one thinks in a language and that this reasoning is flawed it makes me think that you perhaps should at least see what people in the field say before deciding. Fact is, we are limited in how much we can know within a system. Decision making processes are not really that systematic, that's not how humans work. Of course they may be systematic insofar that they are in a system we can't explain, but eh... that really gets us nowhere except admitting that we're really pretty stupid and that maybe if we eat bananas once in awhile, we'll be in a pretty good spot to live and function. Well, that was my aside for the day.

Cheers !
 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
8,880
0
0


<< I refuse to continue this conversation. You don't even understand the difference between 'thought' and 'language'.

A retreat along with a parting shot is probably the most logical thing you could do right now.

Logical thought is NOT language-based because thoughts are not based on language. Period.

This is a good example of your tendency to state something in absolute terms to enforce your argument. Consider this article from UCLA Thought Without Language .

It begins:

Does thought depend crucially on language, as some philosophers maintain, or can abstract reasoning and related capacities exist in the absence of language? This volume, based on a Fyssen Foundation symposium held in Versailles in April 1987, addresses this question in a new way, bringing together for the first time three different groups of experts who usually view it from different angles.

This would seem to indicate that there is some question as to language-based thoughts. I have not said that thought cannot occur without language; I HAVE said that logical analysis cannot occur without language, and stand by that.

In this matter, you need to reconsider your position.

John
>>


The definition of language is that it's a way of communication. One who does not know any language can not think in a logical manner? That's what you're saying.
 
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