.

[PistachioByAzul]

Whatever "enlightenment" is, it's not where any of us are at, so don't be content with your current understanding.

I was kind of reluctant to open up a new can of worms, with the circularity issue pertaining to enlightenment. I mean nothing absolute regarding "___". I'm trying to talk Elledan down from his perch, that is, assuming I perceive his situation correctly.

 

[Moonbeam]

Rounding out, we are a machine that the universe makes possible. Our consciousness is a possibility in the universe. We are something that can be. We correspond to reality. We were created in it's image, a product of it's flow. We are not separate. We belong. We are whole, complete, entire.

 

[linuxboy]

Rounding out, we are a machine that the universe makes possible. Our consciousness is a possibility in the universe. We are something that can be. We correspond to reality. We were created in it's image, a product of it's flow. We are not separate. We belong. We are whole, complete, entire.

That is what we often forget. We often forget this because looming ubiquitously is a constant putting down, a constant telling that there is an outside. That we have to fight and conquer the outside. That there is another and that we need to manipulate the other to survive. That there is evil, that there is a Lucifer or a fallen angel against whom we must fight. And all of it is our own poor little self fighting for dear life and trying to make sense of it all with the language and cold, immoral logic that we have been given as a consequence. And so we do that. We go through the motions of living. We forget just how whole we are and how wonderful and magnanimous consciousness and existence is. And we are then wandering around, knowing that something is way off, while not really having a solution, despite the many hints left behind through the ages. And we become frustrated. And the love we have becomes hate. And language is great for telling someone how bad they are. Why look at western culture. It's infiltrated with ideas that we are bad bad bad. Well I don't recall being bad. I recall being. I recall total dependence on a Good and maybe I yearn for that again. But the universe is indifferent to my cries and so I think that I am still fragemented. And I think this is where a large number of people are now, especially ones who are sensitive and have a genuine curiosity and desire to know.

you said it here. We belong. We are whole. And we are completely on a tangent from the main idea about logic.

how unfair and horrible it would be if it was necessary for me to read philosophy books and memorize 10+ syllable words before I could start my journey to that place of complete self-awareness...

*mumbles something about reading endlessly in an effort to know what the wise men supposedly knew*

oh and hey Palek, it's been some time since I've seen you on here mate. This is indeed a very good thread. It seems that as time passes, and we are somehow made wiser and by the uncovering that time does, we are able to summarize our ideas faster and more succinctly.

Can we end with that? Or should we look into how this current idea relates to what this thread was originally about? In effect I'm asking, so what about "The God Problem"? John, any responses to this fork we've taken?

Cheers !

 

[Palek]

<< *mumbles something about reading endlessly in an effort to know what the wise men supposedly knew* >>



Do not put those books down just yet... I am sure you knew I was not referring to all of humanity when I said that it was unnecessary to suck up all the knowledge you can get your eyes/mind on to bring yourself closer to a state of complete harmony with your self. We are all very different individuals and the paths we have ahead of us are equally diverse. No two people will get to the end of the road through the same checkpoints, however I have come to have a very strong conviction that the destination, the conclusion, the end result of the quest, the moment of enlightenment will be a shared experience for most of us (... well, up to the point when we have to check in with our track record of faith, but this is just what I believe in - to my death and beyond -, remember that). Some people will take a round-the-world trip to get there, some people will hit it without any effort. Some will attempt to explore the whole universe before accepting their path, and some will just keep walking away from the path, because they do not find the reality within themselves acceptable.

My eyes were recently opened up to a few facts about myself that I was always aware of deep down somewhere in my subconscious but did not come to grips with for quite a while. I could have kept going without turning my attention towards this weakness in my personality that I was trying to reject, hoping that it would go away, but after a while it became too difficult, and I simply looked into myself and found this huge, ugly flaw in myself that needed to surface to stop me from walking away from my path. When I ignored it, I hurt me all the more and dragged me away from my destination... Now that I have accepted it, now that I have looked into myself without any self-imposed subjective filters, I see more of my true self in my weakness, therefore, coming to know what I am and how I operate, I can continue my journey of exploring the truth behind the reflection that I am, without getting sidetracked even further.

My walk is a simple walk. It avoids the intellectual wilderness that many seem to be wandering through. I am a pretty naive guy, or so people keep telling me. But at the same time, I am blessed with a clarity of vision that cuts through all the facade that my ego (or flesh, call it what you want) tries to force on me, and at the end of the day I know that I am a simple guy with a simple life and a clear, simple goal. My walk is cut out for me, it IS me. Please do not misunderstand me, I am not attempting to say that our fate is inevitable, all I am saying is that there is a walk of life out there for all of us, a path that, if taken and followed, will take us all to enlightenment. And you should know when you are on the right path for you will, more than ever before, be alive and aware of exactly who you are.

<EDIT> The thread title has mysteriously turned into a little dot. Why, Jerboy?</EDIT>

 

[JohnnyReb]

In effect I'm asking, so what about "The God Problem"? John, any responses to this fork we've taken?

You know, I'm just an ol' Alabama redneck. As a young man, a country preacher told me about Jesus, and he has been my constant companion ever since. He and I have held a lot of conversations over the past half-century. I guess I do not have a God problem.

As far as you guys who don't believe. Well, that's between you and Him. If my Bible is right, you will all stand before him and have a chance to plead your case. I do tell people about Jesus, because I weep inside at the thought of others missing what I have had these many years. I have gone thru more than my fair share of bad stuff and He was there at every turn. If somebody rejects the good news, then I can only leave him/her in the hands of God.

I do have problem with the mockers. There are those here who like to sound all high and mighty and look down their long crooked noses at people who just ain't smart enough to disregard the realities of their lives. There's another tread where a bunch of people ganged up on the guy who tried to prove the Bible was scientifically accurate. He made a couple of good points, but I feel his post was poorly thought out. I did briefly respond, and showed where one of the "problems" with the Bible was a matter of poor thinking on the part of the reader (the one about bats not being birds). These guys were quick to smell the blood in the water, but totally without the guts to admit that anything the poster said was valid. These are the kind of guys I've always enjoyed making myself available to, when I encountered them face to face.

As far as you guys, man, I really just can't follow what you are saying. I feel like I missed the first half of the movie.

Rounding out, we are a machine that the universe makes possible. Our consciousness is a possibility in the universe. We are something that can be. We correspond to reality. We were created in it's image, a product of it's flow. We are not separate. We belong. We are whole, complete, entire.

That is what we often forget. We often forget this because looming ubiquitously is a constant putting down, a constant telling that there is an outside.

This sounds a lot like Heinleinian Stranger in a Strange Land philosophy. I would ask the epistemological question: How do you know?

 

[Moonbeam]

JohnnyReb asks the epistemological question, how do I know:

I heard it forty years ago from a city slicker from New York.

The time's kinda off, but the principle's pretty much the same. The only difference maybe was that while your preacher was talking about somebody else, mine, in everything I could judge and determine about his actions, was a living exponet of what he could point to that he had discovered about himeslf with words. "There is nothing wrong with anybody except that they think there is." At a time when not everybody gets the chance to know the kind of country preacher that you did, I keep thinking it's time for a kind of spirituality that corresponds to the kind of thinking more and more people seem to want to do, non theistic reasoning. So, while I believe that the internal core of Christianity is nothing other than what I've been trying to say, the way into the essential insights that provide that 'good feeling' are somewhat different. I say there is no sin, it is an illusion. Christianity bypasses the issue via forgiveness from God.

My little taste that something unusual was cooking in the world didn't come that way. I failed as a believer, but I did find some odd form of surrender and peace in the realization that everything is meaningless including my need for meaning. By giving up everything, all that I had wished to be, I was reduced to what I really am. It made me smile. So, although I myself don't really know anything, it makes me smile.

As to mockers, a true mocker is reacting to feelings, hidden feelings of inferiority to what he mocks, in my opinion. Otherwise how do you explain the energy of his motivation. To feel superior has to be based of hidden inferiority. What to do with this information is a bit complex, so I'll just leave it there for what it's worth.

 

[BooneRebel]

<< "There is nothing wrong with anybody except that they think there is." >>



That's a nice Utopian thought, but consider the serial murder pleading insanity. Is it OK for him to murder as long as he thinks that it is OK?

At some point, whether you consider religion or not, you have to begin to form a set of ethical standards in order to function in our society. As an infant you will do anything you want to because you do not understand the implications of your actions. Gradually you begin to trust your elders as they tell you things for your own good (don't touch the hot stove, don't play in the traffice, whatever).

 

[Moonbeam]

Boone, I think I covered that under monkey see monkey do and tigers. There are some things about your statement that I think bare looking into. When you say, "As an infant you will do anything you want to because you do not understand the implications of your actions. ", I earlier asked, 'do you exist before you can speak?'. I other words who is the 'you' that does anything you want, and what is it that that 'you' wants. How is it that chimpanzees, who also have social rules don't have serial killers. This is not to get into the issue of whether real serial killers are really human. I think there is evidence that they aren't that they lack the very characteristic that makes us most human, the ability to empathize, and I thind they may lack it organically.

There is nothing utopian about what I said either, from my perspective. Where is the soul that doesn't believe the lie? I took a lantern down to the market place, but I didn't find him.