(754) Newcastles vs. (939) Winchesters

[Duvie]

I dont think we can discount upgradeability especially for enthusiast overclocker like myself....I rarely see newcastles hitting 2.6ghz as the regularity that sckt 939 winnies are hitting it and even hitting 2.7ghz. In a few months when the newer chips (possibly a 3700+ and 4000+) come out using the SS/SOI technology the sckt 754 will be done except for the semprons. I can pop a sckt 939 winnie in my system and maybe do 2.8ghz to 3.0ghz.....That is the upgradeabilty I was counting on...

You discounting shows this thread is not looking at all the facts...i think you came in with a predisposed bias anyways...

dual channel makes little gains on average with some test(like winrar) as Zebo pointed in his thread being very haapy to use the added bandwidth. MOst do not so it isn't a make or break thing anyways....


I plan on keeping this board for ayt least one winnie upgrade. If I can pop in a chip and get an OC of 2.8+ghz it is far worth the money I would have spent on a sckt 754 system and possibly only got 2.6ghz max with more vcore and usually more heat!!!


I agree this thread isn't definitive anything!!!

 

[Tarrant64]

Edit.

 

[Pr0d1gy]

Yeah Duvie, but alot of people don't have the need or want to overclock. I have seen the NC OC'd to 2.7Ghz, but either way it wouldn't matter to me. Overclocking can destroy hardware & shorten the life of them even if they are running stable. The fact is there really is no need to OC the NC for the next year or two anyways, especially if you have a high class video card. The improvements of the 939 are not enough to warrant stepping up to it unless you plan on going PCIx in my book. So this may not be definitive to you, but as you can clearly see alot of us agree with the OP. The NC/DFI/Xtasy x800xt combo should carry me nicely through the next 3 years without a hitch.

 

[Duvie]

Originally posted by: Pr0d1gy
Yeah Duvie, but alot of people don't have the need or want to overclock. I have seen the NC OC'd to 2.7Ghz, but either way it wouldn't matter to me. Overclocking can destroy hardware & shorten the life of them even if they are running stable. The fact is there really is no need to OC the NC for the next year or two anyways, especially if you have a high class video card. The improvements of the 939 are not enough to warrant stepping up to it unless you plan on going PCIx in my book. So this may not be definitive to you, but as you can clearly see alot of us agree with the OP. The NC/DFI/Xtasy x800xt combo should carry me nicely through the next 3 years without a hitch.

Did you hear me say everyone does this?? I said for ME!!! Since ocers make up a large amount in this forum and mnay have alluded to it, it is a factor. The OP is not obviously looking at this correcty or he wouldn't have negated upgradeability so fast...

On avearge most will agree week 40+ winchesters OC better. That is looking at sheer numbers and waht ppl are getting. Yeah sure some NC's will make it there, bnut nowhere near the frequency the winnies are at this moment. And that is obviously one thing that isn't going to get better for the NC's...Can for the Winnies though....

Edit: Your opinions about ocing are just that, opinions. I dont agree with all of them and it is really user dependent...

 

[Pr0d1gy]

Wow, you got defensive really fast didn't you? I am so sorry to have challenged your authority...lol

Anyways, I stated in my post that what the OP said applied to me:

"Yeah Duvie, but alot of people don't have the need or want to overclock. I have seen the NC OC'd to 2.7Ghz, but either way it wouldn't matter to me."

And it also was agreed with by alot of people within the thread. I would say the thread is a 50/50 split so there is no reason to preach about either side. I think this statement speaks for itself:

"The improvements of the 939 are not enough to warrant stepping up to it unless you plan on going PCIx in my book. So this may not be definitive to you, but as you can clearly see alot of us agree with the OP."

 

[Duvie]

I agree no need to go sckt 939 from sckt 754...I didn't think we were even talking about that...


However looking at getting an A64 and plan on ocing get a sckt 939...plain and simple...budget orientated the sckt 754 is still a very viable option...

Fact is a lot of ppl are ocing them as I can attest to from the hundred at least threads in the last 2 months on this.

A lot of ppl dont oc, and a lot OC....what is your point??? I mean dont discount my use cause you ffel it is not needed or warranted. It is for me!!!

hardly defensive!!!

 

[Pr0d1gy]

LoL whatever man...nice job flattening a good thread, congrats.

 

[Duvie]

How did I flatten it?? I am just suggesting the OPs bold print about upgradeability is wrong and it should be an issue when considering sckt type...I agree it should only be considered if you are say coming from P4 or socket A and already do not have a sckt 754..If you do have a current sckt 754 the OP and Zebo are right. there is no need to change as the differences are minimal....

If I cant argue against an opinion I guess this shouldn't be called a forum...

Fly away newbie!!!

 

[Chosonman]

Originally posted by: Duvie
I dont think we can discount upgradeability especially for enthusiast overclocker like myself....I rarely see newcastles hitting 2.6ghz as the regularity that sckt 939 winnies are hitting it and even hitting 2.7ghz. In a few months when the newer chips (possibly a 3700+ and 4000+) come out using the SS/SOI technology the sckt 754 will be done except for the semprons. I can pop a sckt 939 winnie in my system and maybe do 2.8ghz to 3.0ghz.....That is the upgradeabilty I was counting on...

You discounting shows this thread is not looking at all the facts...i think you came in with a predisposed bias anyways...

dual channel makes little gains on average with some test(like winrar) as Zebo pointed in his thread being very haapy to use the added bandwidth. MOst do not so it isn't a make or break thing anyways....

I plan on keeping this board for ayt least one winnie upgrade. If I can pop in a chip and get an OC of 2.8+ghz it is far worth the money I would have spent on a sckt 754 system and possibly only got 2.6ghz max with more vcore and usually more heat!!!

I agree this thread isn't definitive anything!!!

You missed the point which is that it's better to buy what works for you NOW rather than buy something based on what you expect to happen in the future.

You wouldn't buy a 754 chip now because you need something that will overclock well. That's you, but other people have different needs. But for the sake of arguement lets take it further. Say 3-6 months down the road AMD threw a wrench in your plans and came out with a new 740 chip that overclocks even better than a 939 chip. What would you do then?

The reality is no matter how much you think you've planned for the future. When it comes to computer systems you can't predict what will happen. And it is better to buy the best system that fits YOUR needs now rather than buying an overpriced under achieving system that you hope to upgrade to something nicer later. More than likely by then something better will come along that will be a better option than spending money on upgrades.

Again I never said don't buy a socket 939 because it's bad. But the expectations some people have on what they are getting can be misleading. If one were to compare a socket 754 to 939 system they would be getting virtually the same stock performance but paying a bit more money for the 939 system. And if we say the life of a computer is measured by performance of the system, both systems will eventually need to be replace at about the same time.

 

[Amaroque]

Originally posted by: Zebo
Amaroque,

We are enthusiasts..I'm buying that PCIe DFI board this week plus card(s)... Chosonman was writing for sane people, who simply buy a box every 3-5years and enjoy... with that in mind his judgement is sound.

I think Zebo summed it up nicely. I would also go so far as to say that most (not all) of the people here are hardcore enthusiasts, and aren't too interested in 754.

 

[Chosonman]

*edit

 

[Chosonman]

edit*

 

[jjyiz28]

Originally posted by: Chosonman

Originally posted by: Duvie
I dont think we can discount upgradeability especially for enthusiast overclocker like myself....I rarely see newcastles hitting 2.6ghz as the regularity that sckt 939 winnies are hitting it and even hitting 2.7ghz. In a few months when the newer chips (possibly a 3700+ and 4000+) come out using the SS/SOI technology the sckt 754 will be done except for the semprons. I can pop a sckt 939 winnie in my system and maybe do 2.8ghz to 3.0ghz.....That is the upgradeabilty I was counting on...

You discounting shows this thread is not looking at all the facts...i think you came in with a predisposed bias anyways...

dual channel makes little gains on average with some test(like winrar) as Zebo pointed in his thread being very haapy to use the added bandwidth. MOst do not so it isn't a make or break thing anyways....

I plan on keeping this board for ayt least one winnie upgrade. If I can pop in a chip and get an OC of 2.8+ghz it is far worth the money I would have spent on a sckt 754 system and possibly only got 2.6ghz max with more vcore and usually more heat!!!

I agree this thread isn't definitive anything!!!

You missed the point which is that it's better to buy what works for you NOW rather than buy something based on what you expect to happen in the future.

You wouldn't buy a 754 chip now because you need something that will overclock well. That's you, but other people have different needs. But for the sake of arguement lets take it further. Say 3-6 months down the road AMD threw a wrench in your plans and came out with a new 740 chip that overclocks even better than a 939 chip. What would you do then?

The reality is no matter how much you think you've planned for the future. When it comes to computer systems you can't predict what will happen. And it is better to buy the best system that fits YOUR needs now rather than buying an overpriced under achieving system that you hope to upgrade to something nicer later. More than likely by then something better will come along that will be a better option than spending money on upgrades.

Again I never said don't buy a socket 939 because it's bad. But the expectations some people have on what they are getting can be misleading. If one were to compare a socket 754 to 939 system they would be getting virtually the same stock performance but paying a bit more money for the 939 system. And if we say the life of a computer is measured by performance of the system, both systems will eventually need to be replace at about the same time.

agreed, i had a tbird 750 in the past, and ihad achoice between upgrading the cpu to a 1.4ghz (100mhz bus), which costs a lot, or just buy a NF2 mobo that uses ddr ram, and a athlon tbred. way more cost effective to buy the new mobo, better ram and tbred cpu, then spending the inflated price of the 1.4 cpu.

which is what i did, my tbred running at 2.2, on a NF2 board. now sure i could upgrade my cpu to a mobile barton, and hopefully get it to run 2.4 on air, but is it really worth it? much better off spending my money on a 64bit athlon and an NF3, and reuse my ram and vid card.

 

[DaFOBulous1]

So basically, the potential to O/C a A64 3.0+ 939 is better than let's say a 3.2+ 754 or even 3.4+? I'm a novice O/Cer so I'm not going to go hardcore but I plan to keep my system for another 2 years where I might keep my 9800 PRO for half of the time.

 

[Chosonman]

Originally posted by: DaFOBulous1
So basically, the potential to O/C a A64 3.0+ 939 is better than let's say a 3.2+ 754 or even 3.4+? I'm a novice O/Cer so I'm not going to go hardcore but I plan to keep my system for another 2 years where I might keep my 9800 PRO for half of the time.

I don't think so. IMO That's a bunch of hooey.

 

[Duvie]

Waht if I keep this board for 6-8 months from now??? I am not in a hurry for SLI or even PCI-e at this point so for me this board has what I need....I could get a new 939 in weeks that can do 2.8-3.0ghz...Where is th eoption for that with the newcastle??? I may be able to drop a dual core amd cpu in here...will it fit on the sckt 754??

I get your point somewhat...I still say:

If I was a person buying now who wants to OC to highest levels I get a sckt 939 board now....Sorry fact is sckt 939 are more consistently hitting higher levels....

If I was a person buying a board to last 1-2 years I would buy a sckt 939 now...Why??? The fact I could step up to a dual core with no other hardware needed....simplying plop in and see potentially a huge increase in performance....

If I was a person who upgraded a lot (not a big Ocer) I would see the wisdom behind still considering a sckt 754....Chances are I would be upgrading the whole system before ss/soi chips and dual core anyways...

If I was a budget conscious person then yes sckt 754...becuase there is minimal difference

 

[Pr0d1gy]

It's been said time & time again that dual core will not make a huge difference and SLI is too ridiculous to even worry about. I think when we're suggesting 754's it is for people who want to drop under $2k on a computer now and not worry about it for the next 2-3 years. I highly doubt my 754 system will be getting it's @ss kicked two years from now, unless I buy a low end 754 cpu...which is totally pointless...almost as pointless as buying a 939 3000+.

 

[fishmonger12]

Originally posted by: Pr0d1gy
almost as pointless as buying a 939 3000+.

how is that pointless? i'm confused :|.

everyone who puts together a pc is going to have different needs. i might want to buy the 3000+, a pci-express mobo with a 6600gt, and a gig of ram. then when 2 years go by, drop in a 4000+, a better vid card, and another gig of ram. while the next person may just want to run the same system until it runs out of life. even if the first option is not the most economically sound option, there's lots of stupid people out there and you're not going to persuade them all. so why keep bringing this up?

 

[Chosonman]

Here it is for you to see. AMD will make dual core from the "TOLEDO" and "OPTERON" chips and not the "WINCHESTER" chip. What does that mean to Winchester owners? In the words of the immortal Soup Nazi from the show Sinfield sorry but "NO DUAL CORE FOR YOU!"

AMD Road Map

Dual core is designed for workstations, video, audio, multitasking, and not for gamming. What does that mean to you? It means you can do a lot more tasks at once on your computer, but it will not make your system noticably faster because the CPU speed is still limited. Think of having 2 Pentium 4 1.8 computers. If you put them together they will not add up to a Pentium 3.6. They will be able to do the work of 2 computers but still run like a Pentium 1.8.

 

[fishmonger12]

according to their roadmap, they are releasing 4 desktop dual core processors. so dual core is for desktops ?

 

[Chosonman]

Originally posted by: fishmonger12
according to their roadmap, they are releasing 4 desktop dual core processors. so dual core is for desktops ?

I only see one for desktops.

 

[fishmonger12]

ah thanks.

makes sense now. the dual cores are going to be for workstations, servers, etc, for the same reason dual processors are?

another question: are you sure those new cores for desktop (the ones i thought were dual core) won't be for socket 939? if they are, they would be a good drop in replacement for a 3000+.

 

[Chosonman]

Originally posted by: Duvie
If I was a budget conscious person then yes sckt 754...becuase there is minimal difference

Excactly....

 

[ts3433]

Originally posted by: Chosonman
Here it is for you to see. AMD will make dual core from the "TOLEDO" and "OPTERON" chips and not the "WINCHESTER" chip. What does that mean to Winchester owners? In the words of the immortal Soup Nazi from the show Sinfield sorry but "NO DUAL CORE FOR YOU!"

Umm... Actual benefits of dual core aside, that does not necessarily mean that they won't be in 939 form. It's not like 939 only supports Winchesters and never will support anything else--it had Newcastles and Sledgehammers before it. Winchesters only required a newer BIOS [to be dropped into existing motherboards], and it's predicted that the same procedure would happen for 939 dual cores.

Socket 940 will get dual core first, however.

Clarity edit.

 

[Chosonman]

Originally posted by: ts3433

Originally posted by: Chosonman
Here it is for you to see. AMD will make dual core from the "TOLEDO" and "OPTERON" chips and not the "WINCHESTER" chip. What does that mean to Winchester owners? In the words of the immortal Soup Nazi from the show Sinfield sorry but "NO DUAL CORE FOR YOU!"

Umm... Actual benefits of dual core aside, that does not necessarily mean that they won't be in 939 form. It's not like 939 only supports Winchesters and never will support anything else--it had Newcastles and Sledgehammers before it. Winchesters only required a newer BIOS, and it's predicted that the same will be done for 939 dual cores.

Socket 940 will get dual core first, however.

No, and I never said it wouldn't be in 939 form. (And there is nothing written anywhere that says it will be 939 only that it would use .09nm technology) But there are those who believe that because dual core might come in 939 form they believe it will be available to the Winchester core. That's not the case. Winchesters are not being made into dual core. Period.

And there is nothing written anywhere that says adding a different BIOS can turn a Winchesters into a dual system. That sounds functionally inappropriate and is more wishfully thinking than anything feasable.