(754) Newcastles vs. (939) Winchesters

[DaFOBulous1]

I'm confused in some aspects. I saw a 3.2 939 with a nforce3 mobo for $290 shipped and a 3.4 754 for the same price with the a similar nforce3 board. The 3.2 754 combo I see are like $40 cheaper. I'm not a O/Cer hardcore as I plan to change completely once I finish college in 2 years. I got a 9800 pro, typical 160 Maxtor IDE, and Corsair XMS. So it isn't elite but would like the option to hang with most of the games. I might change my card in another year but...not sure.

As a casual user who wants some high end options...which is a viable option then?

 

[Amaroque]

As a casual user who isn't planning on OCing, and swapping out CPU's frequently, the 2.4/754 would be the best option to keep you going for a couple years.

 

[DaFOBulous1]

Well, I might O/C but not by much...thx for the advice though! I was more concerned about the Dual Channel availability since I might use TwinX. It's not about upgrade ability except for buying another video card. For me it's best performance for the next two years.

I mean I have a 9800 pro which I plan to keep for at least another year. -_- So you can tell.

 

[doublejbass]

I want in on this fray. I built a system last August with S754, A64 3000+, and now I have a preorder out on the $220 X800XL. I keep reading about this Nforce 4 non-ultra chipset that should offer PCI-E on S754, but it looks like those aren't able to be had. Is hoping for a PCI-E S754 solution futile? Right now I've got a BFG 6800OC unlocked at 16/6, but I'd sure hate to have to sell this XL if it comes through.

 

[masshass81]

Originally posted by: Chosonman

Summary
754 offers better value for those who don't upgrade..those buy a new complete new box every 3-5years and out with the old. 754 also offer a 3-5% loss in performance compared with 939 at same clock speeds, but still presenting a better value since 754 parts are clocked higher to begin with and priced much cheaper than 3-5%.

That is a valid statement and I agree, but only for the time being. But in about 2 months, NF4 mobos and PCIe gfx cards will be more readily available and will be priced at MSRP and even lower.

Originally posted by: Chosonman
Price
They are very close in price with the Newcastle core being slightly cheaper ($25) than a Winchester core. The difference in the price of motherboards tend to be much greater with Nforce 4 motherboard selling for about $170.00 now while an Nforce3 motherboard sells for about $80.00.

I beg to differ on the latter. NF4 mobos can be had for about $130 (NewEgg has two). Still, they are more expensive than s754 solutions, but not as much as you quoted.

Originally posted by: Chosonman
"939 is better because it will be made into dual core."
There are always rumors saying this or that about what might be. But speculation is only worth while in the stock market, but not when it comes to building a system. Here's the answer "Dual core will not come to the Wichester core." The Winchester core is not optimized for dual core systems and will not be used in dual core systems in the future. Also, consider the fact chipmakers make more money when there is no upgrade path. History has shown us that upgrade paths are very often distrupted by even minor changes in chip makers designs.

For those of you still not convinced. Check out the AMD roadmap. It clearly shows that the Toledo and not the Winchester will be dual core for desktops. In addition AMD will come out with at least 3 more .09nm chips from now till then. (Socket types have yet to be determined) AMD Road Map

Heres something interesting on that subject.. ripped from

http://forums.techwatch.com.au/viewtopic.php?t=4238&sid=8

source : http://www2.amd.com/us-en/protected/Weblets/1,,7832_11175_12416_12380,00.html
(You need to sign up...Its free).

If you don't want to, here is the KEY paragraph for all those planning to buy a new AMD setup.

AMD?s dual-core processors are being designed with today?s infrastructure in mind. System integrators will have no problem incorporating AMD Opteron processors into existing platforms and any desktop motherboard supporting a 90nm AMD Athlon 64 processor will accommodate dual-core descendants of the chip as well.

So basically, if you have a use for dual-core, then spending the extra money now in a Socket 939 mobo that supports 90nm Athlon64 CPUs pretty much gives you a strong possibility that you can upgrade to a dual-core CPU if you feel the need in the future. (There's nothing mentioned for Socket 754, and I doubt that will support dual-core).

If you have any doubts, or think I'm bullshitting you, you can always wait and see. (If you've seen the AMD roadmaps, you see an Athlon64 FX on there with dual-core labelled on it...Putting two and two together, and you know Socket 939 is dual-core compatible).

And its bloody obvious on the roadmap!
http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/ProductInformation/0,,30_118_608,00.html

Also, did you read Anand's CES 2005 article? They showed s939 dual-cores running on nForce4 mobo - without mods.. (near bottom of page)

http://www.anandtech.com/tradeshows/showdoc.aspx?i=2319&p=2

AMD's dual core socket 939 processors were also running in a back room on ASUS' A8N-SLI Deluxe motherboards - without modification. Although we had known for some time that dual core would only require a BIOS update on AMD motherboards (at worst), the knowledge that off-the-shelf motherboards running AMD's newest gave us a further boost of confidence for the future.

Heres a quote that supports this - quoted by an official AMD spokesperson
source - http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/display/20050128024937.html

?Socket 754 is mature and with that maturity come value-priced mainboards that are perfect to serve AMD Sempron?s market for quite a while. Socket 939 is young and virile with a long life ahead of it,? the spokesperson added.

from the same article

In future AMD may also release dual-core chips for 939-pin infrastructure.

Just because dual cores will use different cores, does not mean that it MUST change sockets - referring to you saying just because dual cores will be based on Toledo instead of Winchester automatically negates it from being on s939.

For example, s478 was introduced on Willamette IIRC, subsequently Northwood and Prescott cores are introduced on *gasp* s478.

What about socketA, it could also support different cores - Palamino, Thoroughbred (revisions A and B), and Barton.


As stated in the 'summary' the choice will vary based on the needs and economic standing of the user. I'm just trying to give more balanced information here because IMO it seems to be a bit biased on the OP's part. I have neither a s754 or s939 system - I'm actually still running a PIII system.........

Either way, within 2-3 months, this will be a non-issue as 939 NF4 mobos and PCIe cards will be more readily available and much cheaper. Oh yeah 939 NF3 mobos (AGP) can be had for <$100 (NewEgg).

 

[masshass81]

Originally posted by: Chosonman


"939 is better because it will be made into dual core."
......
The Winchester core is not optimized for dual core systems and will not be used in dual core systems in the future.

Forgot to address this in the last post, but do you have a source for this information?

The A64 was actually built from the ground up with dual-cores in mind. In other words, AMD left room on the design for another die. I read this a while back when dual-cores were introduced, but heres a link stating this... Quoted by Kevin McGrath - a Senior Member of the Tecnical Staff at Advanced Micro Devices

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1666609,00.asp

The original Opteron/Athlon 64 design was designed with multiple cores in mind, he reminded the audience.

I'm sure someone else can link other sources stating this as I remember reading in previous threads.

edit: if you don't want to read the entire article, the quote is on the 3rd to last paragraph.

 

[masshass81]

Oh yeah, from the same article I posted above.. (last paragraph)

Finally, the dual-core chip will maintain socket compatibility with AMD's 939-pin processors, he said.

 

[DaFOBulous1]

Darn it...u guys are confusing more and more...

A64 3200+ with 939 or A64 3400+ with 754...same brand board with same specs...and same price... ARGGGHGH!!

 

[BlvdKing]

Duvie is a known hot-head that takes everything personally. At best he is irrational, at worst he is an ass. Is there a way to block his posts?

The S754 has hit a dead end. IMO it would be wise to invest in a low end S939 Winnie right now and overclock it. If you are not overclocking, then the 3500+ is still a good deal.

I have a S754 with a 3400+ and I knew this was going to happen and it does not make me sad. I always upgrade CPU + motherboard. The only thing that worries me is the availability of AGP based video cards.

 

[ScrapSilicon]

Originally posted by: BlvdKing
Duvie is a known hot-head that takes everything personally. At best he is irrational, at worst he is an ass. Is there a way to block his posts?

lol

The S754 has hit a dead end. IMO it would be wise to invest in a low end S939 Winnie right now and overclock it.

:thumbsup:

If you are not overclocking, then the 3500+ is still a good deal.

in agreement again

I have a S754 with a 3400+ and I knew this was going to happen and it does not make me sad. I always upgrade CPU + motherboard. The only thing that worries me is the availability of AGP based video cards.

my Barton 2500 went(upgraded) thru 2 Epox', an Asus A7v8x-x and finally..an35n..seriously looking at the Epox 9NDA3J and a 3000+

For example, s478 was introduced on Willamette IIRC, subsequently Northwood and Prescott cores are introduced on *gasp* s478.

just worked on a Dell running 478 with 1.6 Williamette ..

What about socketA, it could also support different cores - Palamino, Thoroughbred (revisions A and B), and Barton.

left out TBird

 

[Vee]

Originally posted by: jterrell
The amd roadmaps have all the pertinent info you need about the chipsets. IT clearly states they will go to at least fx-61 on s939 while s754 will be sempron boards after the 3700+. Its in writing on their own site for goodness sakes not exactly a mere rumor.

? Please give me a link to where this is on writing on AMD's site.

 

[ScrapSilicon]

Originally posted by: Vee

Originally posted by: jterrell
The amd roadmaps have all the pertinent info you need about the chipsets. IT clearly states they will go to at least fx-61 on s939 while s754 will be sempron boards after the 3700+. Its in writing on their own site for goodness sakes not exactly a mere rumor.

? Please give me a link to where this is on writing on AMD's site.

scroll up its in masshass81's post

 

[masshass81]

Originally posted by: ScrapSilicon

For example, s478 was introduced on Willamette IIRC, subsequently Northwood and Prescott cores are introduced on *gasp* s478.

just worked on a Dell running 478 with 1.6 Williamette ..

What about socketA, it could also support different cores - Palamino, Thoroughbred (revisions A and B), and Barton.

left out TBird

Thanks :thumbsup:

Originally posted by: Vee

Originally posted by: jterrell
The amd roadmaps have all the pertinent info you need about the chipsets. IT clearly states they will go to at least fx-61 on s939 while s754 will be sempron boards after the 3700+. Its in writing on their own site for goodness sakes not exactly a mere rumor.

? Please give me a link to where this is on writing on AMD's site.

I don't remember seeing FX-61, but for sure we'll see at least 4200+ and FX-57. Along with the information provided above, spokespersons and senior executives from AMD imlpy that there will be much more provided on s939. (performance cpus)

AMD CPU Roadmap (Dec 18, 2004)

Theres also something there that notes >= FX-51 in Q1 '06.. Maybe thats your FX-61? Or it might be that dual-core FX-57 they were talking about. Anywho, The article talks about rumors of AMD using DDR2 this year, but an article from Xbit labs written after this one informed us that AMD will not be using it in the near future (at least not this year).

 

[Pr0d1gy]

They're also about to put out new 1mb L2 cache 754's before too much longer.

Welcome all ye who enter....

The Thread That Would Never Die!!! lol

 

[Chosonman]

Is this thread still kicking?

 

[Chosonman]

All I have to add is I'm kicking some serious CS:Source butt with my AMD 64 3000+ Newcastle 754 and 6800NU 16/6 unlocked running 400/775.

I've hit 11700 on 3DMark03
I think this is a better alternative then shelling the same amount for a 6600GT and only hit 9200 3DMark03.

 

[Chosonman]

I think we need to revisit this thread...

 

[montag451]

754 it is -
or should i wait till the 1MB cache comes out?

This is the last time i upgrade for the next few years, and as chosonman pointed out, everything will need to be upgraded by the time i do rebuild for myself!

 

[drpootums]

a little while ago Zebo had a post with the new AMD mobile chips. They will probably be skt754 (939 would be expensive with dual channel mem) and they consume 25 watts of power. They look like they will all have 1MB cache and will be clocked the same as a clawhammer would, but may quite possibly OC better than a 939 winchester.

 

[Vee]

Originally posted by: drpootums
a little while ago Zebo had a post with the new AMD mobile chips. They will probably be skt754 (939 would be expensive with dual channel mem) and they consume 25 watts of power. They look like they will all have 1MB cache and will be clocked the same as a clawhammer would, but may quite possibly OC better than a 939 winchester.

Well, it may be s754. I don't know. But I think AMD may intend to introduce another socket. So don't take anything for granted.
Changes nothing for 754 or 939. "Both have a long life ahead of them". 754 is the budget socket, 939 the performance socket.

 

[rivethead]

Granted this thread started on 2/6/05, but I'm just not seeing the price differential you were quoting.....

I'll be building my first system in March and I conceptually built these systems (all prices are as of yesterday at NewEgg except the case and LCD which I have already purchased and are my actual price):

Socket 754 System

SOLTEK "SL-K8TPro-754" VIA K8T800 $106.00
AMD Athlon 64 3000+, 512KB L2 Cache 64-bit Processor $147.00
Kingston 184 Pin 512MB DDR PC-3200 - Retail $69.58
SAPPHIRE ATI RADEON 9600PRO Advantage Video Card, 128MB DDR, 128-Bit, DVI/TV-Out, 8X AGP, Model "100561 GR" -BULK -OEM  $103.99
Seagate 80 GB Barracuda 7200RPM SATA with NCQ Hard Drive, Model ST380817AS, OEM $73.69
NEC 16X Double Layer DVD±RW Drive, Black w/ Software, Model ND-3520A, OEM  $66.49
Microsoft Windows XP HOME Edition With Service Pack 2 -OEM Specifications: Designed exclusivel...... $93.94

ImageQuest L90D+ 19" LCD Monitor w/ Speakers, 8ms and DVI ?RETAIL  $388.00
Antec Solution Series Quiet Black Mid Tower Case with 350W Power Supply, Model "SLK2650-BQE" - Retail  $45.50

$1,094.19

Socket 939 System

SOLTEK "SL-K8TPro-939" VIA K8T800 $113.99
AMD Athlon 64 3000+, 512KB L2 Cache, Socket 939 64-bit Processor - Retail $158.00
Kingston 184 Pin 512MB DDR PC-3200 - Retail $69.58
SAPPHIRE ATI RADEON 9600PRO Advantage Video Card, 128MB DDR, 128-Bit, DVI/TV-Out, 8X AGP, Model "100561 GR" -BULK -OEM  $103.99
Seagate 80 GB Barracuda 7200RPM SATA with NCQ Hard Drive, Model ST380817AS, OEM $73.69
NEC 16X Double Layer DVD±RW Drive, Black w/ Software, Model ND-3520A, OEM  $66.49
Microsoft Windows XP HOME Edition With Service Pack 2 -OEM Specifications: Designed exclusivel...... $93.94

ImageQuest L90D+ 19" LCD Monitor w/ Speakers, 8ms and DVI ?RETAIL  $388.00
Antec Solution Series Quiet Black Mid Tower Case with 350W Power Supply, Model "SLK2650-BQE" - Retail  $45.50

$1,110.18

Socket 939 System PCI-E

SOLTEK "SL-K890Pro-939" VIA K8T890 $127.00
AMD Athlon 64 3000+, 512KB L2 Cache, Socket 939 64-bit Processor - Retail $155.00
Kingston 184 Pin 512MB DDR PC-3200 - Retail $69.58
Albatron nVIDIA GeForce 6600 Video Card, 128MB DDR, 128-Bit, DVI/TV-Out, PCI-Express, Model "PC6600/128" - Retail  $119.99
Seagate 80 GB Barracuda 7200RPM SATA with NCQ Hard Drive, Model ST380817AS, OEM $73.69
NEC 16X Double Layer DVD±RW Drive, Black w/ Software, Model ND-3520A, OEM  $66.49
Microsoft Windows XP HOME Edition With Service Pack 2 -OEM Specifications: Designed exclusivel...... $93.94

ImageQuest L90D+ 19" LCD Monitor w/ Speakers, 8ms and DVI ?RETAIL  $388.00
Antec Solution Series Quiet Black Mid Tower Case with 350W Power Supply, Model "SLK2650-BQE" - Retail  $45.50

$1,139.19


It's $15.99 to go from 754 to 939. Add another $29.01 to go from AGP to PCI-E on 939. Or, a grand total of $45 to go from 754 AGP to 939 PCI-E.

$45. That's it. While the performance increase with a 939 vs 754 may only be slight, is it worth an extra $45?

My opinion is yes.

 

[Vee]

Originally posted by: rivethead
It's $15.99 to go from 754 to 939. Add another $29.01 to go from AGP to PCI-E on 939. Or, a grand total of $45 to go from 754 AGP to 939 PCI-E.

$45. That's it. While the performance increase with a 939 vs 754 may only be slight, is it worth an extra $45?

My opinion is yes.

It depends a bit on what MB choices you make.
Also, if you don't OC, there isn't any performance increase going from s754 3000+ to s939 3000+. There's a performance decrease. But I assume you knew that and intends to OC.

But on the same note, still non-OC, a s754 3400+ MB combo, which I think can be available at about maybe $260, outperforms a s939 3500+ MB combo, which I think you'll have to pay something like $340? for.

I think you you should want s939 for some specific reason, like OC'ing Winchesters, swapping in a later Venice, etc, for it to be worthwhile.

 

[KnobCreek]

Read what i said,and i didn't agree with it.

 

[rivethead]

"Also, if you don't OC, there isn't any performance increase going from s754 3000+ to s939 3000+. There's a performance decrease. But I assume you knew that and intends to OC"

I haven't decided yet if I'm going to OC. Still leaving that possibility open. However, your statement is revealing to me in that everything I have read thus far has stated that there are slight performance increases in 939 vs 754. But you're saying that's only via OC and that there is an actual peformance decrease going from 754 to 939 without OC?

That's the first time I've heard that. It appears that I have more research to do.

Can you point me to a thread/article that discusses this performance decrease?

" think you you should want s939 for some specific reason, like OC'ing Winchesters, swapping in a later Venice, etc, for it to be worthwhile"

Would that include updating your video card? I can see myself desiring a new VC in a few years. And I'm guessing that in a few years, most of the desirable VCs are going to be PCI-E. Maybe. Maybe not.

 

[bob4432]

i just picked out both a skt754 and 939 system for another person here and the difference was ~$30. it was a budget system but with reliable components.

for $30 i would go 939