(754) Newcastles vs. (939) Winchesters

[Vee]

Originally posted by: rivethead
"Also, if you don't OC, there isn't any performance increase going from s754 3000+ to s939 3000+. There's a performance decrease. But I assume you knew that and intends to OC"

I haven't decided yet if I'm going to OC. Still leaving that possibility open. However, your statement is revealing to me in that everything I have read thus far has stated that there are slight performance increases in 939 vs 754. But you're saying that's only via OC and that there is an actual peformance decrease going from 754 to 939 without OC?

That's the first time I've heard that. It appears that I have more research to do.

Can you point me to a thread/article that discusses this performance decrease?

" think you you should want s939 for some specific reason, like OC'ing Winchesters, swapping in a later Venice, etc, for it to be worthwhile"

Would that include updating your video card? I can see myself desiring a new VC in a few years. And I'm guessing that in a few years, most of the desirable VCs are going to be PCI-E. Maybe. Maybe not.

Oh, I suddenly see where the hickup is. Please consider that the s939 3000+ is 1.8GHz, the s754 3000+ is 2GHz. Same with my other example. s939 3500+ is 2.2GHz, the s754 3400+ is 2.4GHz.
There is a slight performance increase going from 754 to 939, but AMD have already factored that in the rating (...and then some).
So what we really have is that the 1.8GHz (3000+) 939 is slightly faster than the 1.8GHz (2800+) 754. And the 2GHz 939 (3200+) is faster than the 2GHz 754 (3000+), the 2.2GHz 939 (3500+) is faster than the 2.2GHz 754 (3200+), and the 2.4GHz 939 (3800+) is faster than 2.4GHz 754 (3400+).

But: s754 3000+ is overall slightly faster than s939 3000+, and so on.
That doesn't really bother the 3000+ Winchester fans on this forum much though, since they OC. There is also the expected range of higher clocked 'Venice' coming later.

Edit: about that videocard, sorry I won't try to help you with that. "in a few years", I don't plan that far ahead.

 

[iamskew]

what if you were building a budget system and got the 939 to get pci-e so that you could therefore save money on your graphics card by getting an nvida 6200? Wouldn't that justify the 939 socket then?

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: rivethead
Granted this thread started on 2/6/05, but I'm just not seeing the price differential you were quoting.....

Socket 754 System
SOLTEK "SL-K8TPro-754" VIA K8T800 $106.00
AMD Athlon 64 3000+, 512KB L2 Cache 64-bit Processor $147.00
Kingston 184 Pin 512MB DDR PC-3200 - Retail $69.58

Socket 939 System
SOLTEK "SL-K8TPro-939" VIA K8T800 $113.99
AMD Athlon 64 3000+, 512KB L2 Cache, Socket 939 64-bit Processor - Retail $158.00
Kingston 184 Pin 512MB DDR PC-3200 - Retail $69.58

$45. That's it. While the performance increase with a 939 vs 754 may only be slight, is it worth an extra $45?

My opinion is yes.

You don't see the price diff because you're blowing an unessesary extra $40 on an expensive skt754 mobo.

Try the Epox NF3 EP-8KDA3J for $66. So now you're spending $85 more for less performance. Yes, that's right, your 3000 939 is slower than 3000 754!!! Especially so, since you only speced out one stick of RAM??? BTW... I seriously don't get buying 939 if you plan to run single channel.

Here's proof that your xtra $85 was for less. http://www.behardware.com/art/imprimer/531/ Compare 3000 vs. 3000. Does skt 939 win one benchmark?

754 is a very viable solution, no way around it. That said I won't put a price on peoples opinion of "future" with options like dual core, PCI-E, more processors in future to choose from... that decision is up to every individual to make whether to go 939 or 754. But from a pure price/performance prospective 754 lays waste to 939.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: iamskew
what if you were building a budget system and got the 939 to get pci-e so that you could therefore save money on your graphics card by getting an nvida 6200? Wouldn't that justify the 939 socket then?

Nope, the agp verions are faster in the first place and can be modded to almost 6600GT levels unlike the turbo-cache 6200's in PCI-E form.

 

[ribbon13]

pwned!

For the those with the tight budget, nothing touches the 754!

939 has dual channel, SLI solutions, and has a dual core future. Lots of 2s! Like my ram timing!

Of course, if you gots lots of cash, the K8WE is the most powerful gaming solution in existance.

 

[Zebo]

K8WE is the most powerful gaming solution in existance.

Yup and you can encode DVD's while gaming and not notice.

 

[tallman45]

A good 939/PCIe mid-range solution is the

Gigabyte K8NF-9 for $119

http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=13-128-268&depa=0

with a MSI 6600GT $185

http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=321916

throw in a A64 3000+ 939 .90 Proc $149

http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=80699-2

$453, for current Gen products that will perform quite nicely

 

[ribbon13]

forgot the Corsair Value Select 2x512mb?

 

[ribbon13]

or the Buffalo or Crucial 8T that Zebo would reccomend?

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: tallman45
A good 939/PCIe mid-range solution is the

Gigabyte K8NF-9 for $119

http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=13-128-268&depa=0

with a MSI 6600GT $185

http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=321916

throw in a A64 3000+ 939 .90 Proc $149

http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=80699-2

$453, for current Gen products that will perform quite nicely

Or $120 for 2800 + $60 for 8KDA3I + $250 6800 AGP and beat above in every game for cheaper. ($430 vs. $453) I call faster more current gen

 

[rivethead]

Thanks for the reply and the link!

I probably should have provided more background in my posts with my three potential systems. The reason I went with only one stick of 512K ram now was cost considerations. I plan on building my new system in late March and by that time my budget will only have grown to about $1100. So I was trying to stay within my budget now, and then planned on adding another stick later this year. I chose to skimp on the ram because everything I've read thus far has indicated that dual channel ram really isn't that big of deal.

But I'm still in the research stage: absorbing and processing all of this info.

It appears that what it comes down to is this: do I want to maximize my computer dollars now (in terms of performance) or do I want to accept a performance decrease but gain more potential future upgradability.

I think I want the latter. I'm the type of budget builder that desires to stretch my dollars as far as possible for as long as possible. The 939 PCI - E system is probably more than I need right now, in terms of performance and it'll probably keep me satisfied for 3-5 years. If after three years I need more, upgrading to the GeForce 7100GT (or whatever is out then) will probably be sufficient to make me happy for several more years. If not, I can always upgrade the CPU too. I think it's safe to say that 939 will provide me with more upgrade options than 754 will in 3 to 5 years.

Thanks again to everyone for their replys. Your input is much appreciated.

 

[cjorod]

Originally posted by: Icopoli
I don't know about any of you, but I was happy on my P3 733, 256mb ram, geforce256 32mb DDR until 4 months ago when I got my a64 3000+ (754), 512mb ram, HiS x800 pro. I think you guys are going a little over the top in saying people will always want the next best thing every 3 months, I've just had the same system for the last 5 1/2 years.

AMEN!!

 

[Artanis]

Still some 754 MB's have issues installing more than 1 DIMM at DDR400 specs (K8T800 based), not even talking about more than 2 or 3 DIMMs 939 MB's solved that...

 

[Gamingphreek]

3) The 939 owner will have to upgrade again sooner rather than later because the technology on his motherboard is older.

What is this all about?

-Kevin

 

[bob4432]

Originally posted by: cjorod

Originally posted by: Icopoli
I don't know about any of you, but I was happy on my P3 733, 256mb ram, geforce256 32mb DDR until 4 months ago when I got my a64 3000+ (754), 512mb ram, HiS x800 pro. I think you guys are going a little over the top in saying people will always want the next best thing every 3 months, I've just had the same system for the last 5 1/2 years.

AMEN!!

i would kill myself if i had the same computer for 5 1/2 years. this person needs 1GB of ram

 

[EternusNox]

bump

 

[DanDaMan315]

Let me ask, Where is 939 going? Did AMD intend for it to be better than it is? I think most of the Dual Core processors will be coming out for 1271 or whatever, so justifying the purchase with dual core doesn't seem reasonable. What benefit would dual core be with only 939 pins? 939/2 = ~470 pins per core.

PCIE is the only major selling point to me.

Is it worth upgrading from a 3400 (754) to a 939? I was thinking about it, but after reading this forum it doesn't seem like I would benefit much or at all, or I might even lose preformance.

 

[Gamingphreek]

Dual Core processors have been confirmed to be coming out on Socket 939. As of right now your 754 is an excellent processor, you will not notice much difference in the upgrade.

-Kevin

 

[DanDaMan315]

I'm saying that the Dual Core for 939 might not be that good due to the lack of pins. And I think that gaming will not benefit from dual core for a while, and this is 90% of what I do on my computer.

I don't need to upgrade right now come to think of it, I just play CS:S all day and I get great frames with what I got. Once the next socket comes out I think I will get that.

 

[Vlad16]

Great thread, as I'm going through the same dilemma on the 754/939 choice. Since i upgrade so little, I think the 754 is the best way to go. I'd appreciate any suggestions.

This is what I'm upgrading from:

AMD TBIRD 1.33 Processor
Asus A7NX8-D
512MB PC2100
Radeon 9000 VIVO
Lite-On 16x CD-RW
Pioneer 16x DVD (old slot drive that doesn't support DVD+R
Antec Sonata Case
Viewsonic A90f+
SG 120GB HDD and IBM 40GB HDD (yes, the IBM drive is still running just fine)

Shame on me for not upgrading the processor, but everything but the case, monitor, and SG 120GB HDD will go to my father's new system in which I'll add a 17" LCD, an Antec SLK300B case, and a XP2100- XP2400 processor (to be found on EBay most likely).

This is the system that I'm considering to order over the course of the rest of March:

SOLTEK "SL-K8AN2E-GR" NVIDIA nForce3 250Gb - $86
AMD Athlon 64 3400+ Newcastle - $219
Corsair Value Select (Dual Pack) 184 Pin 512MBx2 DDR PC-3200 - $106
ATI AIW 9700 Pro - $180.00
Lite-On 16X DVD Dual Drive, Model SOHW-1673S Black - $59
SONY Black 16X DVD-ROM Drive, Model DDU1613/B2s - $26.00

I'm a light gamer, so the 9700 Pro will be more than adequate. My main interest is to capture and burn to DVD various shows and games on TV. Since I needed a VC upgrade as well as a capture card, I figured that the AIW 9700 Pro makes the most sense.

Can anyone recommend a VC/Capture Card combination that would be better for around the same price?

I've been tossing around the idea of going with a 939 platform, but I'd rather stay with an NVIDIA chipset as I got burned by the KT133 and KT266 chipsets from other systems I built (not the A versions). Since NVIDIA is only releasing PCI-E boards for the 939, it brings me back to the 754 since I want to go with a an AGP card.

I guess that my upgrades and current system are relevant to this post so this is where I decided to post for suggestions for my upgrades. I appreciate any input.

 

[masshass81]

Originally posted by: DanDaMan315
I'm saying that the Dual Core for 939 might not be that good due to the lack of pins. And I think that gaming will not benefit from dual core for a while, and this is 90% of what I do on my computer.

I don't need to upgrade right now come to think of it, I just play CS:S all day and I get great frames with what I got. Once the next chipset comes out I think I will get that.

Even if you do not want to go dual-core, s939 still offers long-term upgradeability for single-cores.

A64 4200+ is already out there, in addition to 4400+ and FX-57 being released before the 2nd half of 05. These chips are going to be faster than all the initial dual-cores released from Intel and AMD anyway.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/display/20050308013109.html

In your case, it would not make sense to upgrade to s939 from a viable s754 solution.

But for people upgrading from PIIIs, T-birds, AXPs; s939 is the way to go. Especially seeing how s939 PCIe mobos are dipping below $100, winchesters being the same price as s754s, and PCIe gfx cards being around MSRP now.

As for those noting that winchesters cpus are slower than s754 cpus because of the lower clock speed, both cpus with the same speed rating run wtihin 2-3% of each other in gaming, about half the time the s939 is faster than the s754.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/athlon64-90nm_9.html

So clock for clock winchesters are faster than the s754 cpus, which puts even more value on them for overclockers. Seeing how s754s can only get up to about 2.4Ghz, while winchesters can get up to 2.6Ghz easy, and consistently hit 2.8Ghz with the new DFI NF4 mobos.

 

[imported_g33k]

What I'm getting out of this thread is: If you want to run at stock speeds, then you should save a little money and go s754 and get more performance for your money. If you want to overclock, then go with s939 and get more bang for your buck, provided you get a good overclocking chip.

 

[DanDaMan315]

What will the future ATI chipset be on? I am an ATI fan and will probably get any motherboard that sports an ATI chipset.