756*

[wyvrn]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: wyvrn
Arod, if healthy, will shatter the record. I wonder if he uses steriods?

ARod will have to hit 35 to 40 HR / season for 7 more seasons to break the record, which i figure will probably be at 760 to 765.

i think he has a shot at breaking it, but shattering, i don't know, it would take at least 8 seasons of 35 to 40 hr / season for ARod to get in the 780 to 790 range. not an easy accomplishment and not one i would say is a given.

Well in my opinion, he is a more natural power hitter and should do it quite easily because I don't think age is going to cause him to just drop off. But, we will see. Especially considering that he regularly hits over 40 home runs.

 

[Capt Caveman]

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/f...spon=&pagewanted=print

Scientists say they do not believe steroids improve hand-eye coordination, but because they agree the drugs help build strength, some extrapolate that steroids would also quicken bat speed. Better bat speed gives the hitter more time to wait on a pitch, to read it and follow it. The player most likely has an extra split second to decide what pitch is approaching and whether he wants to swing at it.

''Steroids make your hands faster in that they increase muscle in your forearms and pectorals and numerous muscle sets involved in hitting a baseball,'' said Dr. Charles Yesalis, professor of health and human development at Penn State. ''If you need less time to get around on the ball, you have more time to tell if it's a slider, knuckleball or curve. That makes complete sense.''

When the player does start his swing, the steroids are really put to work. He is able to jerk the bat around faster, creating power from his arms, chest, shoulders and neck. ''It's basic force equals mass times acceleration,'' said Dr. Gary I. Wadler, professor of medicine at New York University, who has spent 20 years studying doping. ''The mass is muscle and the acceleration is the bat speed. There is a collision. The ball is being hit with more force than before and will go farther.''

 

[maziwanka]

wow. congrats i guess. sucks that he'll always be shadowed by his steroid use.

 

[BeauJangles]

Barry is Barry, love him or hate him you have to admit he's been entertaining. I'm not defending him, but I'm also not going to attack him as readily as others. While I would tend to agree with the faster batspeed = more time to wait on a pitch argument, that alone isn't enough evidence to condemn him. If we really wanted to see whether he was conferred an 'unfair' advantage, we'd have to know how many other players (pitchers included) that were taking steriods.

If steriods speed up Barry's bat, then wouldn't they also increase the velocity of a pitcher's throw, negating any gains Barry made? Plus, we all know that steriods damage tissue and tendons over time. Therefore, while steriods might have helped Barry hit 70 homers in a season, they should have also hurt his chances of getting to the 756 mark by damaging his body.

All we can really say is that Barry was / is a great player with or without steriods and he just broke one of baseball's most coveted records. I think he deserves just a little congratulations, even if he is a jerk.

wyvrn raises a good point, too. This record won't stand. There are guys (A-Rod, Pujols) that are nipping at his heels.

 

[wyvrn]

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/f...spon=&pagewanted=print

Scientists say they do not believe steroids improve hand-eye coordination, but because they agree the drugs help build strength, some extrapolate that steroids would also quicken bat speed. Better bat speed gives the hitter more time to wait on a pitch, to read it and follow it. The player most likely has an extra split second to decide what pitch is approaching and whether he wants to swing at it.

''Steroids make your hands faster in that they increase muscle in your forearms and pectorals and numerous muscle sets involved in hitting a baseball,'' said Dr. Charles Yesalis, professor of health and human development at Penn State. ''If you need less time to get around on the ball, you have more time to tell if it's a slider, knuckleball or curve. That makes complete sense.''

When the player does start his swing, the steroids are really put to work. He is able to jerk the bat around faster, creating power from his arms, chest, shoulders and neck. ''It's basic force equals mass times acceleration,'' said Dr. Gary I. Wadler, professor of medicine at New York University, who has spent 20 years studying doping. ''The mass is muscle and the acceleration is the bat speed. There is a collision. The ball is being hit with more force than before and will go farther.''

Other quotes from that article:

''Much has been made of 'roid rage,'' said Dr. Allan Lans, a sports psychologist who has worked with the Mets and players for other teams. ''In baseball, aggressiveness is to be a very controlled kind of thing. If you don't have control, it becomes detrimental to your performance. Even at the plate, what's required is focus and concentration. You can't use steroids for something like that.''

The article looks like the second promising one I have seen, but again it is anecdotal. What they need to do is juice up some already talented players, do a lot of testing, and that would solve the debate for sure. So far they have not taken it far enough to show conclusively that steriods makes that much of a difference in speed and power, which is what you'd need to make a case for Bonds not deserving the title. And then you'd had to prove he actually used them, which nobody has done yet.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
Barry is Barry, love him or hate him you have to admit he's been entertaining. I'm not defending him, but I'm also not going to attack him as readily as others. While I would tend to agree with the faster batspeed = more time to wait on a pitch argument, that alone isn't enough evidence to condemn him. If we really wanted to see whether he was conferred an 'unfair' advantage, we'd have to know how many other players (pitchers included) that were taking steriods.

If steriods speed up Barry's bat, then wouldn't they also increase the velocity of a pitcher's throw, negating any gains Barry made? Plus, we all know that steriods damage tissue and tendons over time. Therefore, while steriods might have helped Barry hit 70 homers in a season, they should have also hurt his chances of getting to the 756 mark by damaging his body.

All we can really say is that Barry was / is a great player with or without steriods and he just broke one of baseball's most coveted records. I think he deserves just a little congratulations, even if he is a jerk.

wyvrn raises a good point, too. This record won't stand. There are guys (A-Rod, Pujols) that are nipping at his heels.

i'm sorry but it's way to early to be talking about Pujols, a record like this requires prodigious power (which he has) and longevity (which we just don't have enough data on pujols to know).

at least with ARod, he has 500 HRs.

 

[Dualist]

Congrats to him, whether it's steriods or not.

 

[BrokenVisage]

Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
Barry is Barry, love him or hate him you have to admit he's been entertaining. I'm not defending him, but I'm also not going to attack him as readily as others. While I would tend to agree with the faster batspeed = more time to wait on a pitch argument, that alone isn't enough evidence to condemn him. If we really wanted to see whether he was conferred an 'unfair' advantage, we'd have to know how many other players (pitchers included) that were taking steriods.

If steriods speed up Barry's bat, then wouldn't they also increase the velocity of a pitcher's throw, negating any gains Barry made? Plus, we all know that steriods damage tissue and tendons over time. Therefore, while steriods might have helped Barry hit 70 homers in a season, they should have also hurt his chances of getting to the 756 mark by damaging his body.

All we can really say is that Barry was / is a great player with or without steriods and he just broke one of baseball's most coveted records. I think he deserves just a little congratulations, even if he is a jerk.

wyvrn raises a good point, too. This record won't stand. There are guys (A-Rod, Pujols) that are nipping at his heels.

Well put, I don't like the man but I recognize and appreciate the accomplishment. Hopefully Ryan Howard will be the one at the top when all is said and done, man what a beast he is!

 

[preslove]

Why wasn't there the same controversy when McGuire broke the single season record. He even admitted to taking performance enhancers that were banned by the olympic committee.

Also, every single "record" set before Jackie Robinson deserves an asterisk because the best baseball players in America could not play.

 

[j00fek]

give

me

roids

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: preslove
Why wasn't there the same controversy when McGuire broke the single season record. He even admitted to taking performance enhancers that were banned by the olympic committee.

Also, every single "record" set before Jackie Robinson deserves an asterisk because the best baseball players in America could not play.

because all of america like MLB and Selig were pretending like they didn't know that McGuire was on steroids.

also, people just want to hate on barry, they pretend like it's just the steroids, but the fact is, even if he had never done the the steroids, they would still be hating on him.

 

[nick1985]

*

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: nick1985
*

does McGuires single season HR record get an * also?

 

[Capt Caveman]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: preslove
Why wasn't there the same controversy when McGuire broke the single season record. He even admitted to taking performance enhancers that were banned by the olympic committee.

Also, every single "record" set before Jackie Robinson deserves an asterisk because the best baseball players in America could not play.

because all of america like MLB and Selig were pretending like they didn't know that McGuire was on steroids.

also, people just want to hate on barry, they pretend like it's just the steroids, but the fact is, even if he had never done the the steroids, they would still be hating on him.

Actually, he was one of my favorite players til he decided to roid up and instead of still being one of the best 5 tool players in history decided to be a home-run roid rager.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: preslove
Why wasn't there the same controversy when McGuire broke the single season record. He even admitted to taking performance enhancers that were banned by the olympic committee.

Also, every single "record" set before Jackie Robinson deserves an asterisk because the best baseball players in America could not play.

because all of america like MLB and Selig were pretending like they didn't know that McGuire was on steroids.

also, people just want to hate on barry, they pretend like it's just the steroids, but the fact is, even if he had never done the the steroids, they would still be hating on him.

Actually, he was one of my favorite players til he decided to roid up and instead of still being one of the best 5 tool players in history decided to be a home-run roid rager.

i'll admit it, i'm still a BB fan, but the fact is he is pretty hated and was even before the roids.

it is still mind boggling to me how good he really was, he would have been 650+ HR and 600+ SB without the roids. that would have been a record that would have gone untouched for a very very long time.

 

[Vette73]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: nick1985
*

does McGuires single season HR record get an * also?

McGuire does not have the season record. And no he should no have a *, it should just be erased like Bonds numbers.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: nick1985
*

does McGuires single season HR record get an * also?

I'd say so. In retrospect it seems quite clear he too was using steroids.

 

[Kaspian]

Originally posted by: Quintox
Who cares

 

[BeauJangles]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
Barry is Barry, love him or hate him you have to admit he's been entertaining. I'm not defending him, but I'm also not going to attack him as readily as others. While I would tend to agree with the faster batspeed = more time to wait on a pitch argument, that alone isn't enough evidence to condemn him. If we really wanted to see whether he was conferred an 'unfair' advantage, we'd have to know how many other players (pitchers included) that were taking steriods.

If steriods speed up Barry's bat, then wouldn't they also increase the velocity of a pitcher's throw, negating any gains Barry made? Plus, we all know that steriods damage tissue and tendons over time. Therefore, while steriods might have helped Barry hit 70 homers in a season, they should have also hurt his chances of getting to the 756 mark by damaging his body.

All we can really say is that Barry was / is a great player with or without steriods and he just broke one of baseball's most coveted records. I think he deserves just a little congratulations, even if he is a jerk.

wyvrn raises a good point, too. This record won't stand. There are guys (A-Rod, Pujols) that are nipping at his heels.

i'm sorry but it's way to early to be talking about Pujols, a record like this requires prodigious power (which he has) and longevity (which we just don't have enough data on pujols to know).

at least with ARod, he has 500 HRs.

Agreed. I overstated Pujols. A-Rod though looks like he has a great shot of surpassing any mark set by Bonds and he'll do it with much less controversy swirling around him.

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: wyvrn
The article looks like the second promising one I have seen, but again it is anecdotal. What they need to do is juice up some already talented players, do a lot of testing, and that would solve the debate for sure. So far they have not taken it far enough to show conclusively that steriods makes that much of a difference in speed and power, which is what you'd need to make a case for Bonds not deserving the title. And then you'd had to prove he actually used them, which nobody has done yet.

So, you're claiming that there's no proof that *performance enhancing* drugs actually enhance performance?? That's pretty funny! Or, is your claim that performance enhancing drugs have not yet been proven to enhance how far someone can hit a baseball? That argument would be like saying "Sure, NOS can make a Honda Accord faster, a Geo Metro faster, a Honda Civic faster, a Pontiac GTO faster... But, we don't know if it'll make a Toyota Camry faster until someone actually puts it in a few Camrys under controlled conditions and runs tests."

Oh, and you keep ignoring something... maybe you haven't read the posts in this thread... What about him *admitting* to using the cream and the clear (But he didn't know what they were at the time.) The only thing that isn't proven is that he knowingly used them.

 

[Svnla]

I don't hate or love Barry but if he really is clean, why didn't he take all the test(s) to prove that he didn't juice/use steroids? If you have nothing to hide, why not just take the tests?

Maybe the baseball experts/gurus can help out here. Why baseball, especially the commissioner, didn't set the banned list (enhanced drugs/items) as strict as other sports such as NFL, Olympic, etc.?

I remember way back when he was with Pitt Pirates, he wasn't that huge. Hard to believe a 40something guy can just work out and be that big.

Just my 0.02 cents, don't flame me..LOL.

 

[dainthomas]

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy

Originally posted by: Cdubneeddeal

Originally posted by: umbrella39

Originally posted by: Gigantopithecus

Originally posted by: jinduy

Originally posted by: schneiderguy

Originally posted by: DonVito
Booo. Not Booooo-urns. Bonds is a cheating asshole and has demeaned the record book the same way he demeans every game he plays in.

Sorry, but even if he DID do steroids, steroids don't help you hit a baseball.

:thumbsup:

And strength has nothing to do with how hard you can hit a baseball?

Strength has little to do with hitting a ball 400+ feet. If it did, body builders would be playing MLB instead of oiling their bodies every weekend.

I'll have to agree with that statement. Look at Ichiro. Now, I do still think that Bonds was juiced up and did help him get the home run title but I do agree with your statement.

:laugh: Ichiro? Yeah... 'cause Ichiro is a home run hitting machine. Dude averages a whopping 11 dingers a year. He gets more hits than anyone... and only jacks out 11 times a year. Thanks for proving my point from earlier.

Steroids = more strength = faster bat speed/more power = more home runs

It's pretty simple. Bonds wouldn't be at 756 if he hadn't juiced. He would have never hit 73 in a season if he wasn't juiced. He'd be another five tool, first ballot hall of famer hitting 40 homers a year.

Ichiro's Stats. 1550 hits. 66 Home runs in 6 years. Or one HR every 69 at bats. Compare those numbers to Bonds and tell me strength doesn't make a difference. For that matter, compare Bonds pre-1998 to Bonds post-1998.

Ichiro hits it out of the park at will during bp. He gets base hits to help the team.

 

[Toasthead]

Ok everyone, I am an avid baseball follower and I preface this comment by saying as a bay area resident and Oakland A's fan I HATE BARRY BONDS AS MUCH AS ANYONE CAN, but the simple fact remains that he did NOTHING against the rules of baseball. Neither Did Mark McGwire. They simply used the available technology to increase their performance. Steroids while criminal to possess were not listed in the banned substances by MLB. Since they HAVE been listed, he has not tested positive once.

That said, Bonds is insufferable jerk (to the media and others) who will only have the record for a few years because guys like Arod and such are coming up quickly on his heels.

Can we PLEASE stop talking about him.

 

[SoulAssassin]

Thread title is inaccurate please update to '756*'.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: SoulAssassin
Thread title is inaccurate please update to '756*'.

thread title is accurate, no one is quesitoning or denying the actual number of HR's hit. :roll:

they are questioning his place in history, hence it would be

Most HR hit in a career

1*. Barry Bonds
2. Henry Aaron