75hz refresh rate on LCDs and FPS in games

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CP5670

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2004
5,527
604
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For online play in some fast paced games (e.g. UT games) I would also consider 75fps somewhat low. A constant 100fps gives you a slight edge that is good to have, especially in some games where the mouse lag is tied into the framerate.

And it's funny how these "the human eye can't see more than x fps!!" posts pop up on a regular basis in these threads.
 

Regulator07

Senior member
Feb 15, 2005
517
0
71
i may be wrong, but i thought that on LCDs there was really no refresh rate persay but rather the response time is what makes the difference. i have never run my lcd's higher than 60Hz and i cant see any difference from when i ran my crt at 85Hz and up. also my 17 inch lcd does 75Hz and i notice nothing different between 60Hz and 75Hz. but when i have played games on a 20-25ms response time lcd, i can see the ghosting and it makes my eyes go batty. i run games with vsync off and i can see the difference above 60fps when i am really into it, but lcd's have no problem displaying frames above 60.
 

yacoub

Golden Member
May 24, 2005
1,991
14
81
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: mercanucaribe
You CANNOT see 85fps. If you think you can, you're fooling yourself.

Don't try and pass off your disabilities on the rest of us. I have no problem discering 75 from 85 or 85 from 100..it's after about 110 it gets nebulous.

Not to mention it's about FEEL not SIGHT. You can FEEL the difference in fps gaming when snap-shooting and moving quickly. Not to mention if you're pushing 90fps and lose 30fps in hectic battles, you're only dropping to 60fps, where as if you max 50fps, you're dropping to 20fps which is on the verge of slideshow and readily sluggish.
 

the Chase

Golden Member
Sep 22, 2005
1,403
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Originally posted by: yacoub
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: mercanucaribe
You CANNOT see 85fps. If you think you can, you're fooling yourself.

Don't try and pass off your disabilities on the rest of us. I have no problem discering 75 from 85 or 85 from 100..it's after about 110 it gets nebulous.

Not to mention it's about FEEL not SIGHT. You can FEEL the difference in fps gaming when snap-shooting and moving quickly. Not to mention if you're pushing 90fps and lose 30fps in hectic battles, you're only dropping to 60fps, where as if you max 50fps, you're dropping to 20fps which is on the verge of slideshow and readily sluggish.

This sums it up for me- it seems some games are more sensitive to this than others. I swear for Bf Vietnam you need 120+ fps to feel "snappy". If you are running below 80 fps it seems like you are swimming in the scene and terrific mouse lag.
 

cheap

Senior member
Sep 30, 2002
399
0
0
Originally posted by: Matthias99
That said, the guy whining about 75FPS not being enough is just being too picky IMO. Perhaps my perspective is somewhat different having had to deal with playing Quake (1) in SOFTWARE rendering, where getting 20FPS consistently at 640x480 was difficult.

I know what you're talking, I played Quake/Quake 2 in software getting 15fps, then I got Celery 300 oced at 450 (those were sweetest cpu chips back then) and TNT2 and I was pushing 40 fps in Quake2 at 1024res. I've been playing fps games for 10+ years starting with Doom and Duke Nukem. But like other poster said, for single player lower fps is fine, but for fast paced multiplayer action with lots of twitching and snap shots you really gotta have higher fps. And lots of multiplayer is all I play.
 

bigpow

Platinum Member
Dec 10, 2000
2,372
2
81
No. As long as VSync is off, your game will run as fast as your hardware allow.

My Quake 4 necro666 timedemo results:
Vsync on = 53 fps
Vsync off = 90 fps

Monitor is an LCD 1280x1024 @60Hz
 

xtknight

Elite Member
Oct 15, 2004
12,974
0
71
Originally posted by: the Chase
This sums it up for me- it seems some games are more sensitive to this than others. I swear for Bf Vietnam you need 120+ fps to feel "snappy". If you are running below 80 fps it seems like you are swimming in the scene and terrific mouse lag.

In some games, excess of 90 FPS is needed for input and physics to work a certain way, like in Quake 2 and Quake 3. I believe with Doom 3 this problem was fixed by forcing everything to 60 Hz (unless you change the tics setting). It's not all about how fast your eyes are seeing and blending the frames. You also need a fast response to mouse movements (which may be at 120 Hz) to deduce a smooth overall image. Obviously, with movies you are not controlling anything. But regardless I see jerkiness at supposedly fluid film 24 FPS in lots of situations.
 

Cawchy87

Diamond Member
Mar 8, 2004
5,104
2
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Originally posted by: Zstream
Originally posted by: Matthias99
Originally posted by: mercanucaribe
You CANNOT see 85fps. If you think you can, you're fooling yourself.

Most people can tell differences up to 100+FPS. Don't believe me? Search for a utility called FPSCompare and check it out yourself (you'll need a good CRT monitor that can run at 100Hz to really get the best results).

There have also been a number of LONG threads about this. The basic conclusion is that 'you can't see more than X FPS' statements are pretty much full of it unless X is at least 200. There is also some evidence reported that people are more sensitive to the 'framerate' of something that is giving them feedback (like an interactive game) than something they are just watching.

No one needs to search it is SCIENCE or the way you are born. A human eye cannot see more then 30-40 fps, they only thing you see is the way the game is lagging or jittery. It has nothing to do with your eyes you fools. I swear geeks think they know more then millions of scientist.

Couldn't be more wrong.

This old Thread is an EXCELLENT read regarding refreash rates, and what can be seen by the human eye.
 

supastar1568

Senior member
Apr 6, 2005
910
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76
Originally posted by: Cawchy87
Originally posted by: Zstream
Originally posted by: Matthias99
Originally posted by: mercanucaribe
You CANNOT see 85fps. If you think you can, you're fooling yourself.

Most people can tell differences up to 100+FPS. Don't believe me? Search for a utility called FPSCompare and check it out yourself (you'll need a good CRT monitor that can run at 100Hz to really get the best results).

There have also been a number of LONG threads about this. The basic conclusion is that 'you can't see more than X FPS' statements are pretty much full of it unless X is at least 200. There is also some evidence reported that people are more sensitive to the 'framerate' of something that is giving them feedback (like an interactive game) than something they are just watching.

No one needs to search it is SCIENCE or the way you are born. A human eye cannot see more then 30-40 fps, they only thing you see is the way the game is lagging or jittery. It has nothing to do with your eyes you fools. I swear geeks think they know more then millions of scientist.

I sort of agree.

I think it makes people feel a bit better that they spend 500 bucks on a video card to get extra FPS. Even in BF2 with my old 6600gt, I would get 25 fps and still own.
 

xtknight

Elite Member
Oct 15, 2004
12,974
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71
Originally posted by: supastar1568
I sort of agree.

How is it possible to agree with blatantly false 'facts' (human eye can't see past blah blah)? I'm fine with you agreeing that 60 FPS is enough for games, but I can't possibly see how one more person in here can claim that human eye BS. I don't know which you were agreeing with.
 

CP5670

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2004
5,527
604
126
It's possible for low end cards to get excellent framerates in multiplayer anyway. You just turn down most of the graphics settings to the minimum. Most of the pro players do this in fact. I don't pay any attention to graphics in multiplayer games anyway so it's no big loss for me if I have to do that.
 

Guspaz

Member
Mar 14, 2003
142
0
0
Turning on triple buffering pretty much eliminates any performance hit from vsync. With it on, it isn't a question of 100-30 vs 75-30, because at 75 you've got power to spare, so if the demand goes up the card can still render at 75.

The reason double-buffering speed drops with vsync on is because of the way rendering works. With double buffering, there are two buffers; what is on the screen, and what is being drawn. With double buffering, you waste rendering time waiting for the next sync cycle to occur. Once one occurs, you swap the backbuffer into the frontbuffer. But at that point, you do NOT have the next frame ready. You've got something displayed on screen in the frontbuffer, but an empty backbuffer that needs to be drawn.

With triple buffering, there is always a frame waiting to be drawn, and the drawing happens in a third buffer. So while you're waiting to swap out the next frame, you're already working on the one after that.

The downside of triple buffering is that it does delay rendering by one frame worth. At a constant 75hz, triple buffering delays video output by about 13ms. Normally it is impossible to notice this delay since there are already other delays at work (so-called mouse lag, for example, is always present, even if it is imperceptibly low). Another delay factor doesn't usually matter. However, there are many circumstances when it IS noticeable.

It is a tradeoff, really. There are three options. the first option is to leave vsync off. The benefit of this is that you get the 75FPS (effectively drawn to screen), and no loag, but the downside is the tearing. The second option is vsync on with double buffering. The upside of this is that it eliminates tearing, and does not introduce any additional lag (not counting that introduced by a lower framerate). The downside is that performance suffers because the card is wasting time waiting for swaps to happen. The third option is vsync on with double buffering on too. This eliminates any performance penalty from vsync, but adds the latency.

One could also easily argue that the 13ms of latency by delaying a frame is counterbalanced by the additional times between frames with vsync and double buffering. Dropping from 75 to 50 FPS would mean about 7ms longer between frames drawn. So the apparent delay only increases by about 6ms by enabling triple buffering, once you take that into account.

As for the issue about 75hz... Well, from the biological perspective, my take is that the human eye IS limited to 30 or 40 hz, except that ignores exposures. Think of a blurry moving object in a camera. Even though you only have one "frame", the object moving is present in multiple locations in that frame, hence the motion blur. While the human eye might only work at 30 or 40 hz, you can perceive smoother (more natural) motion at higher framerates because the higher the framerate is that more reference points there are for exposure. Theoretically, simulating motionblur would not be required on a computer displaying images (without motionblur) at a high enough refresh rate. The human eye, presented with a large number of images per second, would create the motionblur as it does in nature. I suspect this is why people can tell the difference between 60FPS and 200FPS. There is an increase in fluidity.

Another example of exposure would be to think of a picture taken with a shutter time of 100ms. That would be one tenth of a second. You might be tempted to say that any event that happens that takes less than 100ms would be missed. But instead, the film is exposed to that object for a fraction of the exposure time. The image captures a ghost-like translucent image of the temporary object. The eye works the same way. Even if you only see a new image every 30th of a second, objects present for less time still can make an impression.

On the issue of if it really matters, I'm going to say no, not really. 75FPS is high enough to create a SUFFICIENTLY fluid movement. It isn't perfect, but it is "good enough". Advances in realtime motionblur (see what Valve has done with DoD) may further improve this with existing framerates. The eye may not be able to tell the difference between natural motionblur and sufficiently good artificial motionblur. And by this I mean good motionblur. Some motionblur effects simply overlay the last few frames onto the screen. This isn't real motionblur, and it looks like crap.

I don't recall what method Valve used for DoD, but the trailer video is quite informative. If you look at individual screenshots, they look insanely blurred. You think, this is horrible, why would anybody want to play like this? Then you see the footage itself, and all of a sudden it looks very natural. The blur, instead of decreasing quality or sharpness, actually increases the apparent fluidity of motion, making it EASIER to track objects.

Here is a download link to just the motionblur part of the demo footage:

http://www.fileshack.com/file.x?fid=8105

As I said, pause it and it looks blurry. Play it and it looks very natural.
 

supastar1568

Senior member
Apr 6, 2005
910
0
76
Originally posted by: xtknight
Originally posted by: supastar1568
I sort of agree.

How is it possible to agree with blatantly false 'facts' (human eye can't see past blah blah)? I'm fine with you agreeing that 60 FPS is enough for games, but I can't possibly see how one more person in here can claim that human eye BS. I don't know which you were agreeing with.


yea, well it all depends. I think one can tell the difference between 75fps and 30fps if it is a sudden change. Like when playing games.

But if someones fps were to go from 75, to 74, to 73, down to 30 i dont think anyone would be able to tell.

thats what im saying
 
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