777 crash at san Francisco airport

[davmat787]

SFO PAPI initially was reported as being down, but it was, in fact, up. They also bowled over 3 of the 4 lights.

I suspect the fact that they didn't really wave off was that it would have been an insult to themselves, culturally.

Over on pprune, where pilots have a forum, several have mentioned stories along these lines. In fact, it wasn't until several years ago where a missed approach would result in disciplinary action!

The Korean Air 747 that crashed shortly after takeoff from Heathrow is another story that illustrates terrible Cockpit Resource Management. For cultural reasons, junior pilots just will not speak up even if there lives are about to end. I don't say that lightly, this was confirmed with cockpit voice recordings and it appears that even with 4 pilots in the cockpit of the SFO crash, the other three pilots were virtually silent.

It appears only one spoke up, recommending more thrust at about 4 seconds before the crash, but their fate was sealed by then. It takes about 2 seconds for the engines to spool up and deliver the increased thrust once they push the thrust controller forward.

My guess, or rather hope, is this will be the last straw if in fact poor Cockpit Resource Management is proven, and they overhaul that part of the training.

 

[Hugo Drax]

Over on pprune, where pilots have a forum, several have mentioned stories along these lines. In fact, it wasn't until several years ago where a missed approach would result in disciplinary action!

The Korean Air 747 that crashed shortly after takeoff from Heathrow is another story that illustrates terrible Cockpit Resource Management. For cultural reasons, junior pilots just will not speak up even if there lives are about to end. I don't say that lightly, this was confirmed with cockpit voice recordings and it appears that even with 4 pilots in the cockpit of the SFO crash, the other three pilots were virtually silent.

It appears only one spoke up, recommending more thrust at about 4 seconds before the crash, but their fate was sealed by then. It takes about 2 seconds for the engines to spool up and deliver the increased thrust once they push the thrust controller forward.

My guess, or rather hope, is this will be the last straw if in fact poor Cockpit Resource Management is proven, and they overhaul that part of the training.

Well I keep hearing Asian drivers are not good, well I guess it goes to say with airplanes also. :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

 

[TangoJuliet]

IIRC the vertical stabilizer ripped off because of excessive force put on it due to the pilot/copilot making repeated and alternating movements with the rudder.

Yes. FO flipped out over some wake they were getting and over stressed the airplane.

There may have been 4 pilots on board the SFO accident but only 2 were in the flight deck.

 

[K1052]

There may have been 4 pilots on board the SFO accident but only 2 were in the flight deck.

The reports I had seen put at least 3 of the pilots on the flight deck for this.

 

[Svnla]

Well I keep hearing Asian drivers are not good, well I guess it goes to say with airplanes also. :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Yup, those darn Asians with faked names to pretend to be whites = http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/13/nyregion/13crash.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 :whiste:

Continental Airlines said the pilot of the flight, Continental Connection Flight 3407, was Capt. Marvin Renslow, 47, from Lutz, Fla.; the first officer was Rebecca Shaw;

 

[coxmaster]

The reports I had seen put at least 3 of the pilots on the flight deck for this.

It doesnt really matter if there were 3 pilots physically in the cockpit. Only 2 of the pilots were part of the crew. The third pilot (or fourth for that matter) was sitting in the jumpseat, so his entire job is to sit there, shut up, and let the crew work..

 

[BUTCH1]

Do you know why the vertical stabilizer ripped off?

Yea, it's been pretty well documented his excessive rudder inputs overstressed the airframes design limitations causing the separation, had he just used the airlions and kept the plane level that crash would have never happened..

 

[DanTMWTMP]

http://www.newsday.com/opinion/oped...es-flight-214-a-pilot-s-perspective-1.5647734 Great article, from a perspective of a veteran airline pilot. Everyone should read this.

 

[techie81]

http://www.newsday.com/opinion/oped...es-flight-214-a-pilot-s-perspective-1.5647734 Great article, from a perspective of a veteran airline pilot. Everyone should read this.

Great article! Thanks for sharing that.

 

[runzwithsizorz]

LOL, why the hell does your wife bring 5 grand worth of jewelry in her suitcase? On her person I could see maybe.

My wife leaves all her valuable stuff at home in the safe when we travel. Even her diamond rings.

Even still, 5 thousand dollars worth of luggage isn't worth risking the lives of everyone else on the plane. If your wife wants to die in a fireball while she gets her luggage, then she can wait until everyone else disembarks before she grabs her bag.

Often it is a small bag within an over-sized purse at her feet, or by her side, not in the overhead bins. By all accounts the people on this aircraft exited a lot like they normally do, with people in the aisles lined up, so why not grab some of your stuff? You are lucky to have a wife that would stay at, and dine at, a place such as the Breakers in an evening gown with plastic jewelry. Most *adult* women would not.

 

[Printer Bandit]

if this was pilot error, i'm sure the passengers would get a good payout from the airline on top of insurance.

 

[DanTMWTMP]

http://www.sfgate.com/news/world/article/Asiana-attendant-describes-dramatic-evacuation-4651634.php Another very cool article. I love the human stories in disasters. Articles like this, and the one I posted a few posts above should gain a LOT more exposure.

 

[rh71]

has it been discussed how the 2 chinese girls got ejected? Were they sitting at the tail? Out of over 300 people, only 2 being ejected?

 

[davmat787]

Yes. FO flipped out over some wake they were getting and over stressed the airplane.

There may have been 4 pilots on board the SFO accident but only 2 were in the flight deck.

For a flight as long as Seoul-SFO, there would have been two crews. On most 777's, there is a crew rest area above where First Class usually is. The crew rest is usually accessed by steep stairs behind a door just outside the cockpit.

Inside are two or more beds, and two or more business class type seats. Along with curtains, maybe IFE screen, communications, .etc. While the ceiling is a little low, it is a very nice area that allows the crew not currently flying to sleep so they are qualified to change over to command.

 

[rh71]

Insurance?



Unless you feel your wife is only worth $5000... all that shit is replaceable.

I can see both sides. If it was frantic in there with fire raging then you're going to forget about your small fortune in a bag nearby. If people are standing around lining up to get out, you're going to make sure you have that expensive bag on you.

 

[davmat787]

has it been discussed how the 2 chinese girls got ejected? Were they sitting at the tail? Out of over 300 people, only 2 being ejected?

From one picture I have seen, it appears the rear pressure bulkhead was torn lose along the bottom portion upon contact with the seawall. Perhaps the flooring along with attached seating was also torn loose and ejected from the aircraft during what would have been an incredibly violent and high energy impact.

Also, it is not confirmed from what I understand that both Chinese girls were ejected. It appears one was for sure, but the other might have been unfortunately killed by a rescue vehicle. Or, ejected from the aircraft AND runover, as horrible as that is to contemplate.

 

[davmat787]

I can see both sides. If it was frantic in there with fire raging then you're going to forget about your small fortune in a bag nearby. If people are standing around lining up to get out, you're going to make sure you have that expensive bag on you.

Which would be an incredibly selfish thing to do. During an emergency vacate of an aircraft, ALL passengers are able to disembark within 90 seconds per FAA certifications. Six doors and slides are opened, it is not like a normal landing and all passengers file out one door to the jetway.

In my opinion, and every person who is an actual aviation professional, there is NO EXCUSE for grabbing your luggage after an accident like this, even if your bag cost $5000.

There are photos showing some passengers carrying 2 bags and more with them right after the slide. That would no doubt slow things down, the aisle is only so wide.

I only hope those people did such an incredibly selfish act through shock, and not selfishness and greed.

 

[rh71]

^ I wouldn't have expensive things in a large luggage overhead. I don't excuse that. I'd have it in my backpack, which would be at my feet, which would be easy to carry off unless it was tossed away from me.

 

[Number1]

Which would be an incredibly selfish thing to do. During an emergency vacate of an aircraft, ALL passengers are able to disembark within 90 seconds per FAA certifications. Six doors and slides are opened, it is not like a normal landing and all passengers file out one door to the jetway.

In my opinion, and every person who is an actual aviation professional, there is NO EXCUSE for grabbing your luggage after an accident like this, even if your bag cost $5000.

There are photos showing some passengers carrying 2 bags and more with them right after the slide. That would no doubt slow things down, the aisle is only so wide.

I only hope those people did such an incredibly selfish act through shock, and not selfishness and greed.

I think they would be doing it because of ignorance and because many of those piece of luggage would have fallen out of the bin and into the pathway.

That's my theory anyway.

 

[Number1]

^ I wouldn't have expensive things in a large luggage overhead. I don't excuse that. I'd have it in my backpack, which would be at my feet, which would be easy to carry off unless it was tossed away from me.

And that's the point, the extra few seconds you and all the others spent picking those things up could mean the difference between life and death for you or somebody else.

 

[Nintendesert]

And that's the point, the extra few seconds you and all the others spent picking those things up could mean the difference between life and death for you or somebody else.

Let's do the math, if everyone takes 1 additional second to grab their shit, that's 307 seconds. Over 5 minutes.

Leave the crap people, it adds up quickly and people can die. Luckily nobody else burned while people grab bag after bag of shit. One guy said he got his luggage before his damn kid.

Disgusting people.

 

[tynopik]

Let's do the math, if everyone takes 1 additional second to grab their shit, that's 307 seconds. Over 5 minutes.

luckily, people can work in parallel, so it's only 1 second total

 

[Craig234]

has it been discussed how the 2 chinese girls got ejected? Were they sitting at the tail? Out of over 300 people, only 2 being ejected?

It's reported they were at the back.

Details on the vehicle impact unclear.

 

[davmat787]

It's reported they were at the back of the plane.

Not easy to be ejected with those seat belts on I'd think.

Assuming they had their seat belts on of course. And they are only as good as the seats they are attached to, which are only as good as the structure the seats are attached to. And that structure was severely compromised by hitting the seawall.

But, after looking at the photographs, there appears to be 15 to 20 feet or so of fuselage between the last row, and the compromised rear pressure bulkhead. It will be morbid, but interesting, to see how this aspect of the accident actually happened.

inb4 Craig234 ninja edit. :ninja:

 

[rh71]

Let's do the math, if everyone takes 1 additional second to grab their shit, that's 307 seconds. Over 5 minutes.

Did they have to call out when they were done so the next person can take their turn?

Did people have to complete the act of standing up then reach back down or could they not do that at the same time either? Imagine yourself in that scenario... your backpack is right there in front of you and you decide to leave it instead. Really, 1 second and you weren't in the aisle yet. People are doing some serious monday-morning quarterbacking by the book here. Overhead luggage you definitely leave, I'm not debating that.