780/770 sales appear slow

[SirPauly]

I am not sure what's happening with this forum. I've been following AT for so long and I recall PC "enthusiasts" doing everything possible to extra maximum value, such as buying Albatron GeForce 4200Ti with its 3.3ns memory and overclocking it to match or pass GeForce 4600, 9500Pro unlock into a 9700, 6800 Non-ultra pixel pipeline unlock, X800GTO2 unlock, 6800GT overclocking from 350mhz to 425mhz, GTX460/470/560Ti overclocking not long ago. All of a sudden, the term enthusiast means throwing more $$$ at a problem, not at all what it meant in the past.

Why in our forum where we buy K series Intel CPUs, Noctua NH-D14/Phanteks/Silver Arrows/H100s, do TIM roundups and try to find 1-2*C drops in temperatures, CPU de-lidding, MSI Afterburner voltage unlocks, all of a sudden when it's most convenient to ignore, people ignore HD7970's easy overclocking that has been available from day 1?

1) HD7970 OC in the hands of "enthusiasts" was at or near the top of the fastest GPU from Jan 2012 until the day Titan launched, outside of select few GTX680 Lightnings with modded bioses that cost $580-600. And if you watercooled it and it reached 1350mhz+, then you basically had GTX780 level of performance 18 months ago. You keep ignoring this on AT forum. Is this forum turning into TigerDirect or BestBuy now? It sure seems that way.

2) HD7970 OC delivered far better performance/$ over GTX580 OC than GTX680 did over 7970, GTX780 did over 7970GE or Titan did over 7970GE. Again, knowing 7970 was factory underclocked at 925mhz and many people hit 1050-1100mhz on stock voltage alone, and AMD provided FREE 7970GE bios upgrade to 7970 owners, and the fact that 7970 has dual BIOSes which means it's 100% risk free to flash it with a 1.05ghz 7970GE bios, you still ignore 7970's overclocking 18 months ago.

So if you accept that HD7970 was weak in price/performance, then following it, this entire generation is even worse. How in the world do you keep ignoring that HD7970 OC delivered 40-80% more performance when overclocked compared to a GTX580 OC for $100 and yet no single card since January 2012 has brought that much increase in price/performance?

Looking at GTX770/780/Titan and existing prices of HD7970GE, all of these cards are now overpriced. When GTX480 launched at $499, about 1.5 years later you could pick one up for $175-225 on Newegg. Again, if you thought HD7970 vs. 580 brought weak price/performance for a $100 premium, then everything else since then has been simply awful. GTX770 at stock can't convincingly beat an 11 months old 7970GE and NV's AIB needed factory overclocked versions to surpass it. Sure it comes with a $100 price drop from the 680 but it's been 15 months since 680 launched.

Some posters are more consistent than others - - you now are defending the 549 MSRP price point with vigor and a great deal and for me it was an example and starting point of more-so evolutionary incremental price/performance on a substantial and significant node and arch -- felt the same with nVidia products over-all.

How can the HD 7970 be a great deal worth strongly defending or with such vigor when it was being compared to a 14+ month old, 40nm, already heavily premium price GTX 580 sku that didn't really price drop? Didn't really redefine price/performance over-all based on about a 50 percent increase in MSRP! A nice choice? Sure! A welcomed choice? Sure? Did it have strengths? Absolutely! A great deal? Possibly to some but now more-so gamers paying more premium for performance -- no free rides.

What it was to me, was AMD had a window of opportunity and competitive advantage thanks to their engineering and execution prowess and softened their commitment to the sweet spot strategy for more premiums to help the bottom line. A win-win for gamer and company, with gamer receiving the fastest GPU on the planet, the latest--and-greatest and company enjoying more awareness and potentially higher revenue, margins and income.

Where another strength of the HD 7970 was with multi-monitor gaming compared to the HD 6970 and GTX 580 and why it was a welcomed choice for many as well.

I'm happy to see more price/performance with 28nm with the GTX 770 based on it has been one of my constructive nit-picks!

 

[SirPauly]

Hey that's my line...

danced a jig in Santa Clara

Also used dancing at nVidia head quarters in Santa Clara, too and to my surprise there actually was dancing and jigging:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJBKa48hyfM

 

[RussianSensation]

I onwed a Ti4600, not a Ti4200...stop posting like ENTHUSIAST forums are about bargain deals, when most of enthusisast have 1 prime consern:

Without even knowing your GPU history, you likely owned the 285 and 580 as well. If that makes you happy, that's great, just don't get upset when people point out that Albatron 4200 Turbo provided 95% of the max overclocked 4600 for hundreds of dollars less or that GTX780 oc provides 96-100% of the performance of Titan oc for hundreds less. Being an enthusiast is not about finding bargain basement deals but also not about being wasteful like spending $1000 on an Intel Extreme Edition CPU that gets outperformed by a $225 one in games, and then bring up the fact since you are enthusiast, performance is most important thing. Does not compute.

PERFORMANCE!!!

That's ironic considering that 990X OC is more than 3-4% slower than any of the overclocked 2500K/2600K/2700K/3570K/3770K/4670K/4770K CPUs. That means 2500K @ 4.6ghz + GTX780 OC SLI would beat your system in 99.9% of games for less than it cost for one of your 990X and Titan. It's good to know there are users like MrK6, toyota and myself that can point out to the new generation of PC gamers how NOT to waste their hard-earned $$ on PC components and get 95% of the performance for thousands of dollars less or 80% more performance than your system for less money still. I am sure NV and Intel love you though. :thumbsup:

Some of us ignore AMD products for a very simple reason: Crossfire sucks and so do their drivers. For that fact alone I won't consider AMD until they can prove they have made huge strides. And I speak from experience having used Crossfire + AMD drivers extensively the last 3-4 years.

If you followed our forum closely, most of us have been recommending SLI over CF over the last 3-4 years. If you intend to go SLI, and in your case with $2,000 GPUs, then NV is the only reasonable option. No one claims otherwise. At the same time you represent 0.05% of the GPU market with 2 Titans. For a power user such as yourself, NV has been the best option since 8800GTX SLI.

Some posters are more consistent than others - - you now are defending the 549 MSRP price point with vigor and a great deal and for me it was an example and starting point of more-so evolutionary incremental price/performance on a substantial and significant node and arch -- felt the same with nVidia products over-all.

You guys keep bringing up 7970's launch price for what seems like every other week. Like I said, 7970 vs. 6970 or 580 brought more than any other card since then in price/performance, despite 7970 being overpriced at launch. If you are going to rip 7970's initial pricing apart, then you can't start talking about how 770 brings excellent price/performance 18 months later because 7970 GE offered that performance for $70 more 12 months ago!!! It's not consistent and I pointed it out. If you are going to rip 7970's price/performance as being incremental, then GTX770 has to be an utter failure in comparison.

How can the HD 7970 be a great deal worth strongly defending or with such vigor when it was being compared to a 14+ month old, 40nm, already heavily premium price GTX 580 sku that didn't really price drop? Didn't really redefine price/performance over-all based on about a 50 percent increase in MSRP!

Again, see what you just did there. You just compared 7970 to a GTX580 and yet compared 7970's price to HD6970's price. Once again you are being completely inconsistent. If you want to talk about HD7970 vs. 6970 on price/performance level, then let's talk about how an 1180mhz HD7970 is 79% faster than an HD6970 at 1600P.

You and others keep doing this over and over - you talk about HD7970's MSRP price increase over HD6970 and then compare a stock HD7970's performance to the GTX580. Why do you keep you comparing 7970's price increase to the 6970, ignoring overclocking it had, and then comparing it to the 14 months old 580 on performance?

You keep saying AMD brought an incremental increase but that's relative what you were upgrading from. I got my 6950 2GB for $230 and unlocked it instead of wasting $500 on a GTX580 and holding on to it. Then I sold the 6950 and got HD7970 for $450. After I overclocked the 7970, I am getting 75% more performance over the 6950 @ 6970 unlock for $220 increase in price. You are saying this is nothing special, considering the 780 now costs $650 for a 15-25% increase in performance, maybe 40-45% when max OC against 7970 @ 1150mhz? There is a reason many people on our forums skip the top cards and upgrade more frequently. Now you see why that gives the most bang for the buck for upgrades because it took NV 12 months to barely beat a 7970 @ 1150mhz with $400 GTX770 max OC. Woops, I had that performance 12 months ago for $50 more, and 3GB of VRAM. Lame.

What it was to me, was AMD had a window of opportunity and competitive advantage thanks to their engineering and execution prowess and softened their commitment to the sweet spot strategy for more premiums to help the bottom line.

HD7950 OC provided a high end sweet spot strategy for the last 12 months. A $280-300 card that beat $450 HD7970GE and $470-550 GTX680, yet, you hardly recommended it. HD7970GE technically is still a "sweet spot" strategy compared to the 780/Titan and cost less than 680 despite being faster since July 2012 and again you didn't recommend it.

As far as this forum goes, GTX460 become of the best values in PC gaming during Fermi generation since it could trade blows with HD5870 when overclocked. All of a sudden, HD7850/7950/7970 overclocking has gone more or less downplayed/ignored this generation by many people who tend to buy NV cards. Are some of you guys getting too old to overclock or forgot how to that you'd rather spend $450-500 on GPUs that are barely 16% faster than a $280 overclocked 7950? :sneaky: (before you ask, the reason I got the 7970 over 7950 is for mining performance, not gaming performance).

 

[BallaTheFeared]

I went for the 7950 because I think like RS, but I also understand other people think differently!

Not a lot of people agreed with my choice of 470s, despite showing their ability to match or sometimes exceed 580 SLI stock performance for less than half the price.

It depends on who has what advantage which then becomes which advantage means something.

With Fermi if you recall it was perf/w and perf/mm2 and a bunch of other garbage, however once 28nm rolled in and Kepler mid-range was toasting AMD in both those segments, overclocking above all else even at the cost of accelerated decline in perf/w was the de facto standard by which EVERYONE needed to agree upon or be labeled "bias"... Often by the very same people who if Kepler was AMD and Tahiti was Nvidia would argue the exact opposite position and visa versa.

 

[SirPauly]

HD7970GE technically is still a "sweet spot" strategy compared to the 780/Titan

Talk about spin.

 

[96Firebird]

RS spinning things? Say it ain't so! D:

 

[Lonbjerg]

If you only care about performance, what was your card before the titan?

GTX580...I even owned a GTX480....I don't give a *beep* about consumer metreics....but AMD fans seems to do...guess what that tells me? ^^
But I stated when GK104 cam out that I wans't into midrange GPU...I would wait for BigK....and I did

 

[sushiwarrior]

GTX580...I even owned a GTX480....I don't give a *beep* about consumer metreics....but AMD fans seems to do...guess what that tells me? ^^
But I stated when GK104 cam out that I wans't into midrange GPU...I would wait for BigK....and I did

That you have a difficult time choosing anything for yourself, or thinking for yourself, and like to fix the problem by throwing money at whoever charges more for their high end GPU?

 

[Lonbjerg]

That you have a difficult time choosing anything for yourself, or thinking for yourself, and like to fix the problem by throwing money at whoever charges more for their high end GPU?

I'm willing to pay for the best...enjoy mediocre land...I guess Price/perf matter to people with low income *shrugs*

 

[SlowSpyder]

I onwed a Ti4600, not a Ti4200...stop posting like ENTHUSIAST forums are about bargain deals, when most of enthusisast have 1 prime consern:

PERFORMANCE!!!

You would be good in Best Buy I think.

If all you care about is performance, did you buy a 7970 when it was the fastest card?

 

[Will Robinson]

HD7990 lays the smack on your aging Titan Lonny.
Time to trade up?

 

[SirPauly]

I went for the 7950 because I think like RS, but I also understand other people think differently!

It's a fine choice -- strong price/performance now, 3 gigs of default ram, and potentially nice OC headroom but more importantly nice scaling! AMD is working harder than ever with developer relations, drivers are maturing based on it was a new architecture, smooth awareness was welcomed because gamers from both nVidia and AMD may enjoy smoother gaming.

Very compelling choices from AMD and has strengths.

At 449, the HD7950 offered a more-so evolutionary and incremental price performance while being a substantial and significant node and arch. However, the choice was still very welcomed based on it did bring more choice and strengths to the market.

 

[thilanliyan]

I'm willing to pay for the best...enjoy mediocre land...I guess Price/perf matter to people with low income *shrugs*

There are some people that can't afford high end video cards, and there are others that don't want to spend so much on high end video cards. There is a difference, and you shouldn't assume people not praising Titan belong to the "can't afford it" group. I've spent a lot more on cars than I have on video cards....not because I can't afford the video cards, but my priorities lie elsewhere.

 

[Eureka]

It's a fine choice -- strong price/performance now, 3 gigs of default ram, and potentially nice OC headroom but more importantly nice scaling! AMD is working harder than ever with developer relations, drivers are maturing based on it was a new architecture, smooth awareness was welcomed because gamers from both nVidia and AMD may enjoy smoother gaming.

Very compelling choices from AMD and has strengths.

At 449, the HD7950 offered a more-so evolutionary and incremental price performance while being a substantial and significant node and arch. However, the choice was still very welcomed based on it did bring more choice and strengths to the market.

Unfortunately, AMD still doesn't have a good top-end offering or a good mGPU solution.

I just got a second 7950 to xfire as a stop-gap solution to get to 120 FPS without having to shell out for a 780 or 690... and so far I'm still trying to figure out what everything is doing. And 40 FPS on xfire is a non-stop stutterfest. It's reasons like this that make the 780 look more and more appealing ($650 vs $500-600 for 2x 7950, but at least I don't have to fiddle with it)

 

[Fastx]

Eureka you should go to OCN forums there are a lot of 7x CF users there and can help you with your problems whether its settings in CCC and/or using Radeon Pro. They are pretty cool over there and I'm sure will help you out if you need help. I have read a ton of posts over there on CF and I'd say most guys over there who know how to tweak it are very happy with CF when tweaked correctly. Of course a few games you might have to drop down to one card (like FC3) by un checking one card in the CCC if your unhappy how that game runs. Most popular games these guys are happy with CF. From what I have seen that forum has the most 7x CF users.

One more thing if you post over there look for the CF user thread and I would post in there if you need help.

 

[rolodomo]

Well....the 770 should help with 680 prices, but darn, people just haven't faced reality yet.

I was trying to snag a couple of used 680(s) from e-bay and the seller seems very reluctant to come down on price. I can understand an individual person putting up a lot of resistance to unforeseen price reduction, but what is the deal with the retailers? Are the retailers really this slow to adjust to the new 680 pricing reality or are they intentionally looking to sell to the "unaware" types for a bit longer?

Thanks goodness the 770 and 7970 are both widely available, it will have to create some good used deals soon.

 

[Aeiou]

IT'S OVER, NVIDIA IS FINISHED

You know i'm right, i've got anecdotal evidence as proof.

 

[Lepton87]

As far as OC goes for GF cards, I don't count on it at all, I never had a card that Overclocked well. I had 2x7970GHz and neither could do 1100MHz, now I have a Titan and it can't be OCed by more then 5%. Earlier I had 6950@6970 that also couldn't be overclocked by more then a few %. My last card that overclocked by more then 10% was 5870. In the earlier days I counted on some BIOS modes, I had X800pro VIVO@X800XT because those were they same cards with different bioses. None of the cards I had overclocked by any meaningful amount and I had lots of cards. I had 680GTO that could be overclocked to 680GTX clocks and beyond, but as was the case with X800PRO VIVO those were the same cards.

 

[SolMiester]

I dont think anyone would disagree that the 7970 is a fine bit of kit and still is, however the fact remains, its taken god knows how many driver releases to get there and it still has issues. It was faster than the 580 at release, but not that much for the premium AMD laid on it IMO, and it should of been faster at the new node.
I just wish AMD had a better software team, so they could deliver a product with aplomb.
AMD is lucky to have such enthusiasts who dont mind spending time to get the right drivers for their game\configuration.
just my 2c

 

[Lepton87]

I dont think anyone would disagree that the 7970 is a fine bit of kit and still is, however the fact remains, its taken god knows how many driver releases to get there and it still has issues. It was faster than the 580 at release, but not that much for the premium AMD laid on it IMO, and it should of been faster at the new node.
I just wish AMD had a better software team, so they could deliver a product with aplomb.
AMD is lucky to have such enthusiasts who dont mind spending time to get the right drivers for their game\configuration.
just my 2c

It's not like NV was any different. A real high-end card came very late and with an astronomical 1000$ price tag. (No counting m-gpus)

 

[Elfear]

With Fermi if you recall it was perf/w and perf/mm2 and a bunch of other garbage, however once 28nm rolled in and Kepler mid-range was toasting AMD in both those segments,

I'm not sure if you understand what "toasting" means.

Source (launch of GTX 680)

I dont think anyone would disagree that the 7970 is a fine bit of kit and still is, however the fact remains, its taken god knows how many driver releases to get there and it still has issues.

Could you specify which issues you're talking about?

It was faster than the 580 at release, but not that much for the premium AMD laid on it IMO, and it should of been faster at the new node.

This generation was rather lackluster at launch but the same complaint can be said of the 680 and derivatives as well.

I just wish AMD had a better software team, so they could deliver a product with aplomb.
AMD is lucky to have such enthusiasts who dont mind spending time to get the right drivers for their game\configuration.
just my 2c

With CF I will agree with you to some degree. Out of the box SLI works better. To generalize all AMD cards into that statement though is misleading. I had very few if any issues when I bought my 7970 at launch. Fired it up, overclocked it, and played games. I've had no more problems than with any other Nvidia or AMD card I've owned in the past.

 

[thilanliyan]

I dont think anyone would disagree that the 7970 is a fine bit of kit and still is, however the fact remains, its taken god knows how many driver releases to get there and it still has issues.

I bought my first 7950 in April of last year...haven't had any issues with it since then. Which single card issues are you referring to?

 

[Kenmitch]

I dont think anyone would disagree that the 7970 is a fine bit of kit and still is, however the fact remains, its taken god knows how many driver releases to get there and it still has issues. It was faster than the 580 at release, but not that much for the premium AMD laid on it IMO, and it should of been faster at the new node.
I just wish AMD had a better software team, so they could deliver a product with aplomb.
AMD is lucky to have such enthusiasts who dont mind spending time to get the right drivers for their game\configuration.
just my 2c

AMD is lucky to be alive. They've been getting bang banged for years by both Intel and Nvidia. Those guys are hard hitters as we all know.

Gotta give them some respect for being competitive on both sides of the battle front.

 

[SolMiester]

It's not like NV was any different. A real high-end card came very late and with an astronomical 1000$ price tag. (No counting m-gpus)

Did you even read the post?....NV is miles ahead of AMD when it comes to releasing products...WTF are you talking about high end cards for?...Im talking about drivers, software, OOB experience, marketing and product delivery. All of which AMD is a runner up in!

 

[SolMiester]

I'm not sure if you understand what "toasting" means.

Source (launch of GTX 680)



Could you specify which issues you're talking about?

This generation was rather lackluster at launch but the same complaint can be said of the 680 and derivatives as well.

With CF I will agree with you to some degree. Out of the box SLI works better. To generalize all AMD cards into that statement though is misleading. I had very few if any issues when I bought my 7970 at launch. Fired it up, overclocked it, and played games. I've had no more problems than with any other Nvidia or AMD card I've owned in the past.

The drivers now as apposed to release drivers now give you twice the perf increase that it had on day one against the 580...and probably over a dozen releases, some which broke function and some that fixed previous broken functions...Thats why I said, delivering the product with aplomb, and that they are lucky their fans are willing to spend such time identifying the drivers that work for their setup...