7800GS AGP reviews...

[imported_Com80787]

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: Com80787
"You are getting 7800GT which is about 30% faster than 7800GS and future upgrade path for PCIe. I would say that is worth a slight increase in price. "

How are you getting an upgrade path? So you dump a 754 AGP board and get a $70+ 754 PCIe board. You call that an upgrade path? Or do you have insider information that AMD is going to revive socket 754?

Of course if you are suggesting people still on 754 and old vid cards dump the mobo, AND the cpu, AND get a 7800GT that's a ton of cash to be putting down all at once. Cash that person probably doesn't have or they would be away from 754 and AGP already.

How do you get an upgrade path? Well, 1 year down the road, when the new direct X 10 gpus come out for PCI-E only, then it is an upgrade path isn't it? You have lost all credability with that post thank you.

You're still not seeing the big picture. You think there is an upgrade path moving from a socket 754 AGP mobo to a socket 754 PCIe mobo? (which is clearly the situation I was addressing in my original post)

I've lost all credibility? Using your "upgrade path" it is true you would then have a PCIe slot for your directx 10 video card. But are you REALLY going to get that nice shiny DX10 card only to combine it with an aging socket 754 CPU? By then the next generation of AMD CPUs will be out and even socket 939 will be obsolete. So you'll be sitcking that top of the line DX10 card in to a two generation old mobo/cpu system. Great idea. Sure to get the most out of your investment with that plan.

Sounds like a great "upgrade path" to me.

In order to have a REAL "upgrade path" the ONLY option for those with socket 754 or socket A systems is to get a socket 939 mobo, a new 939 CPU to go with it, (which at this point is still a bad idea considering the next socket from AMD is just around the corner), a PCIe video card, AND potentially a new PSU.

The 7800GS was not intended for those who already are current enough with a 939 mobo. It was intended for those are still on socket 754/socket A and either 1. Don't have the cash needed to bring themselves up to PCIe/939 at this point in time or 2. Don't see the need to ditch still decent performing solutions they have already invested in. That's why it's not a 7800GTX in terms of performance. (I was surprised to see complaints about that) Who would need that much performance on an outdated socket 754 or socket A system.

Anyway - Believe it or not there are people who buy last gen hardware rather than bleeding edge hardware because it's much less costly and still gives them the performance they need. What you need to realize is that just because a 7800GS is not good for YOU doesn't mean it's not good for others in different economic and practical situations.

When you are using the latest CPU/mobo offerings with the latest DX10 video card there will be people who are just then buying socket 939 and the former top performing DX9 video cards. (Heck I'm still using a Radeon 9700) You should realize this before you go on and on about 7800GS being so bad.

 

[imported_Com80787]

Originally posted by: CKXP

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: Com80787
"You are getting 7800GT which is about 30% faster than 7800GS and future upgrade path for PCIe. I would say that is worth a slight increase in price. "

How are you getting an upgrade path? So you dump a 754 AGP board and get a $70+ 754 PCIe board. You call that an upgrade path? Or do you have insider information that AMD is going to revive socket 754?
Of course if you are suggesting people still on 754 and old vid cards dump the mobo, AND the cpu, AND get a 7800GT that's a ton of cash to be putting down all at once. Cash that person probably doesn't have or they would be away from 754 and AGP already.

How do you get an upgrade path? Well, 1 year down the road, when the new direct X 10 gpus come out for PCI-E only, then it is an upgrade path isn't it? You have lost all credability with that post thank you.

i think his argument is with the upgrade path that s754 offers(by the way which is far from dead)...i agree with some members that it is easier to upgrade a GPU, than it is to upgrade a CPU, and motherboard as well. i also agree with Hacp and RussianSensation that PCIe is the only real GPU upgrade option. you can be buy a 7800gs AGP and ride it out for a year or so and that's fine, but what option will you have after that your or so is over?

You will have the same option now - going to PCIe and socket 939 - but it will be MUCH cheaper to do so 18 months from now (when the next socket, CPU class, and DX10 video cards are out thus bringing down current socket 939 mobo/cpu/video card costs) than it is today and riding out that time on a Geforce 7800GS will make those 18 months much more tolerable.

BTW - when I say 754 is "dead" I don't mean totally worthless.... I simply mean if you are already using a 754 mobo/cpu it's not very likely your next mobo/cpu will be 754 based.

 

[imported_Com80787]

Originally posted by: Hacp
huge rippoff Nvidia. Get the 7800GT for around 280 AR and the PCI-E 754 mobo for 60 bucks. You will get better performance. Nvidia can introduce the 7800GTX to the AGP market just fine, but it decided no to and left us with this crap.

Why on earth would you need 7800GTX performance for users who are still using AGP mobos? (read: users who are likely to be using outdated CPUs and thus why they are still using AGP) Or do you think mixing a 7800GTX and Athlon XP would be practical?

People just don't seem to understand what market this card is for. It's intended to throw a bone to the people who are using outdated hardware and can not upgrade to the newest bleeding edge hardware due to economical or practical issues.

For people who are tight for cash throwing away $60 to get a similar card on a different slot isn't a good use of resources. I work for a living and I don't survive by throwing away money. I realize there are people on this forum who have mommy and daddy get them the latest toys, but some of us actually work for a living and have other expenses to make room for. That means we get last gen hardware instead of the bleeding edge, and for the most part we are just fine with it.

 

[CKXP]

Originally posted by: Com80787

Originally posted by: CKXP

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: Com80787
"You are getting 7800GT which is about 30% faster than 7800GS and future upgrade path for PCIe. I would say that is worth a slight increase in price. "

How are you getting an upgrade path? So you dump a 754 AGP board and get a $70+ 754 PCIe board. You call that an upgrade path? Or do you have insider information that AMD is going to revive socket 754?
Of course if you are suggesting people still on 754 and old vid cards dump the mobo, AND the cpu, AND get a 7800GT that's a ton of cash to be putting down all at once. Cash that person probably doesn't have or they would be away from 754 and AGP already.

How do you get an upgrade path? Well, 1 year down the road, when the new direct X 10 gpus come out for PCI-E only, then it is an upgrade path isn't it? You have lost all credability with that post thank you.

i think his argument is with the upgrade path that s754 offers(by the way which is far from dead)...i agree with some members that it is easier to upgrade a GPU, than it is to upgrade a CPU, and motherboard as well. i also agree with Hacp and RussianSensation that PCIe is the only real GPU upgrade option. you can be buy a 7800gs AGP and ride it out for a year or so and that's fine, but what option will you have after that your or so is over?

You will have the same option now - going to PCIe and socket 939 - but it will be MUCH cheaper to do so 18 months from now (when the next socket, CPU class, and DX10 video cards are out thus bringing down current socket 939 mobo/cpu/video card costs) than it is today and riding out that time on a Geforce 7800GS will make those 18 months much more tolerable.

BTW - when I say 754 is "dead" I don't mean totally worthless.... I simply mean if you are already using a 754 mobo/cpu it's not very likely your next mobo/cpu will be 754 based.

my point is one way or another, whether you do it now or later, PCIe will come into your life if you want a better GPU solution compared to the 7800GS.

you are very much the optimistic....it's all about supply and demand. a year from now do you think that the s939 prices will be found at such a dramatically low price because SocketM2 is out...in many cases A64 s754 CPU's(exclude semprons) cost just as much as there s939 counterparts, look at a 3700 clawhammer for $319, supply and demand keeps these prices up. a lot of folks will be trying jump ship to s939, because of M2, and the prices for s939 will stay steady because of the demand for those CPU's...i'm not saying that s939 prices won't drop within a years time, but don't expect nothing dramatic compared to where they are now.

 

[SoundTheSurrender]

I also think that the technology transition right now is still a not very exciting. Getting the latest stuff is not that much more preforming than the xp generation + a 7800GS or =.

Sata isn't much better than IDE, DDR is still being used instead of ddr2. AGP still has life in it from the tests I see compared to PCIx scores. Windows XP 64bit still sucks also, the 7800Gs is a awesome investment to keep on gaming, I don't care what you guys say that are trying to justify your 1500+ dollar gaming rigs now.

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: Com80787

Originally posted by: Hacp
huge rippoff Nvidia. Get the 7800GT for around 280 AR and the PCI-E 754 mobo for 60 bucks. You will get better performance. Nvidia can introduce the 7800GTX to the AGP market just fine, but it decided no to and left us with this crap.

Why on earth would you need 7800GTX performance for users who are still using AGP mobos? (read: users who are likely to be using outdated CPUs and thus why they are still using AGP) Or do you think mixing a 7800GTX and Athlon XP would be practical?

People just don't seem to understand what market this card is for. It's intended to throw a bone to the people who are using outdated hardware and can not upgrade to the newest bleeding edge hardware due to economical or practical issues.

For people who are tight for cash throwing away $60 to get a similar card on a different slot isn't a good use of resources. I work for a living and I don't survive by throwing away money. I realize there are people on this forum who have mommy and daddy get them the latest toys, but some of us actually work for a living and have other expenses to make room for. That means we get last gen hardware instead of the bleeding edge, and for the most part we are just fine with it.

My Athlon 64 @ 2.6 GHz, 2 GB of RAM, and AGP motherboard and video card are offended by that.

 

[v8envy]

An over $300 mainstream-level AGP card makes no sense. It really doesn't. I don't care if the X850XT in AGP is over $350 again, the retailers can keep those things until the Smithsonian wants them.

The 70% with AGP have pretty low end boxes, comparatively speaking. They're not hooked up to $1000 monitors. 1280x1024 is probably all their 17" 25ms LCD is capable of. So really, a $150 6600GT, X1600Pro or $220 6800GS is all they 'need.'

You can't have an e-penis competition with that 1-2 year old Dell. And anyone value concious enough to keep the obsolete box rather than try to sidegrade it to get the best bang for their video card buck is not going to spurt $350 out of their wallet for a few more max frames/sec than they'd get with a $220 card.

What's more likely is more motherboard manufacturers will support older sockets with PCIe. A $60 sidegrade for a new motherboard doesn't look all that bad when you consider the difference between the $190 PCIe 6800GS and equivalent performing $300 7600GS AGP.

Now, if the $350 bought a 7800 GT at the same specs as the PCIe version, that may have been different. $350 for an enthusiast card in agp, sure. $350 for mainstream performance, heck no.

 

[imported_JamesDax]

Originally posted by: v8envy
An over $300 mainstream-level AGP card makes no sense. It really doesn't. I don't care if the X850XT in AGP is over $350 again, the retailers can keep those things until the Smithsonian wants them.

The 70% with AGP have pretty low end boxes, comparatively speaking. They're not hooked up to $1000 monitors. 1280x1024 is probably all their 17" 25ms LCD is capable of. So really, a $150 6600GT, X1600Pro or $220 6800GS is all they 'need.'

You can't have an e-penis competition with that 1-2 year old Dell. And anyone value concious enough to keep the obsolete box rather than try to sidegrade it to get the best bang for their video card buck is not going to spurt $350 out of their wallet for a few more max frames/sec than they'd get with a $220 card.

What's more likely is more motherboard manufacturers will support older sockets with PCIe. A $60 sidegrade for a new motherboard doesn't look all that bad when you consider the difference between the $190 PCIe 6800GS and equivalent performing $300 7600GS AGP.

Now, if the $350 bought a 7800 GT at the same specs as the PCIe version, that may have been different. $350 for an enthusiast card in agp, sure. $350 for mainstream performance, heck no.

Yeah yeah...blah blah blah... give it a rest already. There are some of us out here with AGP MB's who happen to think this is a great upgrade for us.

 

[SoundTheSurrender]

The 70% with AGP have pretty low end boxes, comparatively speaking. They're not hooked up to $1000 monitors. 1280x1024 is probably all their 17" 25ms LCD is capable of. So really, a $150 6600GT, X1600Pro or $220 6800GS is all they 'need.'

Nice assumption about the 25ms lcds!

get over it, I don't feel like buy a new mobo, processor, sata harddrive, psu and pcie videocard when I can just buy a videocard and play games on it for another year.

 

[v8envy]

Originally posted by: JamesDax

Yeah yeah...blah blah blah... give it a rest already. There are some of us out here with AGP MB's who happen to think this is a great upgrade for us.

And what I'm trying to understand is why you think this is a 'great' upgrade. An X850XT can be had for $190 for PCIe this very minute. Value cards unlockable/overclockable to the same level of performance (hi munky!) have been $154-$220 for several months.

How is a less capable card at the $350 pricepoint ($280-300 street?) suddenly a great upgrade? Yes, it's a waste to spend $70 simply because ati and nvidia marketing thinks you should.

But that doesn't make their AGP offering a good thing.

Just curious, are you planning on buying one of these things? And if so, why did you decide not to get the $200 X850XT?

 

[v8envy]

Originally posted by: djmihow

get over it, I don't feel like buy a new mobo, processor, sata harddrive, psu and pcie videocard when I can just buy a videocard and play games on it for another year.

And you could do the exact same thing with a 6600GT or 1600Pro. 4 days ago you could do even better with the X850XT. The 7800GS AGP is not a giant leap away from the mainstream cards already available in terms of performance, but *IS* a giant step up in price.

Don't get me wrong, I would have loved the option of a high end card in AGP. I still resent being forced to sidegrade to PCIe, but at the end of the day, that still made more economic sense than paying the marketing premium on AGP cards.

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: v8envy

Originally posted by: djmihow

get over it, I don't feel like buy a new mobo, processor, sata harddrive, psu and pcie videocard when I can just buy a videocard and play games on it for another year.

And you could do the exact same thing with a 6600GT or 1600Pro. 4 days ago you could do even better with the X850XT. The 7800GS AGP is not a giant leap away from the mainstream cards already available in terms of performance, but *IS* a giant step up in price.

Don't get me wrong, I would have loved the option of a high end card in AGP. I still resent being forced to sidegrade to PCIe, but at the end of the day, that still made more economic sense than paying the marketing premium on AGP cards.

Couldn't be more wrong.

 

[v8envy]

Originally posted by: Jeff7181


Couldn't be more wrong.

And you're just throwing out red herrings and meaningless one liners. If you have a PSU that'll handle a 7800GS AGP, you have one that'll handle a 6800GS PCIe. I'm not sure when SATA became necessary for a PCIe video card upgrade, but I know for a fact my socket939 board can handle 2 PATA drives, and PATA to SATA or USB2 adapters for any remaining drives exist, and are not outrageously expensive. Unless you have like a socket A athlon, all you need to swap is the motherboard.

Heck, I'm shocked you didn't include a BTX case in that laundry list.

The 6600GT is the most popular mainstream video card, bar none. It outsold every other card this holiday season by a huge margin. Game makers will make sure their game is playable on that class hardware throughout 2006.

Now, will this year's games let you crank the resolution to 1600x1200 and turn on FSAA? No. Will this year's games be playable at 1024x768 on 6600GT class hardware? Yes.

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: v8envy

Originally posted by: Jeff7181


Couldn't be more wrong.

And you're just throwing out red herrings and meaningless one liners. If you have a PSU that'll handle a 7800GS AGP, you have one that'll handle a 6800GS PCIe. I'm not sure when SATA became necessary for a PCIe video card upgrade, but I know for a fact my socket939 board can handle 2 PATA drives, and PATA to SATA or USB2 adapters for any remaining drives exist, and are not outrageously expensive. Unless you have like a socket A athlon, all you need to swap is the motherboard.

Heck, I'm shocked you didn't include a BTX case in that laundry list.

The 6600GT is the most popular mainstream video card, bar none. It outsold every other card this holiday season by a huge margin. Game makers will make sure their game is playable on that class hardware throughout 2006.

Now, will this year's games let you crank the resolution to 1600x1200 and turn on FSAA? No. Will this year's games be playable at 1024x768 on 6600GT class hardware? Yes.

WTF are you talking about? You claimed someone "could do the exact same thing with a 6600GT or x1600 Pro" (your own words) as they could do with a 7800GS. No... sorry. That's not true in the slightest.

*EDIT* More BS bolded for you. This years games aren't playable at 1024x768 on my overclocked 6800GT.

 

[imported_JamesDax]

Once again, just so we're clear, the 7800GS is faster then the 6800GS/GT/Ultra and cheaper then the X850XT PE which is it's only competetion. When overclocked it has no competetion. IT IS THE BEST AGP CARD ON THE MARKET TODAY!!! PERIOD.

 

[Gstanfor]

Well, as it stands the 7800GS is underwhelming and AGP owners need to send nVidia a clear message to that effect.

However, on the bright side we now have an AGP PCB that should be capable of making use of all G70 cores - we just need an enterprising company to put a GT or GTX core on the bord instead of the crappy crippleware nVidia decided to saddle us with.

 

[v8envy]

Originally posted by: Jeff7181


WTF are you talking about? You claimed someone "could do the exact same thing with a 6600GT or x1600 Pro" (your own words) as they could do with a 7800GS. No... sorry. That's not true in the slightest.

That same exact thing I was refering to was being able to play games on that box for one more year. The only real pigs this year were FEAR and COD2, both of which do pretty well on an x1600.

[/quote]
*EDIT* More BS bolded for you. This years games aren't playable at 1024x768 on my overclocked 6800GT.[/quote]

Considering the 7800GS AGP is 10-20% faster than a stock 6800GS at best, what you are saying there is the 7800GS is not going to run them either. I fail to see how that's a good thing for $300-350.

I disbelieve. Which 2005-2006 game is giving you unplayable frame rates on your overclocked 6800GT at 12x10 eye candy off? What's the CPU and amount of ram behind that?

10x7 would be the 6600GT's settings.

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: v8envy

Originally posted by: Jeff7181

WTF are you talking about? You claimed someone "could do the exact same thing with a 6600GT or x1600 Pro" (your own words) as they could do with a 7800GS. No... sorry. That's not true in the slightest.

That same exact thing I was refering to was being able to play games on that box for one more year. The only real pigs this year were FEAR and COD2, both of which do pretty well on an x1600.

*EDIT* More BS bolded for you. This years games aren't playable at 1024x768 on my overclocked 6800GT.

Considering the 7800GS AGP is 10-20% faster than a stock 6800GS at best, what you are saying there is the 7800GS is not going to run them either. I fail to see how that's a good thing for $300-350.

I disbelieve. Which 2005-2006 game is giving you unplayable frame rates on your overclocked 6800GT at 12x10 eye candy off? What's the CPU and amount of ram behind that?

10x7 would be the 6600GT's settings.

Well hell, if you wanna turn eye candy off ya barely need more than a 9800 Pro. I like to make use of all the in game features as well as AA and AF. In FEAR I get an average of ~35 frames per second at 4XAA and 8XAF at 1024x768 with soft shadows disabled and a few other options turned down. The game looks nice, but an average of 35 frames per second with dips into the teens is not what I consider playable.

I was joking about my components being offended (obviously) by your statement that the 7800GS is for people using an outdated platform who are hanging onto a dead technology. That may be your opinion, but it's certainly not an accurated description of who's in the market for a 7800GS. I have a 939 board with a 2.6 GHz CPU and 2 GB of RAM and an Audigy 2 ZS. It's not the latest and greatest, but not dead technology.

 

[SoundTheSurrender]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
Well, as it stands the 7800GS is underwhelming and AGP owners need to send nVidia a clear message to that effect.

However, on the bright side we now have an AGP PCB that should be capable of making use of all G70 cores - we just need an enterprising company to put a GT or GTX core on the bord instead of the crappy crippleware nVidia decided to saddle us with.

I beg to differ, its cheaper then the ATI version, and when o/c it beats it.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: djmihow

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
Well, as it stands the 7800GS is underwhelming and AGP owners need to send nVidia a clear message to that effect.

However, on the bright side we now have an AGP PCB that should be capable of making use of all G70 cores - we just need an enterprising company to put a GT or GTX core on the bord instead of the crappy crippleware nVidia decided to saddle us with.

I beg to differ, its cheaper then the ATI version, and when o/c it beats it.

the x850xt was $200 the entire month of January . . . . i do not regret getting mine and am totally glad i did not wait for the 7800GS.

we haven't seen ATi's 'reply' to the 7800gs . . . and any of ati's partners can take an x1900xtx and bridge it to AGP . . . the bridge costs $10 . . . they just do not perceive "demand" for a $600 AGP card.

 

[beggerking]

Originally posted by: v8envy

Originally posted by: Jeff7181


WTF are you talking about? You claimed someone "could do the exact same thing with a 6600GT or x1600 Pro" (your own words) as they could do with a 7800GS. No... sorry. That's not true in the slightest.

That same exact thing I was refering to was being able to play games on that box for one more year. The only real pigs this year were FEAR and COD2, both of which do pretty well on an x1600.

*EDIT* More BS bolded for you. This years games aren't playable at 1024x768 on my overclocked 6800GT.[/quote]

Considering the 7800GS AGP is 10-20% faster than a stock 6800GS at best, what you are saying there is the 7800GS is not going to run them either. I fail to see how that's a good thing for $300-350.

I disbelieve. Which 2005-2006 game is giving you unplayable frame rates on your overclocked 6800GT at 12x10 eye candy off? What's the CPU and amount of ram behind that?

10x7 would be the 6600GT's settings.

[/quote]

I agree with you , buying a MB seems like a better upgrade path and is more future proof..

still, in my case I would still go with 7800GS when it goes to ~$200 just to
1. save time on changing out mb
2. save time on not having to reinstall/reconfigure windows/apps
3. possible ps problem.

though I don't plan to use my current box for more than 1 more yr...

7800GS performance is just not worth ~$300.. bad move on NV to trash a perfectly good core..

 

[v8envy]

Originally posted by: beggerking

still, in my case I would still go with 7800GS when it goes to ~$200 just to
1. save time on changing out mb
2. save time on not having to reinstall/reconfigure windows/apps
3. possible ps problem.

though I don't plan to use my current box for more than 1 more yr...

7800GS performance is just not worth ~$300.. bad move on NV to trash a perfectly good core..

Oh, we're in violent agreement. With a $200 pricetag, this mainstream performance card will be a reasonable thing to get for people with obsolete machines (e.g, athlon xp 2600+ and faster).

What I'm saying is the people with non-obsolete hardware (e.g, jeff7181, others with socket754 and better CPUs) are better off giving in to NVidia/ATI marketing and sidegrading to PCIe rather than paying the huge premium to receive mainstream performance on AGP.

Yes, this is the 'best' AGP solution out there. Which doesn't make it economical or good if you broaden your viewpoint to include sidegrading to PCIe.

Originally posted by: Jeff7181
Well hell, if you wanna turn eye candy off ya barely need more than a 9800 Pro.

That's exactly my point. The 9800Pro/6600-non-GT (never mind 6600GT/1600Pro) are enough to continue gaming this year if you have an obsolete box. You don't. You have the ability to get mainstream graphics cards for mainstream pricing by sidegrading your motherboard and keeping the other components. Or step up to enthusiast level cards and get 'playable' frame rates with the settings you desire.

That's why we have enthusiast cards -- to provide an enthusiast-level gameplay experience. It's silly to expect a $200 mainstream card to provide a gaming experience as satisfying as a $2000 enthusiast setup. Just because it has a $350 pricetag doesn't mean it's an enthusiast card.

p.s. my gaming box is a sempron 3400+ socket 939 + PCIe, 6600 non-gt. It works well enough that I think I can hold off until socket M2 CPUs and DX10 cards aren't premium priced.

 

[SoundTheSurrender]

307 dollars is not a bad price for a 7800Gs, even though the Radeon was for 200 dollars, that was a SALE, that doesn't happen all the time. Its 400 dollars now regularly. The Pci Geforce gts are around 290 and higher. This is a good investment for people that don't want to jump to PCIx yet. I don't see a point in putting money into a new system if I can use my current one.

 

[CKXP]

off topic here, but v8envy where did you get that s939 sempron?

 

[v8envy]

You seem to be under the impression that a 7800GS AGP is the same card as a 7800GT PCIe. It's not. A factory overclocked 7800GS is 13/16 of a stock speed 7800GT, and about 17/16th of a stock clocked PCIe 6800GS.

The PCIe X850XT is still on sale right now for $190 AR, $200 without rebates. Several 6800GS PCIe are at the $174 AR pricepoint, $190 without rebates.

$307 is a terrible price for a card that's on the same level as a $200 PCIe card. The only market for these bad boys are gaming enthusiasts with an athlon XP who didn't buy an X850XT last month/year, and that's a tiny market indeed.

The vast majority of AGP users have cheap commodity boxes bought at Best Buy, Dell and CompUSA 1-2 years ago, and they sure as heck wouldn't pay $350 for a retail boxed graphics card. Doubly so for one that won't let them run new games at high res with all the eye candy on. Triply so once they realize the 250 watt PS they have is not enough, and they'll have to pay someone to upgrade that as well.

And enthusiasts should be doing enough research to come to the conclusion that the 7800GS is only a mainstream performance card.