7800GS AGP reviews...

[beggerking]

isn't this the underclocked result?

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: v8envy

Originally posted by: Jeff7181
[
So you're saying a PCI Express 6800GS performs the same as a 6800 Ultra or x850XT? I don't buy it... not for a second. The 7800GS performs similarly to the x850XT (wins some, loses some) at it's stock speed based on nVidia's specs. And since it has the same number of pipelines and same number of ROP's and faster memory than a 6800 Ultra, and it's an improved architecture over the GeForce 6 series, it should perform at least as well as a 6800 Ultra. Therefore, based on your logic... PCIe 6800GS = 7800GS = 6800 Ultra.

Gah. I was so going to let this go. Too bad Anand's review didn't have a 6800GS PCIe compared to the 7800GS. Other review sites did. But anyhoo:

http://anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2686

Fear, 1600x1200:
XTPE - 71.1 fps
7800GS - 57 fps

Fear, 1600x1200, 4xAA
XTPE: 22
7800GS: 13

Far Cry, 1600x1200, 4x AA
XTPE: 48.4
7800GS: 38.5

Q4, 1600x1200, no aa:
XTPE: 63.1
7800GS: 65.8

Q4, 1600x1200, 4xAA
XTPE: 35.3
7800GS: 34.5

Splinter Cell, 1600x1200, no AA
XTPE: 49.4
7800GS: 26.9

So, from this we can draw the conclusion that outside of OpenGL games like Quake4, the 7800GS at reference clocks gets its ASS handed to it by the XTPE, by a margin of up to 45%. About the same performance delta as XTPE vs 6800GT.

Reference clock for the 7800GS is 375 mhz. 6800 Ultra is 400 mhz.

Ergo, GS != XTPE != GT Ultra. And real world performance of a ref clocked 7800GS would be within the margin of error of a GS/GT, and thusly the first cards out of the gate have the clock cranked by 75 mhz. For this very reason. Which was my point.

The 7800GS is meant to function as a 6800GS/GT replacement for the AGP world. Other review sites have come to that conclusion as well. A 6800GT is a mainstream level video card, and in the PCIe market priced accordingly. However at $307 the 7800GS is priced as an enthusiast card. To recap, it's a horrible deal, and AGP users shouldn't stand for it.

According to you, anyone who uses these cards has outdated hardware and wouldn't be running 1600x1200 resolution with 4XAA and 8XAF... so... what's the point in showing results at that resolution?

 

[srenken]

The review was exactly what I was looking for. Not the review you can find on AnandTech. Who really cares what the performance difference is between PCIe. I am reading the review for the AGP to AGP differences, and that is what is given at http://hothardware.com/viewarticle.aspx
The fact that the difference between 6800 Ultra and the 7800 GS is not great enough to make buying the 7800 GS a wish decision, which was what I was looking for in the review. I do not have the money to drop on a new motherboard with PCIe, and a new PCIe video card. I do have money to drop on a new video card if the performance delta was worth the purchase. The review on AnandTech was missing the 6800 Ultra, but Tom's had it. I am still at a loss as to the review on AnandTech. The people who will benefit from this review (current AGP users), only need one or two PCIe card comparisons (ATI and nVidia). I would have like to see the x1600 AGP results thrown in as well. Having results from the same system with the different cards is the key. I could run the benchmarks using my machine, but it would not produce the apple to apple results that these hardware review sites can provide.

Scott

 

[v8envy]

Originally posted by: Jeff7181


According to you, anyone who uses these cards has outdated hardware and wouldn't be running 1600x1200 resolution with 4XAA and 8XAF... so... what's the point in showing results at that resolution?

You're the one who said a 6800GT overclocked is not enough for next year's games. And then said I claimed the GS == ultra == XTPE. So I showed some figures to disprove your claim -- the 7800GS absolutely does not come anywhere close to an XTPE when pushed hard. And, indeed performs slightly better than a 6800GT. Factory overclocked 6800GS (from e.g. XFX) should be very competitive with a factory overclocked 7800GS.

So *IF* an overclocked 6800GT is not enough for next years games, the 7800GS won't be either.

At lower resolutions in most AGP boxes (supporting argument: http://www.steampowered.com/status/survey.html) these cards, including the entry level 6600GT and X1600Pro will perform about the same. I was saying that anyone who wants to last a year will be fine without bleeding out $307 on one of these bad boys, they can hobble along with a $130 card until they're ready to join the rest of us. Their outlay won't buy anywhere near the gaming experience the same funds would in the PCIe world. Once those cards hit $200-ish, sure. But it's nutty to get them now for over $300.

BTW, I've got biostar nforce2 boards in 6 boxes, on 24x7x365 for going on 3 years now. Rock stable. They're no DFI or Asus, but neither are they PC Chips.

 

[308nato]

I am probably the last person you want to give any detailed analysis of a graphics card. Admittedly I am not a highly technical/knowledgeable tweaker and don't have a lot of benchmarks/fps "stuff" on my pc to give you. I am getting a chuckle out of the ruckus this card has created though. Don't judge the card by me in otherwords.

albatron px845 pev/pro rev:800 (agp 4x)
2.4b at 166 fsb for 3.0 (it will do MUCH better but this setting runs all stock voltages)
alpha pal 8952 with panaflo l1a
2x512 generic value ram at ddr415 2.5 2 2 5
enlight 420 watt ps
big antec aluminum case with 4 panaflo l1a's(the card is not noticeable noisewise, same as 9500 pro I guess)
year old XP home sp2 install
bfg 7800gs oc with 81.98 drivers from install cd

I all I have are some 3Dmark numbers to toss out.....drivers as installed, antivirus-firewall running no tweaks (haven't had any time to learn the nvidia drivers yet)

3dmark2001 18,185
2003 12,466
2006 3002 \ sm2.0 1307 \ hdr.sm3.0 1310 \ cpu 819

The only thing played so far was my oldest son with MOHAA Pacific Assault. 1280x1024 with everything on and 4x antialiasing 8x aniso. I had him run the pearl harbor map with the pt boat ride and quad deck gun on the Virginia. Smooth as silk. The 9500pro ckoked on this map at 1024x768 medium settings and 4xaa no aniso.

I haven't bought any of the newer games because I did not want to play at crap settings. I will be buying an armload this weekend

I bought almost everything in my box off the for sale/trade forum for cheap. I will upgrade to "newer" hardware when you all dump your stuff next go round. I bought this card because I am rather tired of ATi at the moment and the card intrigued me. I am very happy with it (although many of you will tsk tsk for my waste of money) so that makes it all good.

Dan out

 

[imported_JamesDax]

Originally posted by: v8envy

Originally posted by: Jeff7181


According to you, anyone who uses these cards has outdated hardware and wouldn't be running 1600x1200 resolution with 4XAA and 8XAF... so... what's the point in showing results at that resolution?

You're the one who said a 6800GT overclocked is not enough for next year's games. And then said I claimed the GS == ultra == XTPE. So I showed some figures to disprove your claim -- the 7800GS absolutely does not come anywhere close to an XTPE when pushed hard. And, indeed performs slightly better than a 6800GT. Factory overclocked 6800GS (from e.g. XFX) should be very competitive with a factory overclocked 7800GS.

So *IF* an overclocked 6800GT is not enough for next years games, the 7800GS won't be either.

At lower resolutions in most AGP boxes (supporting argument: http://www.steampowered.com/status/survey.html) these cards, including the entry level 6600GT and X1600Pro will perform about the same. I was saying that anyone who wants to last a year will be fine without bleeding out $307 on one of these bad boys, they can hobble along with a $130 card until they're ready to join the rest of us. Their outlay won't buy anywhere near the gaming experience the same funds would in the PCIe world. Once those cards hit $200-ish, sure. But it's nutty to get them now for over $300.

BTW, I've got biostar nforce2 boards in 6 boxes, on 24x7x365 for going on 3 years now. Rock stable. They're no DFI or Asus, but neither are they PC Chips.

wrong wrong... so wrong... jesus mary and joseph...

Why would anyone want to hobble along when they can get top end performance by spending $319 for a eVGA eGeforce 7800GS OC Superclock running a 460/1360?

Perhaps you should check out this review: 7800GS OC Superclock

This card is worth every penny. If they can't afford it thats one thing. But if they can pick this up it certinly will buy them a gaming exprience simular to you in the PCIe world and they will be good for the next year(not just hobbling along) while saving for the big upgrade.

 

[Piuc2020]

I mean come on, it was very low of nvidia to release a card with such low clocks, only 16 pipelines, a measly 8 ROPs and a 350$ pricetag, if it had 7800GT performance at 350$, it would be a viable upgrade for AGP users but its not even the best AGP card.

Well, I guess this makes people like me finally want to bite the bullet and get PCi-E.

 

[imported_JamesDax]

Originally posted by: Piuc2020
I mean come on, it was very low of nvidia to release a card with such low clocks, only 16 pipelines, a measly 8 ROPs and a 350$ pricetag, if it had 7800GT performance at 350$, it would be a viable upgrade for AGP users but its not even the best AGP card.

Well, I guess this makes people like me finally want to bite the bullet and get PCi-E.

And despite price quotes to the contray people are still whinning about the $350 price tag.

 

[coldpower27]

Originally posted by: Piuc2020
I mean come on, it was very low of nvidia to release a card with such low clocks, only 16 pipelines, a measly 8 ROPs and a 350$ pricetag, if it had 7800GT performance at 350$, it would be a viable upgrade for AGP users but its not even the best AGP card.

Well, I guess this makes people like me finally want to bite the bullet and get PCi-E.

This is their message of saying if you want 7800 GT or higher level performance go to PCI-E, that way they have can chance of you buying one of their motheboards,

MSRP 349US is right considering where it slots in between the 6800 GS AGP and the 7800 GT PCI-E those 2 cards MSRP ae 249US and 449US respectively.

 

[CKXP]

sadly AGP owners are getting screwed, the 7800gs is a crippled G70 has been, it's overpriced, underperforming, it's has to be OC'd heavily to be compared to the x850xt pe, and it's taking $300 of your hard earned money.

walk into in any retail store, and try to buy a desktop system with a AGP slot, it's very hard to find. the market is now geared towards PCIe, and AGP owners are being taking advantage of by the market. the 6800gs AGP is constantly priced higher, and clocked slower than it's PCIe counterpart, and there is no gurantee the card will unlock to a full fledge 6800gt. the 7800gs is no better, priced more than a 7800gt yet considerably slower. your better off saving your hard earned $300 for a future total system upgrade than buying this card, just for the sake of having a faster GPU on a dead-end interface.

 

[imported_JamesDax]

Originally posted by: CKXP
sadly AGP owners are getting screwed, the 7800gs is a crippled G70 has been, it's overpriced, underperforming, it's has to be OC'd heavily to be compared to the x850xt pe, and it's taking $300 of your hard earned money.

walk into in any retail store, and try to buy a desktop system with a AGP slot, it's very hard to find. the market is now geared towards PCIe, and AGP owners are being taking advantage of by the market. the 6800gs AGP is constantly priced higher, and clocked slower than it's PCIe counterpart, and there is no gurantee the card will unlock to a full fledge 6800gt. the 7800gs is no better, priced more than a 7800gt yet considerably slower. your better off saving your hard earned $300 for a future total system upgrade than buying this card, just for the sake of having a faster GPU on a dead-end interface.

<sigh>

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: JamesDax

Originally posted by: CKXP
sadly AGP owners are getting screwed, the 7800gs is a crippled G70 has been, it's overpriced, underperforming, it's has to be OC'd heavily to be compared to the x850xt pe, and it's taking $300 of your hard earned money.

walk into in any retail store, and try to buy a desktop system with a AGP slot, it's very hard to find. the market is now geared towards PCIe, and AGP owners are being taking advantage of by the market. the 6800gs AGP is constantly priced higher, and clocked slower than it's PCIe counterpart, and there is no gurantee the card will unlock to a full fledge 6800gt. the 7800gs is no better, priced more than a 7800gt yet considerably slower. your better off saving your hard earned $300 for a future total system upgrade than buying this card, just for the sake of having a faster GPU on a dead-end interface.

<sigh>

evidently PCIe is also dead end and some of us just want to skip this generation of overpriced and underperforming transitional HW.

So there.



i AM saving my money for the next Next gen . . . that's why i got a cheap x850xt to tide me over till then

 

[v8envy]

Ok, the 7800GS CO Superclock is not a bad card, with a definite performance advantage over a reference 6800GS PCIe. I'll definitely keep that one in mind for the 'best available AGP card' category, at least until X850XT AGP are down to $200 again just like their PCIe relatives.

 

[CKXP]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: JamesDax

Originally posted by: CKXP
sadly AGP owners are getting screwed, the 7800gs is a crippled G70 has been, it's overpriced, underperforming, it's has to be OC'd heavily to be compared to the x850xt pe, and it's taking $300 of your hard earned money.

walk into in any retail store, and try to buy a desktop system with a AGP slot, it's very hard to find. the market is now geared towards PCIe, and AGP owners are being taking advantage of by the market. the 6800gs AGP is constantly priced higher, and clocked slower than it's PCIe counterpart, and there is no gurantee the card will unlock to a full fledge 6800gt. the 7800gs is no better, priced more than a 7800gt yet considerably slower. your better off saving your hard earned $300 for a future total system upgrade than buying this card, just for the sake of having a faster GPU on a dead-end interface.

<sigh>

evidently PCIe is also dead end and some of us just want to skip this generation of overpriced and underperforming transitional HW.

So there.



i AM saving my money for the next Next gen . . . that's why i got a cheap x850xt to tide me over till then

agreed no GPU interface is set in stone, cause there's something better beyond the horizon...that being said, i would have to disagree that current generation GPU's being considered underperforming they are vastly improved compared to the last generation, but overpriced yes, but that will always be the case with every "next generation" hardware. NV and ATI are in business of making money and as longs consumers are willing to pay for latest and greatest they'll continue to do so.

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: JamesDax

Originally posted by: v8envy

Originally posted by: Jeff7181


According to you, anyone who uses these cards has outdated hardware and wouldn't be running 1600x1200 resolution with 4XAA and 8XAF... so... what's the point in showing results at that resolution?

You're the one who said a 6800GT overclocked is not enough for next year's games. And then said I claimed the GS == ultra == XTPE. So I showed some figures to disprove your claim -- the 7800GS absolutely does not come anywhere close to an XTPE when pushed hard. And, indeed performs slightly better than a 6800GT. Factory overclocked 6800GS (from e.g. XFX) should be very competitive with a factory overclocked 7800GS.

So *IF* an overclocked 6800GT is not enough for next years games, the 7800GS won't be either.

At lower resolutions in most AGP boxes (supporting argument: http://www.steampowered.com/status/survey.html) these cards, including the entry level 6600GT and X1600Pro will perform about the same. I was saying that anyone who wants to last a year will be fine without bleeding out $307 on one of these bad boys, they can hobble along with a $130 card until they're ready to join the rest of us. Their outlay won't buy anywhere near the gaming experience the same funds would in the PCIe world. Once those cards hit $200-ish, sure. But it's nutty to get them now for over $300.

BTW, I've got biostar nforce2 boards in 6 boxes, on 24x7x365 for going on 3 years now. Rock stable. They're no DFI or Asus, but neither are they PC Chips.

wrong wrong... so wrong... jesus mary and joseph...

Why would anyone want to hobble along when they can get top end performance by spending $319 for a eVGA eGeforce 7800GS OC Superclock running a 460/1360?

Perhaps you should check out this review: http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/evga_e-geforce_7800_gs_co_superclock_review/">7800GS OC Superclock</a>

This card is worth every penny. If they can't afford it thats one thing. But if they can pick this up it certinly will buy them a gaming exprience simular to you in the PCIe world and they will be good for the next year(not just hobbling along) while saving for the big upgrade.

Fixed Link

 

[NoStateofMind]

Are you PCIe owners still on single core processors? OMG! You better upgrade to dual core while your single core can still bring in some cash. I don't know why you would stay with DEAD TECH!

 

[Subwayeatbig]

He does have a point.

 

[PTDent42]

Well, I'm in the target market for the 7800GS. Still running a P4-3.2 northwood, and a Radeon 9800Pro. Could run HL2, Farcry, etc at decent frame rates, but without any eye candy.
I want to upgrade to PCI-E, but I don't want to invest in a socket 939 board with the new socket coming out in April (July?)
When the new socket comes out, I'll need new motherboard ($100), chip ($300), memory (DDR2) ($200), and PCI-e video card($300). I want quality parts, so I'm looking at some serious $$, but I want the initial bugs worked out of the new chipsets, boards, etc.

i'm thinking about 12-18 months until I'm ready for the massive upgrage.

In the meanwhile, the 7800GS is the perfect "tide me over" card. Decent performance (now I can run with some AA and AF at 1280x1024) and get good frame rates (with the exception of FEAR).
pricewise, it's far cheaper than X850 here in Canada.
and If I'm going to spend the $200 for a 6800GS, why not throw an extra $100 for the 7800 for an another 10 fps or so.

And when I do my upgrade to AM-2, my kids gets a pretty good system for Sims2, etc.

I'm very happy with the 7800GS. Sure $50 or so cheaper would have been nice, but I'm good for a while!

 

[Bateluer]

The next person who refers to PCI Express as PCIx is going to get personally slapped by me.

PCIx is a completely different standard than PCIe. The two are both physically and electrically incompatible. Read about PCIx here.

 

[puffpio]

Eagerly waiting for a 7800GS to drop to ~$250

I'm kinda stuck cuz I have a SFF computer...so upgrading to PCIe for me would mean an entirely new chassis....
Athlon XP 3000+ with a 7800GS would let my computer last for a couple more years

 

[Zap]

Originally posted by: beggerking
I truly don't understand why Nvidia would underclock / handicap 7800 GS so much to make it less than king of hill for AGP market...

I believe if they had stay with GT specs for GS, for the same price.. ~300, GS would sale like crazy.

They do it because if they can "nudge" someone over to PCIe, they will have sold a GPU and a chipset, otherwise they have to make up for it by charging more for the GPU - but at the same time looking good doing it because it's the king of AGP (by 5FPS or so).

Originally posted by: beggerking
7800GS is so expensive for its performance

Windows Vista is coming out soon...DX10....don't know if any hardware today will run well on them..

Yes, it is expensive for relative performance. An AGP 6800GS unlocked/overclocked is a better value, BUT we'll have to see where prices "settle."

Regarding Vista, which of you sheeple will upgrade ASAP after it comes out? C'mon guys, there are many who still use Win2000Pro because it just works. What does Vista give you. OOooohhhh, pretty new graphics! Who uses their computer to do work or play? *ZAP RAISES HAND* Who sits in front of their computer staring at the pretty Windows and playing around with their "themes?" *ZAP LOWERS HAND* I'm sure being "prettier" will sell to women who's usage patterns involve playing Solitaire and emailing their grandchildren, but seriously what practical use is it?

Originally posted by: djmihow
I'd like to see them try it @ 1280 x 1024 and 1024 x 768, showing 1600 x 1200 is useless to me.

Yup, most people have 17-19" LCDs these days and 1280x1024 is max for most of those LCDs.

Originally posted by: RussianSensation
So how many AGP users have 2x1 gig sticks exactly? And what does 4x512 give us?

For example, a lot of Socket 939 mainboards refuse to raise the clock generator frequency over 240-250MHz when they are equipped with a full set of four memory DIMMs

I've got 2x1GB in my gaming rig, a P4 Northwood clocked at 3.33GHz with a 6800GT.

P4 boards with chipset memory controller don't seem as limited as the A64 platform when filling all channels.

Originally posted by: Com80787
I work for a living and I don't survive by throwing away money. I realize there are people on this forum who have mommy and daddy get them the latest toys, but some of us actually work for a living and have other expenses to make room for. That means we get last gen hardware instead of the bleeding edge, and for the most part we are just fine with it.

Hahaha, that's why my panties get bunched up anytime someone says socket 754 is "obsolete" (even though I'm typing this on my overclocked X2). There's nothing obsolete about it except for the price - companies are slowly getting the ASP up on CPUs and GPUs. We should be fighting this trend instead of blindly buying the "better" with a 50% price premium and a 5% performance premium. Look for that thread where some guy is replacing his 7800GT for a GTX... for web and graphics design?!?! WTF? Conspicuous consumption at it's worst! That's like buying a Humvee to park in the driveway because you can, even though your daily commute vehicle is a BMW.

Originally posted by: djmihow
I don't feel like buy a new mobo, processor, sata harddrive, psu and pcie videocard when I can just buy a videocard and play games on it for another year.

Why can't you play games for another year on your existing card? It isn't going to magically stop working, you know.

Originally posted by: v8envy

Originally posted by: CKXP
off topic here, but v8envy where did you get that s939 sempron?

CompUSA, it was $125 after rebate. It came with some extras -- they threw in an 80mm fan cpu cooler, Asus motherboard with a passively cooled X200 IGP chipset, 100G hard drive, 250 watt Delta PS, 256M of CAS3 PC3200, and an XP home license.

:laugh: @"extras"

Originally posted by: 308nato
I picked up the BFG version at BB today. Its quiet, doesn't seem to heat up the case and was a great upgrade from 9500 Pro. In a nutshell, I am happy.

:thumbsup: In the end that's all that counts.

Here's my take on all this: Higher end AGP cards are great for people with socket A and socket 478 because you can't just switch to a PCIe board (well, there's a single socket 478 example from Foxconn).

If you have socket 754/939, at least consider getting a budget PCIe motherboard. AGP 7800GS costs more than PCIe 7800GT. PCIe 7800GT with motherboard costs more than AGP 7800GS. PCIe 7800GT with motherboard and selling off old motherboard will be pretty darn near the price of the AGP 7800GS. Same price, better performance. That's the best deal for people who don't mind swapping out hardware.

My other thought is that the highest end of anything is never the best value because you're paying a LOT more money for only a tiny bit more performance. Conversely the lowest end of anything is never the best value as well since you are saving a tiny bit of money for a lot less performance. Note that these are general statements and not absolute - for instance the socket 754 Sempron is a tremendous value for being next to the lowest end.

People willing to spend a decent amount on a PCIe video card tend to get the 7800GT and not the GTX because the GT represents a much better value while still at the high end. People willing to spend a decent amount on a CPU tend to get an A64 in the 3500-4000+ range rather than an Athlon FX because they represent the better value. I feel that the 6800GS is a better value than the 7800GS because like a stripper in a dive bar it has a much higher bang-for-buck factor.

 

[Luminair]

This is a dilly of a picker guys.

6800GS AGP is cheap, uses a newish core, and unlocks to be extra fast. But by default it is 350mhz, rather than the 425mhz of the pcie version. Is there a hardware difference, or are they just cheaping out, OR is it a power issue because it doesn't take external power and AGP runs out of juice around the 6800GS AGP's clock speed?

The 7800GS AGP is more expensive, has a couple extra features... slightly better performance... but... I can't really say anythign definite because all the reviews suck! You've got AGP cards compared to PCIe cards, cards of different clock speeds compared, and none of them has what we need.

Here's what we need, folks: compare stock 6800GS AGP, unlocked 6800GS AGP, and 7800GS AGP. Compare Direct3D performance, power draw and heat output, price.

It shouldn't be this hard for me to figure out what is going on. I've got 5 reviews open right now and still can't decided which card is the best buy for my AGP mini-pc. Can AnandTech or anyone else step up and give us an actual good and useful video card roundup?!?!