7900x - Delid or Not?

[Bassman2003]

Hello,

I am a video editor and am looking to upgrade my current 4790k to a 7900x. I have a Corsair H110 AIO water cooler which is probably the largest I can get into my current case.

My goals for overclocking the chip are to have two cores at 4.7-4.8 and the rest in the 4.1-4.3 range. Not a huge ask but I would like the temps to be closer to the 50s, maybe 60 max when editing or encoding.

Do you think I can get this with a boxed processor or will the delid be necessary to reach these speeds at these temps using the H110 cooler?

Thanks for your input.

 

[Burpo]

As long as you're not trying for a world record overclock, and have a decent aio or custom water cooling, you shouldn't really need to delid it.

 

[R0H1T]

Those temps are implausible even with a delid, unless your software uses (only?) two cores in short bursts. You might also need to keep the room temp constant at 20C.

Take this as a worst case scenario, if you will ~ http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/intel-core-i9-7900x-skylake-x,5092-11.html

But I don't see even a delid 7900x as cool as you'd like, with the clocks you're targeting.

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks for your replies. I am really looking for some perspective. I want the upgrade to have a speed advantage over my current 4790 CPU but do not want to have a portable space heater just to accomplish the task. After reading the linked page it seems if I want a chance to have *decent* temperatures using my current H110 water cooler, the delidding process gives me a better shot. But is it worth it? Silicon Lottery states a 10-20C drop in temps with their product.

My desired temps are probably dreaming, so they will have to go higher. I guess I have some apprehension with a $1000 part by voiding the warranty.

 

[Campy]

I've seen builds with a decent chip and delid run all 8 cores at 4.7-4.8 with temps in the 70s/low 80s, but haven't looked into it very thoroughly. If you decide to go this route it may well be a good idea to buy the chip or at least the delidding service from SL.
Is there any reason you haven't looked into Threadripper? Wouldn't that be great for encoding?

 

[Bassman2003]

Threadripper is a close second but it seems to be limited to 4GHz. My software needs have a mix of single and multithreaded tasks. So the 7900x seems to fit that bill a little better (with an overclock).

 

[crashtech]

I would seriously be considering delid if buying into SKL-X. That said, I did not know there was a readily available tool for LGA2066 yet.

 

[Bassman2003]

I would be purchasing from Silicon Lottery if I go the delid route.

 

[crashtech]

I would be purchasing from Silicon Lottery if I go the delid route.

Great idea, but their fastest ones are always sold out. Maybe you could contact them and preorder one.

 

[Arachnotronic]

I didn't bother delidding my 7900X.

 

[Bassman2003]

How are your temps? Have you overclocked?

 

[sefsefsefsef]

I am really looking for some perspective. I want the upgrade to have a speed advantage over my current 4790 CPU but do not want to have a portable space heater just to accomplish the task.

That's not quite how heat and temperatures work. The point of delidding is to make your cooling system *more* efficient at getting energy away from your CPU die and into the air in your room, which could serve to make your room heat up faster when there are short bursts of activity (because the heat energy is no longer confined to your CPU socket). Over longer periods of time, there is zero difference in the air temperature of the room before and after delidding, because the CPU is dissipating the same amount of energy in the form of heat in both situations.

 

[Bassman2003]

I thought the delidding process would result in the processor running cooler because the AIO water cooler would be more efficient at taking the heat away. Thus resulting in less heat put out into the room air.

You are saying the processor makes "X" amount of heat weather delidded or not. If the CPU was run without a cooler the heat would be enormous. If you compared a CPU running at 100c and one running at 50c, would you expect the ambient air to be the same? Seems like the 100c CPU would warm up the room more than a 50c CPU.

Interesting topic.

 

[KompuKare]

I thought the delidding process would result in the processor running cooler because the AIO water cooler would be more efficient at taking the heat away. Thus resulting in less heat put out into the room air.

You are saying the processor makes "X" amount of heat weather delidded or not. If the CPU was run without a cooler the heat would be enormous. If you compared a CPU running at 100c and one running at 50c, would you expect the ambient air to be the same? Seems like the 100c CPU would warm up the room more than a 50c CPU.

Interesting topic.

You're confusing max temp with power output.
Imagine a blower GPU: the air being blown out if the core is 90°C is hotter than if the core is only 60°C. However, if in either case the GPU uses 250W of power then that 250W will end up in the room.

In other words: every watt of power a component consumes output one watt of (in this case) waste heat. All delidding does is allow the excess heat to be transferred quicker.

Caveat: silicon operates more efficiently at lower temperatures so a CPU/GPU etc. running at the same load and frequency but cooled to 50°C vs 90°C will consume less heat. In that case, the room would actually be cooler.

 

[Topweasel]

Thanks for your replies. I am really looking for some perspective. I want the upgrade to have a speed advantage over my current 4790 CPU but do not want to have a portable space heater just to accomplish the task. After reading the linked page it seems if I want a chance to have *decent* temperatures using my current H110 water cooler, the delidding process gives me a better shot. But is it worth it? Silicon Lottery states a 10-20C drop in temps with their product.

My desired temps are probably dreaming, so they will have to go higher. I guess I have some apprehension with a $1000 part by voiding the warranty.

Keep in mind that while the air coming out of the radiator will be cooler if you are transferring heat quick enough. The law of physics basically state that your room would be heated just as quickly with a 140w CPU at 50C as it would a 140w CPU at 100c.

 

[Bassman2003]

ok. So delidding would be for overclocking performance gains. Which in my case is a pretty low bar. Sounds like I do not need a delidded CPU then correct?

 

[Zucker2k]

ok. So delidding would be for overclocking performance gains. Which in my case is a pretty low bar. Sounds like I do not need a delidded CPU then correct?

Delidding does impact power consumption - up to 40 watts in one of the 7900x reviews - which would help bring temps down a tad. I'll say go for it.

 

[Ratman6161]

ok. So delidding would be for overclocking performance gains. Which in my case is a pretty low bar. Sounds like I do not need a delidded CPU then correct?

I don't own one so I don't claim any special knowledge on the subject. But this artical gives one take on why these CPU's are hard to cool:

The Skylake-X Mess Explored: Thermal Paste And Runaway Power
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/-intel-skylake-x-overclocking-thermal-issues,5117.html

They attribute the issue to the thermal paste that Intel puts between the CPU die and the heat spreader or "Lid". Essentially because of the crappy paste, at a certain point, better cooling does you no good because the thermal paste stands in the way. I suppose the reason for "de-lidding" might be so that the cooler can contact the die directly and thus cool better?????

Personally I would not be willing to risk a $1,000 CPU in an effort that could easily end in disaster. Even if you successfully de-lid, you get another opportunity for disaster when you mount the cooler. I remember back in the day when Athlon 64 CPU's had no lid and the die was directly exposed (as today's cpu's would be after a de-lid). There were plenty of people crying because they cracked the die, broke off a corner, etc due to uneven pressure on the die.

But in the end, if its your money, its your decision. Personally I would not remotely consider it.

 

[pantsaregood]

Just want to point out that having eight cores, ten cores, or 437 cores running at 90°C does not imply that a CPU is behaving as a "space heater." If you have a 1mm^2 die running at a constant 90°C, it isn't going to function as a space heater in any capacity. A 1000mm^2 die running at a constant 30°C will dump a load of heat into your room.

I don't own one so I don't claim any special knowledge on the subject. But this artical gives one take on why these CPU's are hard to cool:

The Skylake-X Mess Explored: Thermal Paste And Runaway Power
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/-intel-skylake-x-overclocking-thermal-issues,5117.html

They attribute the issue to the thermal paste that Intel puts between the CPU die and the heat spreader or "Lid". Essentially because of the crappy paste, at a certain point, better cooling does you no good because the thermal paste stands in the way. I suppose the reason for "de-lidding" might be so that the cooler can contact the die directly and thus cool better?????

Personally I would not be willing to risk a $1,000 CPU in an effort that could easily end in disaster. Even if you successfully de-lid, you get another opportunity for disaster when you mount the cooler. I remember back in the day when Athlon 64 CPU's had no lid and the die was directly exposed (as today's cpu's would be after a de-lid). There were plenty of people crying because they cracked the die, broke off a corner, etc due to uneven pressure on the die.

But in the end, if its your money, its your decision. Personally I would not remotely consider it.

This article is a little off base. The issue isn't really the thermal compound - the compound isn't excellent, but it is sufficient. The issue is that Intel's manufacturing tolerances permit a relatively large distance between the IHS and the CPU die, which results in relatively poor thermal conductivity. Intel's choice of thermal compound is actually quite good for long term use, their manufacturing tolerances are just too loose.

As far as risk: it looks like he's interested in purchasing from Silicon Lottery instead of delidding himself. This largely removes the risk of delidding.

 

[Topweasel]

Delidding does impact power consumption - up to 40 watts in one of the 7900x reviews - which would help bring temps down a tad. I'll say go for it.

At higher temps it requires more power to maintain performance. So at a given clock (lets say all core at 4.5 GHz) it would use less power if a cooler could keep the temps down. In the end I was pretty sure the 40w was at pretty strong OC (All core 4.6GHz). As you clock closer to 4Ghz that difference would become smaller and smaller dramatically.

The point on this was to pull back on the heat output in the room with a semi reasonable OC. That would only have a few watt difference and not worth potentially damaging and IMHO permanently defacing a $1000 CPU.

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks for all of your replies. This is a complex topic as reading the Tom's articles points to doing whatever you can to reduce whatever you can for this processor. Makes me lean towards the delidded product...

Yes, Silicon Lottery sells CPUs that are delidded, changed out with different thermal compounds and put back together just like a boxed CPU. So no homemade attempt here.

Seems there might be some benefit but not so much at moderate OC levels. I think it is coming down to how much I trust Silicon Lottery. Their CPU would be no different than a normal CPU other than the longevity of their compounds used and only a 1 year warranty compared to a 3 year warranty. They seem like a good company and have responded quickly to a few e-mails I have sent.

 

[slashy16]

Thanks for all of your replies. This is a complex topic as reading the Tom's articles points to doing whatever you can to reduce whatever you can for this processor. Makes me lean towards the delidded product...

Yes, Silicon Lottery sells CPUs that are delidded, changed out with different thermal compounds and put back together just like a boxed CPU. So no homemade attempt here.

Seems there might be some benefit but not so much at moderate OC levels. I think it is coming down to how much I trust Silicon Lottery. Their CPU would be no different than a normal CPU other than the longevity of their compounds used and only a 1 year warranty compared to a 3 year warranty. They seem like a good company and have responded quickly to a few e-mails I have sent.

I purchased a 7700k from them for a gaming build for a friend. We had no issues with the ordering process and their support was excellent. We had some problems obtaining 5ghz on air, so we sent them an email with our motherboard detail and settings and they replied less than 24 hours later with the correct settings to use and it's been running at 5ghz ever since. I can't compare temps as I never had a stock 7700k but, it's running under 75c.

 

[Bassman2003]

I ended up purchasing a binned 7900x rated for 4.6GHz. It will be interesting to see how far I can push it with my cooling setup, which is why I went with the delidding in the end. Silicon Lottery said they feel anybody wanting to overclock the 7900x would want the benefit of the lower temps that come with delidding. Of course they want to sell but after all of the reviews I can not say I disagree.

 

[TahoeDust]

I ended up purchasing a binned 7900x rated for 4.6GHz. It will be interesting to see how far I can push it with my cooling setup, which is why I went with the delidding in the end. Silicon Lottery said they feel anybody wanting to overclock the 7900x would want the benefit of the lower temps that come with delidding. Of course they want to sell but after all of the reviews I can not say I disagree.

I had them delid my 7820x. They do really nice work. The cost was worth the performance (-11c), let alone never having to wonder, "What if?".

 

[Bassman2003]

That is what I thought. This is for my business so I am shooting for a 5 year usage cycle. So getting the most out of the chip is what I am looking for.