8.8 Earthquake hits Japan

[sdifox]

So how hard is it to build a truck sized enclosure that resists 30 foot of water? Im serious, I dont get it. Even if the generators would shut down while submerged (as if a breather or oxygen supply would be that hard), I dont see any reason why it would be difficult to make a generator or generator housing that survives a tsunami. First of all there is no reason I can think of to place such an absolutely crucial backup device in harms way to begin with, just raise the bloody thing 20+m, its not like the plant has no buildings taller than that, or make a watertight bunker, or do both. Surely it cant be as hard as say, building a nuclear reactor?

First thing I find on google:
http://underseatechnology.com/mt/mtStories.aspx?ShowStrory=1006812079

sigh... Did you see the before and after pictures? How about the flotsams such as houses and cars?

You know this thing has been around since 1971 right?

Do you understand the size of the generators?

 

[P4man]

How big ya reckon those diesel engines should be?

Not that big. The one's I saw at a local nuclear power plant (granted, a much smaller plant) where about the size of a small ship engine. Think fishing boat. They had at least 4 of those, totally redundant and independent and each was adequate to power the emergency systems of a plant at full capacity. The requirements to pump water to cool a core thats shut down would be far less. Considering they could operate them on batteries for 8 hours, its maybe not even 10? 50kW? I really dont know, all I know is a 1MW generator easily fits on a truck, these things arent that big, nor are they prone to destruction from either quake's or water.

So I just cant believe that in all 3 of these reactors, all generators including the redundant ones would be left inoperable because of water, when all the buildings seem to have coped with the tsunami just fine (as youd expect in a plant built at the coast in one of worlds most earthquake prone regions).

It makes no sense to me, it must have been something else. Here is a wild hypothesis: stuxnet?

 

[Pocatello]

Finally some good news it seems.

New Scientist RT @rowhoop: Amazing: 9,700 missing people from Minamisanriku are safe: evacuated before the tsunami http://s.nikkei.com/iiC9vj

Best news in days.

 

[Ichinisan]

So how hard is it to build a truck sized enclosure that resists 30 foot of water? Im serious, I dont get it. Even if the generators would shut down while submerged (as if a breather or oxygen supply would be that hard), I dont see any reason why it would be difficult to make a generator or generator housing that survives a tsunami. First of all there is no reason I can think of to place such an absolutely crucial backup device in harms way to begin with, just raise the bloody thing 20+m, its not like the plant has no buildings taller than that, or make a watertight bunker, or do both. Surely it cant be as hard as say, building a nuclear reactor?

First thing I find on google:
http://underseatechnology.com/mt/mtStories.aspx?ShowStrory=1006812079

Hey, Captain Hindsight. I don't think anyone was expecting a tsunami to reach that far (or still be so big at that distance).

edit: nm. News always shows the plant from the land side and never revealed that it was right at the shore.

 

[gorcorps]

Hey, Captain Hindsight. I don't think anyone was expecting a tsunami to reach that far (or still be so big at that distance).

No kidding... Plus I don't understand why he's acting like the failure to cool the core is a giant disaster. There's still containment in place to keep a meltdown in one spot and not spread. He's acting like they didn't even plan for a cooling failure when they very obviously had many backup plans, with the containment still being intact AFAIK.

 

[P4man]

Hey, Captain Hindsight. I don't think anyone was expecting a tsunami to reach that far (or still be so big at that distance).

You have to be kidding.

Of course the plant was designed with the threat of tsunami's in mind. There isnt a place on earth thats more likely to be hit.

Plus I don't understand why he's acting like the failure to cool the core is a giant disaster.

Where did I say that? Although "giant disaster" would be an appropriate word if you just take in to account the cost of those plants which are now total loss. Thats what, $10 billion? + economic cost. Compare that to putting a diesel group in a watertight bunker. It doesnt make a lot of sense to me, which is why I dont believe it.

 

[Ichinisan]

snip

Just looked it up on Google Maps. Every bit of footage I have watched made it appear to be miles inland. Guess that was incorrect.

 

[The Boston Dangler]

Finally some good news it seems.

New Scientist RT @rowhoop: Amazing: 9,700 missing people from Minamisanriku are safe: evacuated before the tsunami http://s.nikkei.com/iiC9vj

awesome news

 

[P4man]

Just looked it up on Google Maps. Every bit of footage I have watched made it appear to be miles inland. Guess that was incorrect.

Yeah, it sits smack at the ocean front, not 200m from the sea:
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=e...0.030448&t=h&z=16&iwloc=00049e850138ac09b67df

I suppose there is a reason they built it there (like now, infinite supplies of cooling water?) but clearly they wouldnt have build there if they figured a tsunami could knock it out. Not 4 Km further inland there is a 400m high mountain ridge.

 

[The Boston Dangler]

oh shit, cnn's carol is going to "look at the science behind nuclear technology". this is potentially comedy gold.

edit:
nope, just lame.

 

[PottedMeat]

oh shit, cnn's carol is going to "look at the science behind nuclear technology". this is potentially comedy gold.

edit:
nope, just lame.

a few nights ago the CBS evening news had a bit on nuclear tech... they cut it down so much and watered down the tech so that it was essentially saying nothing for 3 minutes

 

[The Boston Dangler]

a few nights ago the CBS evening news had a bit on nuclear tech... they cut it down so much and watered down the tech so that it was essentially saying nothing for 3 minutes

in general, do you think they were sensationalize things out of proportion?

 

[BoomerD]

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/15_h53.html

Two rescued 90 hours after earthquake

An elderly man and woman have been rescued more than 90 hours after the devastating earthquake in northern Japan.

The man was rescued from a collapsed building in Ishinomaki City, Miyagi Prefecture, on Tuesday, 96 hours after a massive earthquake and tsunami devastated the city.

A 70-year-old woman was rescued in Otsuchi Town, Iwate Prefecture, 92 hours after the earthquake.

Rescuers found her on Tuesday in the wreckage of her house.

She is being treated at a hospital in Kamaishi City in the prefecture. Doctors say she's suffering from hypothermia but is in stable condition.


Damn...looks like it's still really rocking and rolling:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42037498/ns/world_news-asia-pacific/

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

Just heard a 6.x aftershock hit in the same rough area

 

[bl4ckfl4g]

Ihope and I wouldn't be surprised if they are wrong, but MSNBC is reporting that radiation levels are high enough at the plant to kill within 5 hours?

I'm skeptical

 

[rcpratt]

Ihope and I wouldn't be surprised if they are wrong, but MSNBC is reporting that radiation levels are high enough at the plant to kill within 5 hours?

I'm skeptical

The highest number I've seen from a trusted source (NEI in this case) is 40 rem/hr in the Unit 3 reactor building.

The NRC's listed LD50/30 (lethal dose to 50% within 30 days) is 400-450 rem. 40 rem/hr is 200 rem in 5 hours obviously, so I would say that's stretching the truth.

As far as I know, dose has been decreasing since these numbers from about 12 hours ago were released:

Near Unit 3 reactor building 40 rem/hr
Near Unit 4 reactor building 10 rem/hr
At site boundary 821 millirem/hr.
Kitaibaraki (200 km south of site) 0.4 millirem/hr.

 

[The Boston Dangler]

assuming manual reversion isn't required, would those reactor buildings be manned currently?

 

[BoomerD]

Looks like the USA hasn't cornered the market on crazies blaming "GOD" for the disaster...

http://asiancorrespondent.com/50335/tokyo-mayor-tsunami-was-divine-punishment/

"Tokyo Governor Shintaro Ishihara told reporters March 14 that the March 11 earthquake and tsunami was “punishment from heaven” because the Japanese people had become greedy.*"


This WAS also posted as part of an Associated Press story in this morning's newspaper, but a google search shows that the comment seems to have been redacted...

 

[Ns1]

wow pics

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...unting-images-450-Britons-feared-missing.html

 

[alfa147x]

Where will they being going to? If they are going to be in Tokyo they will most likely be fine. Tokyo really wasn't affected by this disaster, and the kinds don't seem to normally blow that direction from the nuke plant. Otherwise I'd say one of the best resources besides the BBC would be Reuters.com.

I have no idea. I don't they are allowed to say much.

 

[BoomerD]

so...is this water front living, or what?

Is this a houseboat...or a boathouse?

I just can't imagine living through such a thing. These people, in addition to losing family members, have had their lives washed away...family heirlooms, pictures, keepsakes, all the things that we like to pass on to remind our later generations where they came from. (not to mention all their belongings and household goods)

 

[Ninjahedge]

Building several enclosures that would be able to survive such a rare event is difficult, to say the least. Also, it is not just the generators. It is also the fuel and fuel lines. One of the problems is that you would have to construct the entire thing as if it were one solid piece or things like differences in their natural frequencies could cause the component parts to vibrate independently and cause breakage.

It is not impossible to make a room that would survive this, but it is VERY difficult to make one that would take care of any contingency (such as flotsam clogging any air intake or exhaust).

This is just a case of the event outstripping the design. A design that, to its credit, lasted as long as it did (I think you were saying 30 years?).

Seismic code is an entirely different animal in the last 10-15 years, nevermind 30.

Fingers crossed for all concerned.

 

[iGas]

so...is this water front living, or what?

I just can't imagine living through such a thing. These people, in addition to losing family members, have had their lives washed away...family heirlooms, pictures, keepsakes, all the things that we like to pass on to remind our later generations where they came from. (not to mention all their belongings and household goods)

If only American recognize that earthquakes/tsunami tragedies are the same as war.

 

[BoomerD]

If only American recognize that earthquakes/tsunami tragedies are the same as war.

War declared by Mother Nature...

 

[Ichinisan]

If only American recognize that earthquakes/tsunami tragedies are the same as war.

You probably think the US targets civilians.