$8.88 Antec Cobra UV ATA133 IDE cable

dejacky

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Dec 17, 2000
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Picked up 2 UV Antec Cobra ATA133 IDE shielded cables (w/ ground wire) from compusa. The Tag says $19.99, but when you checkout the price is actually only $8.88. They seem to be sold out...btw, this has been going on for a while, but it seems folks are just now catching on. Good cables .
 

sumrtym

Senior member
Apr 3, 2002
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What good is a ground wire when you mix up the grounds and live wires all in a bundle together? It's HORRIBLE for data integrity.

These are the ONLY rounded cables I recommend:

IOSS RD3XP Gladiator
 

dejacky

Banned
Dec 17, 2000
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What good is a ground wire when you mix up the grounds and live wires all in a bundle together? It's HORRIBLE for data integrity.
I remember at some asian website that tested many cables including the antec cobra series for noise in the signal.. and the antec cobra's had the lowest, @ least noticeably so in the benchmarks. Yes, the ground wire in these cables is seperate and EFFECTIVE sumrtym.
 
Jul 6, 2004
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Originally posted by: dejacky
Picked up 2 UV Antec Cobra ATA133 IDE shielded cables (w/ ground wire) from compusa. The Tag says $19.99, but when you checkout the price is actually only $8.88. They seem to be sold out...btw, this has been going on for a while, but it seems folks are just now catching on. Good cables .

I noticed a lot of other items on clearance at compusa too, but like you said they're pretty much sold out already so I didn't post it. They had rounded cables,case lights,and also some video game accessories. Mostly lower priced stuff like that and no laptops etc. marked down.

 

sumrtym

Senior member
Apr 3, 2002
633
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Originally posted by: dejacky
What good is a ground wire when you mix up the grounds and live wires all in a bundle together? It's HORRIBLE for data integrity.
I remember at some asian website that tested many cables including the antec cobra series for noise in the signal.. and the antec cobra's had the lowest, @ least noticeably so in the benchmarks. Yes, the ground wire in these cables is seperate and EFFECTIVE sumrtym.

Bull. In an IDE flat cable, you have alternating ground and energized wires. In these Cobra (and most rounded cables), they're now bundling all the wires together when they wrap them, thus not isolating the energized wires one from another like the original cable. Just because they put an external ground wire to connect to the drive cage means NOTHING (other than the SHIELDING is grounded), but does nothing for your DATA.

That's why I only recommend the IOSS cables if you're going to get rounded ones. They've got foil shielding between each layer and maintain alternating energized and ground wires throughout, besides offering the shielding and ground wire.

You really need to study cables before you just fire off those comments.
 

sumrtym

Senior member
Apr 3, 2002
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Here's a post I made a while back on another forum where mis-information about folding your own (or rounded cables) was being posted....

"Rounding" your own cable actually PROMOTES crosstalk for a very good reason. Normally you have a data line seperated, then a ground wire, then another data line, etc. When you round your own cable, you're folding all of these together so you get data lines right against one another without being seperated by those ground wires. This is how you get "crosstalk" on the same cable between data lines. Length of the cable has very little to do with crosstalk.

However, what length of the cable DOES impact is "impedance matching". Unlike SCSI, IDE cable connections are unterminated. "Termination" is what you have to do to stop the signal from reflecting off the end of the cable like a wave that hits the end of a bathtub. The longer your cable, the more end-to-end signal delay you get in terms of fractions of a clock pulse. At UDMA/100 speed, this reflected signal is more and more out of step with the real signal than at UDMA/66 or UDMA/33. Because most drives are now either UDMA/100 or UDMA/133, they are more susceptible to cable problems. That's the whole reason for the 80 wire cable standard anyway, to make the cables less error prone by adding all those interleaved earth (grounds) that are tied together at each end. Ribbon cables with interleaved earths have easily characterized impedance.

With interleaved earths, each signal wire interacts very little with the signal wires on either side. The electromagnetic and electrostatic fields fromt eh signal wires get eaten by the earths in between them. Remove the earths, and the cable impedance can vary tremendously (ie by a factor of two or three) depending on what wires are and aren't energized at that moment.

IDE device designers don't know how the cable's going to be routed, wheter it's going to be hanging in the middle fo the case away from the chassis metalwok, or tightly clamped to the side of the case, or some mixture of both. This determines the cable's capacitance to earth, since the PC case is earthed, and that also influences the impedance.

What's all this mean? If the impedance is lower than the "driver" circuitry that's trying to send a signal expects, then the driver will be unable to deliver enough current at full signal voltage, the signal strength will thus fall, and you're on the way to data loss. Data-signal drivers have much less trouble feeding high impedance loads, but whn the impednace of a 40 wire cable rises for whatever reason, the impedance of the drive on the end of it doesn't. That creates an impedance mismatch at the end, which causes signal reflection problems. Ideally, you don't want the impedance of the cable to vary at all, and the interleaved earths among the signal wires does a pretty good job of squishing the impedance fluctuations.

So, what happens when you split an 80-wire interleaved earth ribbon cable into individual wires and bundle them up? The mixture of data and earth wires is not going to give you a tightly characterised cable, and you now have the problems above I was referring to. IDE spec is drawn out at 10" minimum, 18" max for a reason.

Now, for those of you saying, "You're full of it! I've run longer cables and round ones for YEARS with no problems", I'll just say that can be explained. Good enough components at each end of a cable can deal with more signal corruption than the IDE specification demands. Modern ATA hardware is pretty good at dealing with lousy cables. Current IDE hardware can shout through the noise fairly well. Secondly, IDE covers up data loss problems in that drives mostly have CRC error checking built in now. When data's munged in transit down the cable, the error is detected and the data is resent.

Well, USUALLY it is. I know myself I've got more problems ripping music with my Toshiba DVD-Rom than I do with my Sony Dru-500A DVD-writer. Using Fuerio, I've seen CRC errors on ripped music that if I re-rip with the other drive I don't have. These are ones that CRC CATCHES......

CRC will always catch a one-bit error in a given data block. But if MORE than one bit is wrong, the CRC data may end up the same as it'd be if everything were fine. That's not likely to happen to any given block of data, but in a system with serious data corruption problems it certainly can happen rather often. Hard drives move a lot of blocks of data in a day. This can give you corrupt data on the drive or to your memory, and/or a crash, depending on which way the data block was going and why. Even if you trust software CRC checking, you don't want a lot of errors as it slows down your drives. Remember, CRC only provides error detection, not error correction. The data must be sent again.

This is also why as a rule you don't want to overclock your PCI bus because you also will be overclocking your IDE bus as this can increase the error rate.

If you have a major IDE data loss problem, things are obviously broken. Drives won't be recognized consistently (or at all) on boot, every file operation of a significant size will cause errors, swap file activity will hang the computer. Not the kind of problems you're likely to get from say a standard over-length cable, though. Mostly, you would just see slow drive performance if the CRC is doing it's job.

Since your swap file is the most heavily accessed part of your drive (depending on RAM amount and application), IDE data integrity problems can cause the same symptoms as faulty RAM. Also, think about this...what's the second most accessed single chunk of disc space on Windows? If you said "registry", you win a cookie. And you REALLY don't want data corruption there.

I took all this into account when I put together my system. What did I use? Rounded 20" and 12" cables. At this point, you're probably saying, what the hell?

Well, 20" isn't TOO far out of spec from the IDE length limits, and I wanted rounded cables for airflow reasons, same as most people. However, I also wanted good data. What with ever increasing bus speeds, soundcards, video card frequencies, a TV tuner, CPU, etc., there's a lot of signals bouncing around in your case, and those long IDE lines start looking a lot like antennaes (which if you think about it, they are). So, I ended up getting IOSS RD3XP Gladiator cables for my system for a couple of the above reasons. Most notably, these cables are fully shielded with a ground wire. When I say fully, I mean the entire outside is foil wrapped underneath the mesh to help protect from stray signals in your box. Secondly, even though these cables are rounded, they're not constructed like your garden variety rounded cable. The cable is layed out in 8 layers of 10 wires, alternating ground and signal on each layer, and also folded in a zizag pile so each signal wire is surrounded by 4 ground wires. Not only that, between each of the eight layers of wires is another aluminum foil shield. That's also an added reason I thought the 2" over IDE spec wasn't as big a deal.

Anyway, that's some of the reasons I DON'T recommending folding your own (or buying most rounded cables for that matter, with one obvious exception since it's the only one I know of that shields their cable and preserves the layout design idea of an 80 wire cable).
 

dejacky

Banned
Dec 17, 2000
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sumrtym,
the grounding wire does help provide a cleaner signal. I do agree that lumping those wires together to be round will increase cross-talk and noise. I thought the Antec Cobra's had shielding between the data wires like the IOSS RD3XP Gladiator. After google searching a review of both these cables, the reviewer commented that the Gladiator RD3XP cable actually had about a 10-15% incresae in performance over the Antec Cobra cables. Also, he said there was no difference in performance between the antec cobra cables and the standard 80pin ide cables, except that the STANDARD ide cable performed ever-so-slightly better (though not considered anything worthy of benchmark showing) than the antec cobras. Thanks for the input!
 

EPSSniper

Junior Member
Aug 9, 2004
14
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0
Wow sumrtym, talk about a wealth of knowledge there. I've got a question though...I've already got a 24 inch Coolermaster grounded cable for my CDRW and DVD drive. Would it be worth it to get the RD3XP cable (20 inch) to replace this one?

Also, I've got an old Vantec single drive cable for my HDD and want to get rid of it for a better cable. Should I get the 8 inch single drive RD3XP cable, which is 2 inches shorter than spec, or the 12 inch cable that is within spec?

BTW, thanks for the info and the link earlier.
 

sumrtym

Senior member
Apr 3, 2002
633
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Originally posted by: EPSSniper
Wow sumrtym, talk about a wealth of knowledge there. I've got a question though...I've already got a 24 inch Coolermaster grounded cable for my CDRW and DVD drive. Would it be worth it to get the RD3XP cable (20 inch) to replace this one?

Also, I've got an old Vantec single drive cable for my HDD and want to get rid of it for a better cable. Should I get the 8 inch single drive RD3XP cable, which is 2 inches shorter than spec, or the 12 inch cable that is within spec?

BTW, thanks for the info and the link earlier.
I'd personally junk the 24" for the 20" for the reasons stated above. For a single drive, I'd get the 12". I have yet to find out the reason for the lower length limit on the IDE spec (and I've looked for the info too), but that's what I did. Since they only offer 8", 12", 20", and 28", I went for the 12" on single drives and 20" on double. Like I said, it's two inches over spec, but given the construction method and tests on them I've seen, I'm comfortable recommending (and more importantly, using) the 20". As info, I've got 4 HDD's and two opticals in this system, and every cable I used was an IOSS RD3XP. That link I put earlier is one of the few US suppliers I've seen (and resellerratings were good, even though not abundant). I originally got mine from holomaxx, and spent $20 apiece for them, so thought the pricing was very good on that yahoo store.

If you order some, you'll be impressed with the build quality of these cables. They are VERY nice. I think that one of the MaximumPC mags this year even recommended them for their cable pick.
 

EPSSniper

Junior Member
Aug 9, 2004
14
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0
Sweet. I just wish I hadn't spent 15 bucks on this coolermaster cable. I wonder if Fry's will give me store credit or something...or I could just give it to my dad.

But anyways, I've also heard tons of good things about the RD3XP cables.
 

R08

Junior Member
May 2, 2002
14
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0
"I?m seeing a bit better results with the RD3XP cabling. This works out to be just a shade over 10% gain in data transfer ratings."

What utter BS. HDD transfers are limited by the hard drives, not the cables themselves... they can't even saturate an ATA100 bus, much less an ATA133 bus. Even if they were saturating the ATA bus, there is little likelyhood that crosstalk would affect the transfer speeds by a number like 10%: it should be expected to work at greatly reduced speed (66%, 33%) or not at all.
 

sumrtym

Senior member
Apr 3, 2002
633
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0
Originally posted by: R08
What utter BS. HDD transfers are limited by the hard drives, not the cables themselves... they can't even saturate an ATA100 bus, much less an ATA133 bus.
Well, you're correct about the difference between ATA100 and ATA133 drives...there isn't any. Because you're right in the respect that 7200 RPM drives cannot saturate the 100 speed rating.
HOWEVER, where you're dead wrong is about the data transfer rating. Crosstalk, not to mention the lengths and impact on impedance matching, can INDEED impact your ratings that much for the very reasons I said before....you're data gets CORRUPTED and must be resent using CRC error checking. This makes your HDD appear SLOWER because you are RESENDING data. That's why you see score differences in tests.

From a followup post I made in that other forum / thread a while back to demonstrate the point:

********
Just as one futher aside, furioustech.com tested these cables and found under SiSoftware Sandra that the Gladiator scored 28,529 kB/s vs. an Antec Cobra Cable at 27,067 kB/s (shielded outside and ground wire, but no shielding of individual data wires per 80 wire spec) vs. a generic rounded cable at 22,708 kB/s.

Tweaktown found a 10% increase in SiSoft Sandra over a normal RIBBON cable (non-rounded).

Pimprig found a 9% better score on a RAID5 array under HDTACH over stock cables that came with the 3Ware RAID5 card. In Sandra, the score increased from 30,602 to 31,742. PCMark 2002 went increased to 619 over 613. Competing against a generic ROUNDED cable, Gladiator was 14% faster (notice the reduction vs. a standard ATA133 ribbon cable...was 9% against a ribbon cable) in HDTach, Sandra was 6.8% faster with Gladiator, and PCMark scored a 0.5% better with Gladiator cable.

Themodfathers in the uk tested against two rounded cables and a flat cable. in SiSoft Sandra, the IOSS cable scored 27287 vs 26545 for flat vs. 26696 and 26343 for the other rounded cables, a 2.8% increase over a flat cable. Interestingly, one round cable scored 0.5% better and one 0.7% worse than a flat cable. In HDSpeed results, the burst read was 0.38% better and read 0.36% better for the IOSS. For one rounded, a 0% burst read and 0.18% improved read speed, and the other a -0.12% burst and -1.45% read. These tests were done with case lighting, CD, DVD, secondary HDD, and floppy all disconnected.

PCHardware out of Austrailia tested them on both a Maxtor ATA133 (the cables are rated at ATA100) master and WD ATA100 slave drive. They were tested against a generic rounded cable. The Maxtor showed a 4% gain in Sandra while the WD showed a 15% increase.
*******

So excuse me for actually supplying not only the science reasons, but the results of various tests from reviews around the web (I do my homework) rather than just crapping a response.

It goes a little like this....in some cases, the Cobras are SLIGHTLY better than a ribbon cable simply because of the outer shielding protecting against stray signals inside case (which is becoming more of a problem). In other cases, they're going to test WORSE because of the bundling crosstalk effects. Overall, rounded cables are a horrible idea. HOWEVER, the IOSS beat both the standard ribbon, other rounded, and Cobras because of preserving the 80-wire layout WHILE ALSO providing grounded, external shielding at the same time!

And overall, that's shown over and over again in tests. Think about this....if they test 10% better using the cable, you're corrupting your data 10% more of the time using a different cable and that's quite a lot. You've not only slowed your HDD by that much, but now you're inviting data corruption through the increased chance of having two data bits wrong at the same time that a CRC check might not catch. How much data do you access in one day from the HDD? That quickly adds up. And yes, the theoretical speed is...theoretical because of HDD design. But the speeds you see are DEFINATELY influenced by your cables because of the aforementioned problems impacting your best, REAL speed possible by the physical HDD design.

So in reality, IOSS RD3XP > standard flat cable > Antec Cobra > standard rounded cable. In less of course you're more worried about airflow than data corruption....... :roll:
 

Quasmo

Diamond Member
Jul 7, 2004
9,630
1
76
Originally posted by: sumrtym
What good is a ground wire when you mix up the grounds and live wires all in a bundle together? It's HORRIBLE for data integrity.

These are the ONLY rounded cables I recommend:

IOSS RD3XP Gladiator

Thanks for the recommendation, I just picked up 2 single device 8 inch IDE cables, I've been looking for some high quality rounded non plastic-looking short IDE cables, and these happened to be just that.
 
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