800 Million Transistors go Missing

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sequoia464

Senior member
Feb 12, 2003
870
0
71
OK now lets figure this out. Since I just got a 6100 it looks like I'm only short 600 million transistors give or take, not the full 800 million.

I'm not sure what the price is these days per transistor with the current market fluctuations - but in any case it seems someone (AMD) owes me for 600 million transistors. Suppose I'll get that in the form of a MasterCard gift card, or just credits towards a future revision?
 

Tsavo

Platinum Member
Sep 29, 2009
2,645
37
91
OK now lets figure this out. Since I just got a 6100 it looks like I'm only short 600 million transistors give or take, not the full 800 million.

I'm not sure what the price is these days per transistor with the current market fluctuations - but in any case it seems someone (AMD) owes me for 600 million transistors. Suppose I'll get that in the form of a MasterCard gift card, or just credits towards a future revision?

AMD will just send you a packet of 600 million transistors and a tiny set of tweezers and socket set...takes a while to install 'em, though.
 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
What ever happened to AMD? They had Intel's nuts in a sling with the K7-K8 then they just kind of sat on their ass and let Intel curb stomp them with Core and that's the last I ever heard of them again.
 
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WhoBeDaPlaya

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2000
7,414
401
126
AMD will just send you a packet of 600 million transistors and a tiny set of tweezers and socket set...takes a while to install 'em, though.
They'd better include an electron microscope too, considering those transistors are 32nm
 

zebrax2

Senior member
Nov 18, 2007
972
62
91
What ever happened to AMD? They had Intel's nuts in a sling with the K7-K8 then they just kind of sat on their ass and let Intel curb stomp them with Core and that's the last I ever heard of them again.

Luck ran out. There is only so much you can do with a budget a fraction of your competitor.
 

sequoia464

Senior member
Feb 12, 2003
870
0
71
Pray you don't have to shim any of them...that's a real pain.

I still have an old set of nanoshims somewhere so I should be set. I''m headed to Lowe's for some microwashers - don't think I will need to many -probably only a few hundred thousand. Are those things still in the plumbing section?
 

lamedude

Golden Member
Jan 14, 2011
1,206
10
81
Hector the sector wreckor Ruiz who was not content with simply ruining Moto/Freescale is what happened. Now the company who's former CEO once said "real men have fabs" no longer has fabs.
 
Dec 30, 2004
12,554
2
76
Using AMD Marketing math. ;p But yeah, AMD could have made a x86 knock-off of the Power 7 on 45nm let alone 32nm yet we get the current Bulldozer. Things at AMD and GF are very strange, at this point I think Dirk must have purposely pissed off the board just so he could bail out with some extra cash.

before bulldozer came to light and the future of AMD was still up in the air. Not a bad idea.
 
Dec 30, 2004
12,554
2
76
Luck ran out. There is only so much you can do with a budget a fraction of your competitor.

No, no they definitely ran themselves into the ground.
They wasted time pursuing MCM quads when they should have strapped two x2's together, like Intel did for the q6600.
Then they chose to delay delay delay bringing Bulldozer to market on a new process (32nm) when they should have shrunk their Thuban x6's to 32nm first, and then worried about Bulldozer.
Then they pissed away all this money on Bulldozer and didn't bother working with Microsoft to get the thread scheduler set straight to work as it does with hyperthreading.

It wasn't bad luck it was stupid decisions.
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,118
59
91
What ever happened to AMD? They had Intel's nuts in a sling with the K7-K8 then they just kind of sat on their ass and let Intel curb stomp them with Core and that's the last I ever heard of them again.

Actually they did just that.

Not only did they do just that, but Hector was so arrogant and prideful of the fact that AMD had a lead over Intel that they publicly stated to their analysts and shareholders in a CC that they were intentionally reducing their R&D investment for 65nm (process node and CPU designs) because they wanted to enhance their margins instead.

Classic tortoise and the hare.

They thought they had Intel's balls in hand and they started counting their chickens before they hatched.

Then they got screwed by their arrogance.

Although in hindsight, having his criminal intentions exposed we all have a very different understanding of what kind of leadership Hector had been orchestrating at AMD while there.

Somebody put the wolf in the hen-house and then expected them to mind the shop not realizing that a fish will always rot from the head down.

(did I meet my proverbs quota for the day?)
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
No, no they definitely ran themselves into the ground.
That they have.
They wasted time pursuing MCM quads when they should have strapped two x2's together, like Intel did for the q6600.
You are contradicting yourself. AMD did not release any MCMs until well after the Core 2 Quads were obsolete (2010), and that is only for high-end server configurations, with 8 or more cores. Intel's Core 2 Quad, OTOH, was an MCM, and AMD's choice of single-die integration gave them an edge in many multithreaded situations, that could hide their single-thread performance deficit v. Core 2. They may have made quite a few bad choices, but that was one of their better ones.

Then they chose to delay delay delay bringing Bulldozer to market on a new process (32nm) when they should have shrunk their Thuban x6's to 32nm first, and then worried about Bulldozer.
If Llano (a more important 'shrink') and BD are any indication, a shrunk X6 wouldn't be too much better than a 45nm one, except at low speeds, and it still would be a hindrance going forward. That AMD was able to use a modified K7 to compete with up to early Nehalems is, on one hand, an indication that it was done right the first time. However, that they kept using it over and over, with only minor changes after the Hammer, most of it away from the FUs, is an indication that there were improvements not pursued, and/or that they should have been doing much more aggressive R&D on future technology, and weren't (signs generally point to both, for the same reason: R&D costs money that could be better used for golden parachutes and insider trades).

If anything, they should have made the new arch able to perform well at lower speeds, and/or have much improved performance/Watt, regardless of what speeds they wanted to be able to reach. Even if they could have gotten it faster at launch, or it can get much faster (IOW, cooler) over revisions, what good would that be when their halo parts were still only going to be ~2-2.5GHz, and future desktop/mobile versions will need to perform well at such lower speeds, too?

Then they pissed away all this money on Bulldozer and didn't bother working with Microsoft to get the thread scheduler set straight to work as it does with hyperthreading.
Intel didn't either, and it took awhile for Hyperthreading to work well on Windows. HT just happens to be old, now. MS has also had many minor updates to fix scheduling problems for certain configurations, and there is no sign that's going to stop. IMO, the blame for that is all on MS: they should really make a scheduler that can handle shared memory (caches) well, with API/ABI compatibility layers where needed. This sort of thing is only going to get worse as time goes on.

Note, also, that while BD's performance in Linux, which has a better general scheduler, may be superior to Windows at this time, it still only beats Phenom IIs doing things most of us don't care about, uses plenty of power to do it, and single-thread performance is still every bit as bad as in Windows.

(did I meet my proverbs quota for the day?)
Encore, encore!
 

coolpurplefan

Golden Member
Mar 2, 2006
1,243
0
0
Something tells me if this company keeps on goofing up and people outside see the potential that's already there, if their stock goes way down then they might get acquired by people who want to send this company in the right direction. If their resources were too stretched out to do what they really could have done in a better way, then that could be fixed by a buyout.
 

JimmiG

Platinum Member
Feb 24, 2005
2,024
112
106
That's what happens when you use automated CPU design tools I guess. Next time, it's probably best if they double-check the numbers at least once after clicking the "Create new CPU architecture" button.
 

Blue Shift

Senior member
Feb 13, 2010
272
0
76
That's what happens when you use automated CPU design tools I guess. Next time, it's probably best if they double-check the numbers at least once after clicking the "Create new CPU architecture" button.

Haven't we already astablished that the rest of the large chip manufacturers (such as Intel) ALREADY use automated design tools? Can we please just let this one rest?
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,118
59
91
Haven't we already astablished that the rest of the large chip manufacturers (such as Intel) ALREADY use automated design tools? Can we please just let this one rest?

Actually he brings up a valid point.

We all assume that the idea of counting xtors is straightforward like checking the balance in our checking account...but what if it is something more nebulous like word and character counting where the rules of counting (don't count spaces, but do count punctuation marks, etc) make things a tad less binary?

I know if I hit the 10,000 character limit for pm's (yes it happens :$) if I copy the text over to MS Word and do a character count it reports back a very different number than Vbulletin is computing.

Maybe these design tools kinda operate like that when it comes to tabulating the xtor count? Depending on what gets counted as an active poly versus dummy poly (layout, design-rule generated inactive xtor for litho and topo purposes) it may make all the difference between 2B and 1.2B.
 

peonyu

Platinum Member
Mar 12, 2003
2,038
23
81
No, no they definitely ran themselves into the ground.
They wasted time pursuing MCM quads when they should have strapped two x2's together, like Intel did for the q6600.
Then they chose to delay delay delay bringing Bulldozer to market on a new process (32nm) when they should have shrunk their Thuban x6's to 32nm first, and then worried about Bulldozer.
Then they pissed away all this money on Bulldozer and didn't bother working with Microsoft to get the thread scheduler set straight to work as it does with hyperthreading.

It wasn't bad luck it was stupid decisions.

You got it right.

The picture to me looks like when AMD got new management after the Athlon 64 came out, that the new leaders decided on going purely for budget CPUs. They no longer wanted to compete for being #1 in performance, thats what has hurt them in the long run. Today we have AMD with terrible performance and the price looks bad to since the cpu's deliver so little IPC.

If AMD had continued on the track they were on when they released the A64, I highly doubt they would be in the position they are now. Hell, Im sure Bulldozer would have been kicked into the garbage can as soon as its horrible IPC was noticed. AMD was all about IPC up until A64 [unlike Intel]. All signs point to new management being incompetent and trying to fix what was not broken.
 
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iCyborg

Golden Member
Aug 8, 2008
1,327
52
91
exdeath said:
What ever happened to AMD? They had Intel's nuts in a sling with the K7-K8 then they just kind of sat on their ass and let Intel curb stomp them with Core and that's the last I ever heard of them again.

Actually they did just that.

Not only did they do just that, but Hector was so arrogant and prideful of the fact that AMD had a lead over Intel that they publicly stated to their analysts and shareholders in a CC that they were intentionally reducing their R&D investment for 65nm (process node and CPU designs) because they wanted to enhance their margins instead.

Classic tortoise and the hare.

They thought they had Intel's balls in hand and they started counting their chickens before they hatched.
http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2011/05/29/heres-how-amd-innovates.aspx

AMD has been spending a lot more budget on R&D than Intel, at times more than double. They might need it to keep up with Intel, but it's questionable how sustainable it is to keep decimating your profit levels.
Yes, they lowered their R&D from 30% levels during recession, but it's still more than Intel (as a percentage of revenue of course). I don't see why people think that if they can't keep up consistently with someone having almost an order of magnitude more resources and money, it means they're sitting on their asses. Perhaps give some credit to Intel too? And it would seem others like TSMC who have also fallen behind Intel also got complacent...
 

TuxDave

Lifer
Oct 8, 2002
10,572
3
71
Actually he brings up a valid point.

We all assume that the idea of counting xtors is straightforward like checking the balance in our checking account...but what if it is something more nebulous like word and character counting where the rules of counting (don't count spaces, but do count punctuation marks, etc) make things a tad less binary?

I know if I hit the 10,000 character limit for pm's (yes it happens :$) if I copy the text over to MS Word and do a character count it reports back a very different number than Vbulletin is computing.

Maybe these design tools kinda operate like that when it comes to tabulating the xtor count? Depending on what gets counted as an active poly versus dummy poly (layout, design-rule generated inactive xtor for litho and topo purposes) it may make all the difference between 2B and 1.2B.

It's not as easy as checking a balance.... that is unless you know how to do SQL queries. Then it IS easy as checking a balance.

I can't speak on behalf of AMD but I can basically tell you the # of xtors, the total width of all the xtors, the total number of whatever CMOS logic gate you care about. Hard drive space seems to be cheap and now we have databases of practically anything you want to know about a design. So it IS easy, but I'm guessing that AMD just made a mistake in their query (perhaps forgetting to ignore filler xtors)
 

CTho9305

Elite Member
Jul 26, 2000
9,214
1
81
It's not as easy as checking a balance.... that is unless you know how to do SQL queries. Then it IS easy as checking a balance.

I can't speak on behalf of AMD but I can basically tell you the # of xtors, the total width of all the xtors, the total number of whatever CMOS logic gate you care about. Hard drive space seems to be cheap and now we have databases of practically anything you want to know about a design. So it IS easy, but I'm guessing that AMD just made a mistake in their query (perhaps forgetting to ignore filler xtors)

Does a large inverter (with, say, 8 fingers) usually count as 2 transistors or 16 transistors in these kinds of metrics?
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,118
59
91
A ball in the hand is worth two in the bush.


BS! No amount of anything "in the hand" is worth one or two in the bush

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2011/05/29/heres-how-amd-innovates.aspx

AMD has been spending a lot more budget on R&D than Intel, at times more than double. They might need it to keep up with Intel, but it's questionable how sustainable it is to keep decimating your profit levels.
Yes, they lowered their R&D from 30% levels during recession, but it's still more than Intel (as a percentage of revenue of course). I don't see why people think that if they can't keep up consistently with someone having almost an order of magnitude more resources and money, it means they're sitting on their asses. Perhaps give some credit to Intel too? And it would seem others like TSMC who have also fallen behind Intel also got complacent...

You quote a conversation revolving around a singular point (the 65nm development and Hector's public comments about intentionally slowing down R&D) only to cite something that is also true but no more relevant (that AMD spends a disproportionate amount of revenue on R&D compared to Intel) as if Point A is somehow rendered irrelevant or untrue because Point B exists.

No one is disagreeing with Point B (the data you cite), but the conversation about Point A is one worth engaging in a conversation like this IMO.
 

TuxDave

Lifer
Oct 8, 2002
10,572
3
71
Does a large inverter (with, say, 8 fingers) usually count as 2 transistors or 16 transistors in these kinds of metrics?

The database I'm normally used to looking at would count that as two. Of course thanks to finfets its a ton easier to come up with a way to count it as 16 if that's what you wanted. I don't know how publications come up with their numbers because if they want a good indication of transistor density the would need to normalize it to a minimum sized inverter or something. I know if I was in graduate school I would probably quote the two number because that was the easiest number for me to get
 
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