8800GT falls apart at 8XAA

[yacoub]

lol @ this thread

 

[dreddfunk]

I had a long post prepared to reply to you Distant, but it seemed less than satisfactory, because I drew conclusions without asking for clarification, which is inappropriate.

From what I can tell of your arguments concerning uncivil discourse, however, I disagree with you strongly.

Still, I'll ask a few questions for clarification.

First, how do you think arguments are most forcefully and effectively made?

Second, do you truly mean to equate civility with cowardice?

Third, do you think that it is best to ignore those that make completely irrational arguments, or to refute those arguments in the strongest terms, even if that means being uncivil?

Cheers.

 

[badnewcastle]

:laugh:

 

[HexiumVII]

If you are upgrading video cards often enough to have an 8800GT what in the world would you not have 1600+ capable monitor. AA? I like AA but the trend nowadays is AA isn't even supported anymore like UT3. 2x would be enough to satisfy most people, 4x you pretty much get rid of any jaggies to the point of what is possible/noticeable.

 

[JACKDRUID]

Originally posted by: Distant
Jack IQ of course varies from game to game at least in some way, but as far as AA proof if you go and take a look at all of the screens on the top of the page of computer base they seem to all have the highest level of AA that was tested on that given game, for example if you look at Gothic you can see the screens have no AA as none of their tests had AA, in FEAR it looks as if the screens were taken with 8xAA on and in those screens looking at the quality of the AA I think it's safe to say they are virtually identical.

I looked through all the screens the other day (not specifically at the AA though) and I only noticed a visual difference really, Lost Planet, in that game it seems both games have their graphical downsides, Nvidia's far away building looks low res in comparison to the ATI screen and the smoke coming out of the build doesn't looks as good, on the flip side the ATI screen is missing the neck fur.

visual inspection isn't really enough to prove ATI has better AA / IQ, since there is only so much our eyes can detect from a picture. I believe if they had used 8xAA for Nvidia cards they would receive the same results as ATI's 8xAA. IMO it is possible for ATI cards to scale BETTER, but their results are just plain ridiculous.

 

[dgevert]

Originally posted by: HexiumVII
If you are upgrading video cards often enough to have an 8800GT what in the world would you not have 1600+ capable monitor. AA? I like AA but the trend nowadays is AA isn't even supported anymore like UT3. 2x would be enough to satisfy most people, 4x you pretty much get rid of any jaggies to the point of what is possible/noticeable.

Agreed...if I had a 19" LCD or something I'd still be using my old 7950GX2. But I use a 24" so I upgraded.

 

[Sparky6string]

Originally posted by: dreddfunk
I had a long post prepared to reply to you Distant, but it seemed less than satisfactory, because I drew conclusions without asking for clarification, which is inappropriate.

From what I can tell of your arguments concerning uncivil discourse, however, I disagree with you strongly.

Still, I'll ask a few questions for clarification.

First, how do you think arguments are most forcefully and effectively made?

Second, do you truly mean to equate civility with cowardice?

Third, do you think that it is best to ignore those that make completely irrational arguments, or to refute those arguments in the strongest terms, even if that means being uncivil?

Cheers.

The response he has drawn here is probably typical of his "uncivil" and aggressively single-minded approach. Who has he convinced with his argument? None that I see. Using facts, intelligent conclusions and persuasive yet respectful arguments are the way to win people over IMO. His abrasive approach is more aimed at stirring up a hornets nest I think, and he knew it.

 

[Distant]

You want to talk about single-minded sparky I think that better describes most everyone thats come into this thread, everyone has come in here with the forgone conclusion that the 8800GT is just flat out better and is unwilling to accept the fact that the card falling apart a 8x is of significant importance.

BFG you clearly didn't even bother looking at the computerbase benchmarks did you? Well if you did you would know that the 8800GTS 640 is in there and it actually doesn't drop like a rock like the 8800GT does once 8xAA is reached.

I'm going to go after this because I think it's clear I'm just going to get the same stupid arguments repeated over and over again, the frame rates were actually playable in 3 of the games at 8x AA 16x12. So until you show me some tests of an 8800GT your comments "Well my GTS can do it!" have no footing at all judging by the computerbase tests.

First off Dr, I don't really think arguments can even be won or lost on the internet because most of the time people are dead set on believing what they do and is pretty much prevented due to the fact that the average person has a pretty big ego.

Second, do you truly mean to equate civility with cowardice? Absolutely in some cases, when your trying to argue a point with someone and they just dismiss the facts or try to drastically downplay or just be completely irrational in general being civil will get you nowhere, then again being an asshole about it isn't always going to accomplish much more either.

Third, do you think that it is best to ignore those that make completely irrational arguments, or to refute those arguments in the strongest terms, even if that means being uncivil?

That depends how big ones ego is and how important the subject at hand is to them. It also depends in front of what audience the argument is being held and what you think that audience is thinking.



I'll just close this off by saying I myself actually wouldn't say buying a 8800GT over a 3870 is a stupid move, but I definitely think the 3870 is a far better deal then most people here give it credit for.

I will say though going with 8800GT sli over 3870 Crossfire is indeed a stupid move since crossfires scaling is far better then that of SLI.

 

[JACKDRUID]

Originally posted by: Distant
So until you show me some tests of an 8800GT your comments "Well my GTS can do it!" have no footing at all judging by the computerbase tests..

He is probably using normal 8xAA on his card which would yield acceptable performance. Computerbase should have used 8xAA, but instead, they used 8xQAA on Nvidia card which degraded performance (intentional?).

here is an explaination of xQaa

 

[Tempered81]

Originally posted by: Distant
conclusion that the 8800GT is just flat out better

I myself actually wouldn't say buying a 8800GT over a 3870 is a stupid move

I definitely think the 3870 is a far better deal then most people here give it credit for.

true true true

 

[Sparky6string]

Originally posted by: Distant
You want to talk about single-minded sparky I think that better describes most everyone thats come into this thread, everyone has come in here with the forgone conclusion that the 8800GT is just flat out better and is unwilling to accept the fact that the card falling apart a 8x is of significant importance.

That's exactly the sort of response you're liable to get with the approach you've taken. I mean you've started a thread to debase a popular card and you've done it in obnoxious fashion. I can't think you'd actually believe that you would get praised for that.

Understand that I don't have a dog in this fight- I own an 8800 GTS 320mb. True I'm about to step up to the GT, but I have nothing against the 3870 and am not about to refute the facts. I'm not emotionally invested in any card. As a result though I'm able to clearly see both sides here and also see why you're not exactly Mr. Popularity 'round these parts. Just sayin...

 

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: Distant


Quake 4, Serious Sam 2, GTR2, WoWBC, Guild Wars Night fall, BF2142, CnC3, Warhammer Dark Crusade, Star Wars EAW, UT3, Civ 4, Rome Total War, Blood Money, NVN2, Act of War, Trackmania, TOCA, POP, GC2, Portal, King Kong, S&M, Silent Hunter, SUpcom.

I'd be there are quite a few games in there that you will be able to play at a higher level of AA be it 8/12/16 or higher on the 3870 were the 8800GT would choke.

Yep, which is what I said earlier. Some people just want to continue to bury their head in the sand though. Ignorance is bliss I guess. There are many old games were 8xAA would be playable with the 38xx cards, and not as much, or at all on the 8800gt because it does choke at 8xAA. You listed a lot, and there are even many more than that. Thats not to say the 8800gt is a bad card at all, that would be, dare I say, dumb. Its a better choice for higher frames in most circumstances, and in most games.

But not everyone cares about that much AA, so to them it doesnt matter. To the vast majority of people I dont think it matters to. But as always, not everyones needs or wants, are the same for others. You have to pick what suits you best. The fact that the 3850 does this well at 8x is amazing to me. There is nothing even close to the price range that can compete with cranked up AA, or not.

I do wish reviews would test more games, than ones that came out in the last 6 months. There are still a ton of people playing BF2, HL2, and even W: ET. In fact, they are three of the four most played online games out right now. I would like to see tests with these cards, with every IQ option cranked up. Max AA, max AF, max IQ all over. Sadly, its never done that Ive seen.

 

[Cookie Monster]

8xQAA is basically the traditional 8xMSAA.
8xCSAA or 16xCSAA is abit different and is better suited for cards that lack framebuffer and bandwidth.

 

[Keysplayr]

Does everyone here just love how virtually overnight, thanks to computerbase, that the importance of AA went from "AA isn't really that important once you hit higher resolutions (2900XT defense for poor AA performance), to "I can't stress the importance of 8xAA."

I mean, wow.

 

[PhatoseAlpha]

So, uh....if you can actually tell the difference between 4xAA and 8xAA enough to care, and if you primarily play old games, and you're willing to drop $200+ to play old games with presumably even less jaggy jaggies, and if you're willing to sacrifice a few FPS in newer games at lower settings, the 3870 is your best choice?

Well, that's what I call a finely targeted market.



Either way, anybody got some IQ comparison shots between the 2 cards in 4x/8x modes? It really seems kind of silly to have a discussion like these without seeing what the IQ difference is.

 

[taltamir]

Still not ever a single person acknowledged (to refute or agree with) the claim that the test was done on a 8800GT 256MB vs a 3870 512MB...

Is it true or not? I Went through the original review and they were decidedly LACKING in info about what they did with the 8800GT.

 

[Pacfanweb]

First of all, Distant needs a recount. He stated the GT was faster at 8x AA in only one of the benchmarks. Wrong. I counted at least 6 including 3D Mark, and one tie. Plus several others that were at unplayable framerates anyway, so they're irrelevant.

So you can cherry pick a very few situations from all those benchmarks that are actually playable and find a very few instances where the ATI card is faster. Congrats. And even then, it's less than 10 fps. And in all other situations, the GT beats or completely rapes the 3870.

I happen not to care as much as you obviously do, since I have both ATI and Nvidia cards. I don't understand people getting so hot and bothered by this stuff. Buy what you like and use it.

When I build a computer, I'll buy whatever is the best bang for the buck at that time....I don't care who makes it. Last complete system I built, I used a Radeon 9700 Pro, which was undisputedly the fastest card ever at that point. This time, I went with fastest card for the money and there is no logical argument against the 8800 GT right now.

 

[BFG10K]

I like AA but the trend nowadays is AA isn't even supported anymore like UT3

You can get AA on nVidia cards in Unreal 3 based games. Ironically you can't on ATi, at least not without losing application specific optimizations leading to a severe performance drop and/or incorrect application rendering.

I wonder why those championing AA and siding with ATi don't appear to care about that rather alarming fact?

I believe if they had used 8xAA for Nvidia cards they would receive the same results as ATI's 8xAA.

No, this isn't true. In order to paint a fair picture they have to use 8xQ on nVidia because ATi's 8xAA mode is 8xMSAA like 8xQ.

He is probably using normal 8xAA on his card which would yield acceptable performance.

Actually the only 8x modes I used were 8xQ and 8xS, both of which are quite a bit more demanding than 8x. It's all right there in my link along with an AA chart for reference.

BFG you clearly didn't even bother looking at the computerbase benchmarks did you?

Of course I did.

Well if you did you would know that the 8800GTS 640 is in there and it actually doesn't drop like a rock like the 8800GT does once 8xAA is reached.

Pardon? In most of the 8xAA benchmarks the GT is faster than the GTS!

Some people just want to continue to bury their head in the sand though. Ignorance is bliss I guess. There are many old games were 8xAA would be playable with the 38xx cards, and not as much, or at all on the 8800gt because it does choke at 8xAA.

On what basis are you making this claim given there weren?t any old games running 8x in that review? You can?t make an inference based on fringe cases of new games so your closest comparison there would be new games running at low resolutions, like 1280x1024, cases where the GT is generally faster.

 

[cputeq]

Newsflash:

Card with 256-bit memory access width slows down when enabling 8xAA in modern games. You heard it here first!

This is really a non-issue.