8800GT falls apart at 8XAA

[Syntax Error]

Conspiracy theories FTW!

 

[Distant]

Quicksilver yes in those games it happens to be unplayable framerates with the exception of prey, ano17 and Oblvion, but their are plenty of other not brand spanking new games your going to want to play or new games that don't have high requirements. All of Valves games are an excellent example of this.

And Jack what the hell are you talking about seriously? Are you blind? How does this counter anything any other site has showed? The 8800GT for the most part cleans house at 4xAA just like all other sites show, no other site has test 8xAA so you can't tell me "Well other sites counter it" because they don't.

More importantly I think is how this carries over to SLI/CrossFire were you wouldn't even want to run anything less then 8x AA (aside from crysis) on any 17 to 21 inch monitor (what most have) theirs no tests of this yet, but the circumstantial evidence suggests the 8800GT will nose dive there as well.

 

[dreddfunk]

Originally posted by: Distant
There is a difference between 4 and 8 and both nvidia and ATI can be tested at 8x in the same way so can you really tell me that what cards can do on a 30 inch monitor is more important then 8x AA tests on lower resolutions?

Distant - Yes, my opinion is that testing on a 30" monitor is much more important that testing for the differences between 4x and 8xAA. Hard data is scarce on such an issue, but I would guess that the number of gamers interested in getting a larger monitor (which means a higher resolution in the LCD age) likely far exceeds the number that can appreciate the difference between 4x and 8xAA. Similarly, people concerned whether or not a specific GPU can jump to the next higher resolution at a static AA level likely outnumber those concerned if it can jump to the next higher AA level at a static resolution (provided that it can do AA).

Given that hardware review sites run on advertising revenue (among other things) and that they need their reviews to be valuable so that people will frequent their sites, I imagine that they've figured out that most of their viewers, at least, are more interested in resolution scaling than in AA scaling.

I am truly sorry that this doesn't reflect your own needs, but, if there are enough others who are like-minded, then those sites addressing 4x versus 8xAA will likely garner some viewers (and some advertising revenue).

Originally posted by: DistantI bet you think high AA tests are irrelevant for sli/crossfire comparisons as well?

Distant - to whom are you speaking here? It is poor posting form not to say. All sorts of problems arise from arbitrarily grouping people based on one opinion, much less using that single opinion to extrapolate what they all must think on other topics.

Also, restating someone else's arguments, or, more to the point, placing arguments into another person's mouth, is one of the most manipulative ways to argue.

There is a great deal of difference between an honest question, "Do you think that 8xAA test are irrelevant on multi-GPU setups," and a leading, inflammatory question, "I *bet* you think high AA tests are irrelevant on multi GPU setups."

In the first, you are looking for an honest answer to clarify your knowledge of someone else's opinions. In the second, you are putting words in their mouth, setting up a straw-man against which to argue a point.

A sound piece of advice I've tried to follow through the years: don't tell others what they think, ask them politely for clarification. If you continue to tell people what their own arguments are, I can only conclude that you are interested in inciting arguments and winning debates, not understanding other posters.

Originally posted by: Distantif you really don't think that anyones going to care that their new 8800GT they bought is going to tank when they try to run a game at 8xAA your the one who needs to take the goggles off.

I have a couple of issues with this statement. First, if the 8800GT 'tanks' at 8xAA, then so does the 3870--the difference between the two is not significant. Second, you again do not specify to whom you are speaking and make assumptions about what others must think based on minimal knowledge of their actual opinions. Again, that's poor form and likely will provoke an angry response.

Then again, it is entirely possible that an angry response is exactly what you were hoping for. I hope I'm wrong.

Cheers.

 

[dreddfunk]

Distant - kudos in the following posts for actually identifying to whom you are speaking. That is at least a good first step.

Rhetorical and derogatory questions like, "Are you blind?" certainly don't help foster a respectful debate. If you think Jack is mistaken, why not patiently explain your differences of opinion to him? He just might be persuaded that you are right?

I can guarantee that he will be loathe to agree with you after having been insulted.

Cheers.

 

[Tempered81]

Originally posted by: Ackmed
From another thread, nicely typed up, so Ill just paste it.

Originally posted by: tuteja1986
DX 9 benchmark

Anno 1701 1600x1200 4xAA/16xAF
HD3870 : 35,7
8800GT : 31,3
HD3850 : 30,6

Clive Barker's Jericho 1600x1200 8xAA/16xAF:
HD3870 : 15,6
8800GT : 5,6
HD3850 : 1,3

Colin McRae Dirt 1600x1200 4xAA/16xAF
HD3870 : 15,8
8800GT : 4,5
HD3850 : 4,3

Company of heroes 1600x1200 8xAA/16xAF
8800GT : 64,2
HD3870 : 58,7
HD3850 : 18,6

F.E.A.R 1600x1200 8xAA/16xAF:
HD3870 : 40
8800GT : 40
HD3850 : 33


Gothic 3 1600x1200 16xAF:
8800GT : 37,6
HD3870 : 20,8
HD3850 : 18,0

Oblivion 1600x1200 8xAA/16xAF:
HD3870 : 39,7
8800GT : 35,7
HD3850 : 34,3

Prey 1600x1200 8xAA/16xAF:
HD3870 : 43,8
8800GT : 36,4
HD3850 : 36,9

Rainbow Six Vegas ? 1600x1200
HD3870 : 46,3
8800GT : 40,2
HD3850 : 39,7

Stalker 1600x1200 1xAA/16xAF:
HD3870 : 31,5
8800GT : 19,6
HD3850 : 14,0

DX10 benchmark

Bioshock 1600x1200 1xAA/16xAF:
HD3870 : 37,0
8800GT : 42,8
HD3850 : 31,8

Call of Juarez 1600x1200 4xAA/16xAF:
HD3870 : 16,8
8800GT : 10,3
HD3850 : 6,3

Company of Heroes 1600x1200 8xAA/16xAF:

HD3870 : 20,1
8800GT : 16,3
HD3850 : 14,6

Crysis 1600x1200 4xAA/16xAF
HD3870 : 10,6
8800GT : 7,6
HD3850 : 4,3

Lost Planet 1600x1200 8xAA/16xAF Snow:
HD3870 : 18,8
8800GT : 16,3
HD3850 : 7,8

World in conflict 1600x1200 4xAA/16xAF:
HD3870 : 28,4
8800GT : 37,5
HD3850 : 23,9


http://www.computerbase.de/art...adeon_hd_3850_rv670/2/

When you turn on HQ and AA , 8800GT ain't so destroyer driverheaven make it out to be.

The 3870 is faster in every 8xAA test but one. And faster overall. Even the 3850 is right up there.

For the people claiming there is no need for AA above 1600x1200, or for 8xAA, you dont have a clue what other people like, or want.

why play crysis at 10.7 fps? When you turn the resolution and AA down in that scenario, the 8800GT 512 smokes both of the new ati cards. Booyah-keyshawn Jackson.

With these benches i guess it depends on which games you play, how high you like your resolution, and if you prefer Anti aliasing. Personally, i would rather have crysis at 1024x7678 with its built in edge_AA at 60fps on a 8800gt vs. 1600x1200 with 8xAAq and 16xAF at 10.7 fps. BooyeahKeyshawN jackson.

I do give credit to the 3870 in fear, Coh, oblivion, and RSix

 

[dgevert]

Some of us DO run games on 24" monitors @ 1920x1200. If I didn't, my 7950GX2 would still have the horsepower to run the current games I have at max settings. But since I do...well, my new 8800GT (arrived yesterday) has been kicking ass in all the games I've played so far. A 3870 would not have been as fast for me.

 

[JACKDRUID]

Originally posted by: Distant
Quicksilver yes in those games it happens to be unplayable framerates with the exception of prey, ano17 and Oblvion, but their are plenty of other not brand spanking new games your going to want to play or new games that don't have high requirements. All of Valves games are an excellent example of this.

And Jack what the hell are you talking about seriously? Are you blind? How does this counter anything any other site has showed? The 8800GT for the most part cleans house at 4xAA just like all other sites show, no other site has test 8xAA so you can't tell me "Well other sites counter it" because they don't.

More importantly I think is how this carries over to SLI/CrossFire were you wouldn't even want to run anything less then 8x AA (aside from crysis) on any 17 to 21 inch monitor (what most have) theirs no tests of this yet, but the circumstantial evidence suggests the 8800GT will nose dive there as well.

Nvidia 8xQAA vs ATI 8xAA

are you not blind for not seeing this? they are using different settings on the two cards. Nvidia 8xQAA with optimzation off vs ATI 8xAA doesn't seem fair, does it?

 

[Distant]

dreddfunk I'll pass on your poor advice for how to talk to people with bad arguments, by your logic not matter how completely freaking ridiculous someones arguement you should be nice and approach it in a no confrontational matter, I disagree and I think your form of thinking jumping into another subject here for a moment is the reason why the completely ridiculous teachings of religions like islam and christianity are still so popular today because until recently no one has had the balls to just flat out say "this is retarded"

Any reasonable person could clearly see that the fear monger and hate you see in Christianity is just ridiculous, anyone who wasn't brain washed from a child should be able to figure out the religion of Christianity feeds off of fear, believe in Jesus or burn forever in hell, it teaches even if you were as bad as Hitler throughout your life if you genuinely give yourself and accept Jesus in your heart as your savior before you die you will be saved. Yet figures of great peace, people who have done nothing, but better for world "take for example the Dalai Lama" will forever burn in hell because they didn't submit to the fear mongering teachings.

So sorry I'll skip your advice, I'll give you some advice though! A sound piece of advice I've tried to follow through the years: you don't have to be a coward and you don't have to show people with ridiculous illogical arguments respect you're better off ignoring them altogether then trying to show them respect and starting a civil argument.

Ha ha I could just imagine you trying to have a civil argument with some radical muslim extremist.





Anyway back to the actual topic, if you look at the charts actually the 3870 never tanks it was just a good deal behind at 4xAA, but then catches up because the 8800GT has a dramatic drop off. Beyond that I wouldn't exactly call the gap between the cards insignifcant at 8x as they range from 10 to 258%

I'd also contend that the difference between 8xAA and 4xAA is far more substantial then you make it out to be, of course though you've probably have only viewed the difference (I can see your next rant on the way already about how to argue lmao) from screenshots and you'd be right, the difference isn't that noticable in a screen, but in the same way you need to see Crysis in action to do the graphics justice you have to see AA in action and in games like TF2 (best multiplayer game ever) I notice a substantial difference between 8 and 4x AA and theirs another big leap when you go up to 16x AA as well.


Your comment on why higher resolutions is more significant to the end user is pretty laughable imo.

Have you seen any of the futuremark/Valve surveys on the average persons system? If you did you would know that overwhelmingly people have 17-21 inch monitors and if you do like most people and you go and buy a new videocard like an 8800GT or 3870 I would think you would be expecting to be running games like every single game that uses the UT3 or source engine to date and more at a higher level of AA then 4, hell in some cases you would probably want to go even higher then 8x and maybe to 12 or 16?

In the end your argument seems to be, well even if you buy a 8800GT and your getting over 100 fps at 1600 by 1200 at 4xAA in say counterstrike source, why would you even bother moving up to 8xAA or higher? It's not like there is much of a difference?

Thats ridiculous... You fail to acknowledge that in actually the vast majority of games the majority of people with their 17 to 21 inch monitors will have more then enough head room to move to higher AA's and in this the 8800GT flopping at 8x is significant.


And Jack way to kick yourself in the ass again.


They tested at the setting they thought it took to even the playing field in image quality, by optimization off are you talking about Anisotropic pattern Optimization: Off

Anisotropic filtering and Anti aliasing are two different freaking things, turning that on would not have affected the AA numbers at all.

 

[JustaGeek]

So, Distant.... this is your very first thread at AnandTech, huh...?

Trying to "rip NVidia apart"....?

Very impressive!

You must be very proud of yourself!

Good luck in your future endeavours.

 

[Syntax Error]

Lol, I guess he's arguing that the 3870 is better than an 8800GT because it gets a few frames higher than an 8800GT with a lot of AA on. The problem in that is that the 3870, despite beating the 8800GT in some benches with 8x and 16x AA, is STILL unplayable.

7.6 frames on an 8800GT and 10.6 frames on an 3870 (Crysis) with 4x AA and 16x AF? 3870 wins, but 10.6 frames per second is still sad.

;]

 

[JustaGeek]

Originally posted by: Syntax Error
Lol, I guess he's arguing that the 3870 is better than an 8800GT because it gets a few frames higher than an 8800GT with a lot of AA on. The problem in that is that the 3870, despite beating the 8800GT in some benches with 8x and 16x AA, is STILL unplayable.

7.6 frames on an 8800GT and 10.6 frames on an 3870 (Crysis) with 4x AA and 16x AF? 3870 wins, but 10.6 frames per second is still sad.

;]

Why the heck would you come to the forum, and the very FIRST time around argue vehemently with everyone that comes along...?

About 3-4 FPS one way or the other....?!?

C'mon pal, gimme a break!

 

[tvdang7]

i usually use 2x

 

[JACKDRUID]

Distant,
true/false questions:
1. 100=200?
2. ABC=BBC?
3.QxAA = xAA?

edit : AA info

 

[SLU Aequitas]

Dear Distant,

for bringing in religion to a (non)debate about hardware.

For starting off your time in Anandtech with a post trying to rip apart a game. To echo jaredpace, what's the point anyway of comparing these cards at 8xAA if you can't even get the games to run at a playable framerate, and if you reduce the AA to get the game playable, we're right back at square one where the 8800GT beats out both ATI cards...

Best of luck!
Aequitas

 

[Distant]

syntex/slu how many times do I have to go over this? 3 of the 8 games were at playable frame rates, but more importantly then that there are literally hundreds of older PC games people still play today that they will want to run with some serious AA on now that they have the power to and even though some of the 8xAA victories are rather small, some of them are also huge over 250%

Not to even mention how this may translate to a SLI/Crossfire setup.

And jack does bad=good? If you read their review you'd clearly see they stated they tweaked the settings around till it was even so according to them a 3870 running 8xAA = a 8800GT running QxAA

 

[Quiksilver]

To tell you the truth if I were to play a modern game now it would be at lower settings where the 8800GT seems to excel at, however I could careless about these games because I'm not going to be able to play at the image quality I would like it to be. It's the reason why I like older games because you can get playable frame rates and be able to max out the eye candy, for that reason is why I would even consider the 3870 over the 8800GT. It would be kind of nice if more reviewers went back and tested these older games (other than half life 2) with 8X AA & 16X AF at high resolutions.

 

[JACKDRUID]

Originally posted by: Distant
...a 3870 running 8xAA = a 8800GT running QxAA

any prove?

are you implying 8800gt has worse IQ than 3870?

do you REALLY believe that?

OR

perhaps they just made a mistake of testing 2 cards at different settings...

 

[Distant]

Jack IQ of course varies from game to game at least in some way, but as far as AA proof if you go and take a look at all of the screens on the top of the page of computer base they seem to all have the highest level of AA that was tested on that given game, for example if you look at Gothic you can see the screens have no AA as none of their tests had AA, in FEAR it looks as if the screens were taken with 8xAA on and in those screens looking at the quality of the AA I think it's safe to say they are virtually identical.

I looked through all the screens the other day (not specifically at the AA though) and I only noticed a visual difference really, Lost Planet, in that game it seems both games have their graphical downsides, Nvidia's far away building looks low res in comparison to the ATI screen and the smoke coming out of the build doesn't looks as good, on the flip side the ATI screen is missing the neck fur.

 

[taltamir]

mmm... one person here made the claim that those bechies are of the 256MB of the 8800GT being compared to the 512MB versions of the 3870 (and maybe the 3850 as well?).. This makes a huge difference if that is the case, but I looked a at the original review and I didn't see it. In fact the entire review is an ode to AMD...

 

[customcoms]

I will end this argument right now. In the older titles you claim people are going to be running 8x AA and 16x AF, both cards are going to produce playable framerates (read: look at the HL2:Episode 2 benchmarks) all the way through 1920x1200 with the AA and AF maxed out (for the most part), in which case go for the cheaper card (ATI HD3870 right now), since they will in essence be doing the same thing. But you won't just be playing old games on your brand spanking new gpu that <10,000 other people in the world even have, now will you? In those cases, the 8800GT 512mb is going to give you higher (read: playable) frame rates up through 1600x1200 WITHOUT AA in most demanding titles (read: Crysis). Basically, I am repeating what Anandtech and many other review sites concluded: At each MSRP, the higher priced card is going to give you the same price difference back in performance (ex, an 8800GT 512mb card that costs 10% more than a HD3870 is going to give you 10% more performance on average). The only exception is the HD3850 512mb significantly outperforms the 256mb 8800GT at 1600x1200 due to the increased frame buffer.

The real thing we should be debating is why these parts aren't at MSRP. Oh, wait, thats a basic economics question that a 5th grader from the 1920's could answer...I'll just go back to girls and Quake Wars now.

 

[Avalon]

Warsteiner Dunkle is a great beer.

 

[Distant]

Thats not really true custom I could easily see an 8800GT based on the info we've seen fail to pull off 16x AA in HL2, DODS etc their isn't some drop off were games just become butter easy to run on any setting like you make it out.

Quake 4, Serious Sam 2, GTR2, WoWBC, Guild Wars Night fall, BF2142, CnC3, Warhammer Dark Crusade, Star Wars EAW, UT3, Civ 4, Rome Total War, Blood Money, NVN2, Act of War, Trackmania, TOCA, POP, GC2, Portal, King Kong, S&M, Silent Hunter, SUpcom.

I'd be there are quite a few games in there that you will be able to play at a higher level of AA be it 8/12/16 or higher on the 3870 were the 8800GT would choke.

Throw in Crossfire/SLI and you have an even more interesting situation with all of the latest games were you would think they'd be able to do many of them at 12/16 times AA, but you may run into a major choke with the 8800GT or hell even the GTS512s that you wouldn't run into with the 3870's as now if you go look at the new review for the 8800GTS 512 on computerbase you see that in some ultra high settings the 3870s hold up even better then the 8800GTX Ultra and surpass it, of course their not playable frame rates, but put two cards together and you could easily see some of those super setting becoming playable were they would not be on GT/GTS 512 sli rigs.

Especially when you take into account that the tests from xpreview show the 3870's in crossfire scale far better then the 8800GT's

 

[BFG10K]

With those kinds of low scores does it really matter that ATi is winning? It's kind of like picking a 2600XT over a 8600 GT because the former gets 12 FPS in DX10 while the latter "only" gets 10 FPS.

The fact is ATi?s AA is generally vastly slower except in slideshow situations nobody cares about.

To show 2560x1600 with 8xAA in new games as an ATi "victory" is really clutching at straws.

Someone made the point about old games but old games won't perform like that; old games will perform like new games but running at lower resolutions, like 1280x1024.

If you're gaming with 1600x1200 or up there's hardly a need for any level of AA.

Rubbish.

Thats not really true custom I could easily see an 8800GT based on the info we've seen fail to pull off 16x AA in HL2, DODS etc their isn't some drop off were games just become butter easy to run on any setting like you make it out.

Uh-huh, and how exactly would you ?see? that?

16xCSAA is much faster than 8xMSAA (tested here); it?s usually only 15%-20% slower than 4xMSAA.

The fact is ATi has no answer to CSAA given their lower AA modes have inferior IQ and higher CFAA modes have exorbitant performance hits with IQ that?s questionably better at best.

I'd be there are quite a few games in there that you will be able to play at a higher level of AA be it 8/12/16 or higher on the 3870 were the 8800GT would choke.

I tested 33 games and there were plenty that were playable at high AA levels on a 8800 GTS 640 MB, a card which is slower than the 8800 GT.

Anyone that thinks otherwise is clearly only looking at fringe (and meaningless) results and has never actually gamed with high AA modes on nVidia cards.

And again the higher CFAA modes on ATi generally have far higher performance hits than 8xAA because they (among other things) sample outside the current pixel's boundary.

 

[40sTheme]

This thread is funny. It almost reminds me of an akshayt thread, but not quite as mean and a different situation.
Way to ruin your first 7 posts, Distant.

 

[Keysplayr]

Why is everyone arguing about AA scores that aren't anywhere near playable? I don't think anybody will be using 8xAA on any recent title. Maybe not even 4x. I usually use 4x for all my games at 1680x1050, except for that monster called Crysis. No AA for that one. So, I don't get why folks are arguing that an 8800GT tanks at 8xAA and it is a piece of garbage? I got some news here, both the Nvidia card and the ATI card choked. So what's the purpose of this whole "topic"??? Is the whole argument that ATI "choked" a little less? This is terribly funny.