8GB VRAM not enough (and 10 / 12)

[BFG10K]

8GB

• Dying Light 2, Battlefield 2042, Avatar Frontiers of Pandora, Call of Duty Modern Warfare 3, Starfield, Forza Horizon 5, Horizon Forbidden West, Alan Wake 2, The Last of Us, Tekken 8, FC 24, Detroit Become Human, Death Stranding, Alone in The Dark, Overwatch 2
  3060 12GB higher 1% low than 4060 8GB https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIfz57wmywg
• Cyberpunk 2077, Diablo 4, Hogwarts Legacy, Horizon Zero Dawn, Microsoft Flight Sim 2020, Witcher 3, Watch Dogs Legion skip to 4K + DLSS for each game https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPiaWWd0xGc
• Ratchet & Clank, Plague Tale Requiem, Last Of Us, Jedi Survivor, Far Cry 6, Hogwarts Legacy, Forza Horizon 5, Cyberpunk 2077 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wr3MckDxMfE&pp=ygUTMTZnYiB2cyA4Z2IgNDA2MCB0aQ==
• Far Cry 6, Godfall, Hogwarts Legacy, Forza Horizon 5, Forspoken, Doom Eternal, Watchdogs Legion https://youtu.be/fJc--C01P90?t=268
• Last Of Us, Resident Evil 4, Callisto Protocol, Plague Tale Requiem, Halo Infinite, Forspoken https://youtu.be/2_Y3E631ro8?t=429
• Last Of Us, Hogwarts Legacy, Resident Evil 4, Forspoken, Plague Tale Requiem, Callisto Protocol https://youtu.be/Rh7kFgHe21k?t=288
• Hogwarts Legacy, Last Of Us, Spider Man Remastered, Doom Eternal, Forza Horizon 5 https://youtu.be/R943CbDTq_s?t=1473
• Horizon Forbidden West 4060 has issues @ 1080p + DLSS unless you switch off frame generation and reduce settings to high https://youtu.be/3AyKvI23VGw?t=233
• Horizon Forbidden West 3070 requires reducing textures 2 notches https://youtu.be/xTwEGy6HHKo?t=351
• Deathloop https://youtu.be/lu_XHyO-6zY?t=918
• Ghost Recon Breakpoint https://youtu.be/iUGppQVpXzU?t=529
• Resident Evil 2 https://youtu.be/Aa-gsgRjMII?t=796
• Talos Principle 2 https://youtu.be/K6FATQAuEwI?t=337
• Spider Man Remastered https://youtu.be/vRVR_plVSlc?t=1060
• Witcher 3 https://youtu.be/vRVR_plVSlc?t=1240

Horizon Forbidden West 3060 is faster than the 2080 Super despite the former usually competing with the 2070. Also 3060 has a better 1% low than 4060 and 4060Ti 8GB.

Spoiler

Resident Evil Village 3060TI/3070 tanks at 4K and is slower than the 3060/6700XT when ray tracing:

Spoiler

Company Of Heroes 3060 has a higher minimum than the 3070TI:

Spoiler

10GB / 12GB

• Plague Tale Requiem 3080 10GB tanks if you enable ray tracing, would be fast enough if it had more VRAM because if you stop moving, the framerate stabilizes to >60FPS https://youtu.be/7zjrMww3fAc?t=496
• Hogwarts Legacy 4K + RT, 4060Ti 16GB is faster than 4070 12GB https://youtu.be/X-h_R488Mq8?t=191

Reasons why still shipping 8GB since 2014 isn't NV's fault.

Spoiler

1. It's the player's fault.
2. It's the reviewer's fault.
3. It's the developer's fault.
4. It's AMD's fault.
5. It's the game's fault.
6. It's the driver's fault.
7. It's a system configuration issue.
8. Wrong settings were tested.
9. Wrong area was tested.
10. Wrong games were tested.
11. 4K is irrelevant.
12. Texture quality is irrelevant as long as it matches a console's.
13. Detail levels are irrelevant as long as they match a console's.
14. There's no reason a game should use more than 8GB, because a random forum user said so.
15. It's completely acceptable for the more expensive 3070/3070TI/3080 to turn down settings while the cheaper 3060/6700XT has no issue.
16. It's an anomaly.
17. It's a console port.
18. It's a conspiracy against NV.
19. 8GB cards aren't meant for 4K / 1440p / 1080p / 720p gaming.
20. It's completely acceptable to disable ray tracing on NV while AMD has no issue.
21. Polls, hardware market share, and game title count are evidence 8GB is enough, but are totally ignored when they don't suit the ray tracing agenda.

According to some people here, 8GB is neeeevaaaaah NV's fault and objective evidence "doesn't count" because of reasons(tm). If you have others please let me know and I'll add them to the list. Cheers!

 

[jpiniero]

Nvidia believes that the total addressable market is so dominated by 8GB cards that developers will continue to support them

Developers don't do squat. Which is part of the problem.

 

[Ranulf]

My brain melted when I read that article

A common side effect of reading DF content sadly. I'm sure it is somewhere in this thread where they were all about the larger vram on rtx 20 series in Doom 2016 or whatever but then ignored the low ram on the 3070/3080.

This reminds me yet again of the drama that popped up again 3 years ago over the fx8350 vs the 2500k cpus. The space heater fx wins out in the long run vs the intel options given thread count. FX won out ten years ago because of price/perf for most. I've had two nvidia cards in 9 years now, 3.5GB to 8GB. I guess I should just help the spatula fund for team green with another card that will be lucky to last its own generation.

 

[blckgrffn]

Developers don't do squat. Which is part of the problem.

Well to be fair they optimize a game for a $400 console and expect that a full on gaming PC will easily be faster in every metric and ship it. We’ve seen it play out several times now.

Then it runs bad on lower end GPUs and if the player base makes enough noise they tweak it to suck less. And if there isn’t enough of a player base or enough complaining, who cares? Not enough pressure to get it on the next sprint or two if the right people to address the issues are even still on payroll or the project.

Game development is punishing atm.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Page 7 | Nvidia GeForce RTX 4060 Ti 8GB review: the disappointment is real

The Digital Foundry review of the Nvidia RTX 4070, looking at performance, power efficiency, RT, DLSS 3 and more. This page: design, power efficiency testing.

www.eurogamer.net

WOW. That review is just /thread.

Anyone disagrees, point them to that review!

 

[marees]

Text version (for 4060 ti 8gb vs 16gb)

with the exception of entry-level options, you shouldn't be buying 8GB graphics cards anymore. 12GB is now the bare minimum, and 16GB is the ideal target.
https://www.techspot.com/review/2856-how-much-vram-pc-gaming/

What Does Running Out of VRAM Look Like?​

1. Halo Infinite —​

   • ultra preset with ray tracing enabled is out of the question, as it uses 10.3GB at 1080p and 11GB at 4K

2. Forspoken​

   • Upon release, Forspoken would miss all textures without enough VRAM, resulting in a horrible-looking game.
   • Now, it removes textures for everything not currently in view and tries to load them where they are most obvious. This results in texture pop-in and sometimes texture cycling, where high-quality textures appear and disappear, (as we've also observed in Hogwarts Legacy. )

3. Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart —​

   • It is possible to use the very high setting at 1080p on an 8GB GPU, but you will likely notice some frame time issues, and it's unlikely that all textures will be rendered at full quality. Enabling ray tracing with the very high preset won't end well, as this uses 11.2GB of VRAM. If you enable frame generation, it will push you over 12GB.

4. Cyberpunk 2077: Phantom Liberty —​

   • Problems start to occur for 8GB graphics cards when enabling ray tracing, which pushes memory usage to 11GB at 1080p and 12GB at 1440p. If you enable frame generation as well, you're looking at 12GB of usage at 1080p, 13.5GB at 1440p, and 16.5GB at 4K.

5. Forza Motorsport —​

   • ultra preset with ray tracing enabled is out of the question, though, as it uses 10.3GB at 1080p and 11GB at 4K

6. The Last of Us Part 1 —​

   • Even after several optimization patches, the game still requires more than 8GB of VRAM at 1080p if you wish to use the 'ultra' preset.

7. Avatar: Frontiers of Pandora —​

   • A quick in-game comparison between the 8GB and 16GB versions of the RTX 4060 Ti at 1440p using the ultra preset showed the 16GB model delivering 25% higher 1% lows.

8. Homeworld 3 —​

   • Those playing Homeworld 3 with an 8GB graphics card should avoid the 'epic' quality preset and instead stick to 'high' as the maximum setting. Though 'high' does result in noticeable frame time performance, we recommend 'medium' as this will keep you within an 8GB buffer, even at 1440p.

9. Hogwarts Legacy —​

   • 8GB graphics cards are limited to the 'high' preset without any ray tracing at 1080p and 1440p. Enabling the 'ultra' preset will result in either missing textures or poor frame time performance.

10. Starfield — not memory-hungry, until 4K​

11. Horizon: Forbidden West —​

    • In Horizon Forbidden West, in some in-game cutscenes, the 16GB model was up to 35% faster and had fewer frametime spikes, which is more noticeable during gameplay.
    • On average, the 16GB model was 40% faster and offered significantly better frame time performance, resulting in a much smoother and more consistent experience.
    • Even with DLSS upscaling, the 16GB model is much better, offering higher frame rate performance with better frame time consistency. In our tests, we saw the 16GB model achieving 73 fps on average compared to 49 fps for the 8GB model – that's nearly a 50% improvement explained by having the sufficient VRAM capacity.

12. Senua's Saga: Hellblade 2 —​

    • Senua's Saga: Hellblade II will use more than 8GB of VRAM at 1080p with the 'high' preset and well over that if you want to enable frame generation.

13. Ghost of Tsushima —​

    • if you enable DLSS frame generation, you might see some issues at 1440p and almost certainly at 4K

14. Alan Wake 2 —​

    • At 1080p, an 8GB GPU will suffice for the medium and high presets. However, enabling ray tracing will be problematic as this requires over 10GB, so a 12GB VRAM buffer is necessary here

Imo, VRAM is usually not an issue at high end where customers have money to upgrade to next tier

But budget tier (1080p ultra, 1440p med/high, 4K low) this is a major issue. The 4060 ti 16gb is now $440. As digital foundry reviwer said, it should have launched at $400. (After all going by die size it is the 4050 ti & not the 4060 ti)

Likewise $350 is reasonable for 7700xt or $300 for upcoming 8gb navi 44 (so that would make a 16gb navi 44 at $350)

Likewise 4070 ti should have been 16gb. Nvidia 'fixed' that with the 4070 ti super

 

[psolord]

Far Cry 6, Witcher 3 and Warhammer III run counter to your assertion that brute force power matters more than VRAM. How come 3060 12GB turns defeat at 1080p in these games to a victory at 4K in the same game?

This is a clear example, of people seeing only what they want to see, in this thread. I mean the 3060ti is right there and is still faster even at 4k.

Spoiler: 4k tests

Also please don't look at 4k results for cards that are barely 1080p.

We have also seen time and again, that AMD's 8GBs can be more problematic than Nvidia's 8GBs. Nvidia either has better memory management or better compression or both.

The fact of the matter remains, that we have reached 2024 and the 12GBs on the 3060, are as useful as an anus on the elbow.

 

[psolord]

How can you be so sure? You didn't play these games with a 4070 Ti Super. Do you have GPU performance profiling tools which indicated that it was not a VRAM issue causing the performance slowdowns? May we see the proof?

Well, when you see 40fps, with ~10GB vram usage and power draw at 230W+, at 1080p, you know you are facing gpu processing power issues.

I am away from my 4070ti system for the week, but I can give you proof, sure.

By the way, if the 4070 Ti was so successful and amazing and perfect, why did Nvidia bother to release the Super with 16GB VRAM? They could have focused on making it Super in some other way.

Why bother adding additional VRAM if it's so useless? (Gonna brace myself for one of your extraordinary "boggles the mind" answers).

It was a refresh, ergo it should be more enticing. Also different chip.

As a 4070ti owner, I can assure you, that for the most part, the 4070ti cannot utilize its 12GBs. It lacks the gpu power to do so.

This is my 4070ti Riven run timestamped at where disaster struck. (non monetized - and in spoilers because the moderator threatened to ban me)

Spoiler: 4070ti riven

That's not even full 4k. Dlss quality is used. Framerate drops to the 30s, with 9.5GB vram usage.

And this is my Firsth Descendant run, timestamped where it drops to the 40s

Spoiler: 4070ti descendant

That's even worse. Dlss, balanced. vram at 9GBs. No rt.

You think more vram would help?

 

[DAPUNISHER]

When a 12400f is the fastest CPU being paired and tested with a 4070 tie, and speaking for myself of course, I have zero interest.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Yup. A guy so in love with his 8GB cards and 1080p would be expected to at least have a 5800X3D.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Yup. A guy so in love with his 8GB cards and 1080p would be expected to at least have a 5800X3D.

Especially with the extra Nvidia driver overhead. A 12700KF is a great pairing for that card. At least here in the states where it can be found for $176 NIB.

 

[Hitman928]

That's even worse. Dlss, balanced. vram at 9GBs. No rt.

You think more vram would help?

Probably not, but 33% less VRAM would most certainly hurt.

 

[coercitiv]

The perfect card for @psolord almost existed

Nvidia RTX 4070 10GB prototype appears on GPU-Z — the configuration provided more shader cores but less memory and bandwidth

Such a GPU likely would have been a disaster if it had launched.

www.tomshardware.com

the configuration provided more shader cores but less memory and bandwidth

 

[psolord]

When a 12400f is the fastest CPU being paired and tested with a 4070 tie, and speaking for myself of course, I have zero interest.

Yup. A guy so in love with his 8GB cards and 1080p would be expected to at least have a 5800X3D.

I am a 60hz guy and the 12400f is mostly fine. As I am showing you, it's the 4070ti having problems, not the other way around.

Gamegpu also has cpu tests in all their tests. This is the corresponding cpu test of Riven. The cpu has nothing to do with what I showed you above. You are just playing it dumb.

Spoiler: riven cpu tests

Spoiler: the first descendant cpu test

 

[psolord]

Probably not, but 33% less VRAM would most certainly hurt.

The 4070ti? Absolutely. However I was giving an example, in relation to the 12GBs of the 3060. If the 4070ti cannot utilize its vram, while being gpu limited, imagine the 3060.....

Also regarding the 8GBs you are insinuating, I also tested the above on my 8GB cards. No vram problems whatsoever.

To put things in perspective, these are my 3060ti+4770k and GTX1070+2700K runs of first descendant. Same 8GB framebuffer, vastly different results. The 3060ti has always been twice as fast as the 1070 and the framebuffer was never an inhibiting factor.

Spoiler: first descendant 8GB runs

On the 3060ti, vram is at 6GBs and on the 1070 it's at 4.5GBs. The 1070's run is quite telling, because even at medium and fsr, it ain't butt ugly.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Spoiler: the first descendant cpu test

View attachment 103147

CPU does matter in the second game. And since your favorite site is too cheap to afford a 5800X3D/7800X3D, we can't know for sure whether they help, can we?

 

[psolord]

And since you accused me of groundhog day, here's something new, once again.

Breaking Limit benchmark tool results.

Spoiler: breakin limit gpu test

Yeah, vram ain't gonna help in this one either....

 

[dr1337]

Has there ever been a time in the history of compute where less bandwidth and higher latency was a good thing?

All VRAM does is buffer the much slower hard storage right? So like when even indie games are now often over 8gb asset size, is there any logical reason why hardware manufactures should stick to 8gb as a base VRAM size for discrete GPUs?

 

[psolord]

CPU does matter in the second game. And since your favorite site is too cheap to afford a 5800X3D/7800X3D, we can't know for sure whether they help, can we?

The 12400f is averaging 106fps. The framedrops I showed you were waaay below 60. The cpu has nothing to do with that specific example.

The hardware is being given to them by sponsors, which sponsoring has gone to hell due to the war. We have discussed this for the lack of 7700xt/7800xt.

 

[DeathReborn]

Developers don't do squat. Which is part of the problem.

Ever since AMD pushed us into the Low Level API arena (Mantle, DirectX 12, Vulkan) optimisation has fallen on the heads of developers instead of AMD & Nvidia, it's been a mess ever since.

 

[Hitman928]

The 4070ti? Absolutely. However I was giving an example, in relation to the 12GBs of the 3060. If the 4070ti cannot utilize its vram, while being gpu limited, imagine the 3060.....

Also regarding the 8GBs you are insinuating, I also tested the above on my 8GB cards. No vram problems whatsoever.

So which is it, 8 GB is enough or not? Because you just said it's not enough for the 4070ti but then said 8 GB cards have no VRAM problems whatsoever. . .

 

[jpiniero]

Ever since AMD pushed us into the Low Level API arena (Mantle, DirectX 12, Vulkan) optimisation has fallen on the heads of developers instead of AMD & Nvidia, it's been a mess ever since.

It's been that way ever since consoles became the design target for AAA titles.

The difference is that 4 years later, there still isn't parity (and then some) with the consoles on feature sets. And yeah, VRAM is part of that.

Keep in mind Sony still says they are losing money on the PS5 hardware. That's with the official MSRP of the digital model being $50 more, although it's been back at $399 at times.

 

[Ghostsonplanets]

Ever since AMD pushed us into the Low Level API arena (Mantle, DirectX 12, Vulkan) optimisation has fallen on the heads of developers instead of AMD & Nvidia, it's been a mess ever since.

It doesn’t help that at the same time more control was put in the hands of developers with DX12, the industry (specially AAA) suffered a massive brain loss of highly technical people either retiring, moving fields or going towards others gaming areas.

 

[igor_kavinski]

...the industry (specially AAA) suffered a massive brain loss of highly technical people either retiring, moving fields or going towards others gaming areas.

Chief among them, John Carmack.

 

[marees]

Imo, at this point in time, in USA, the 6800 for $340 buries this discussion (assuming you have a case large enough to fit this card)

 

[Mopetar]

No textures have even been missed, aside from Forspoken, which is now fixed. Why? Because I am not an idiot to slide every setting over 9000.

I'm glad that you finally agree with the premise of this thread that 8 GB is not enough and you'll need to turn down settings to compensate for the lack of VRAM.

8GB IS enough though, for all games, if you use correct settings, that absolutely will NOT make your game ugly. All 8GB cards, have gpu power problems first and foremost.

Another, even more subjective phrase to be determined only after the fact. Does my 8 GB card fail miserably to deliver acceptable frame rates? No, must not be using correct settings!

Cards have always been benchmarked against each other by using the top (usually called "ultra" or "very high") quality settings. Obviously you can turn down the settings to get more FPS. What you're claiming means that it's acceptable to pay ~$400 for a card that you will already today need to turn the settings down on at 1080p in order to be able to play some games. Never mind how bad it will be in 3 years or even farther down the line given how often some people upgrade.

Anyone saying 8 GB is fine for anyone beyond casual gamers today is akin to someone in the 60's trying to claim the cigarettes are healthy. In other words, you're just denying evidence to the contrary.