9/11 consipracy movie

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Fingolfin269

Lifer
Feb 28, 2003
17,948
31
91
Originally posted by: noto12ious
Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
Isn't this supposed to be in P&N. Dont pollute any of the other forums with this crap!!

-Kevin

most of the links / info on this thread are purely factual. if you don't have anything to contribute, feel free to get off the thread.

That isn't the point since the same could be said for a lot of P&N topics.
 

noto12ious

Golden Member
Aug 24, 2001
1,131
0
0
Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
Originally posted by: noto12ious
Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
Isn't this supposed to be in P&N. Dont pollute any of the other forums with this crap!!

-Kevin

most of the links / info on this thread are purely factual. if you don't have anything to contribute, feel free to get off the thread.

That isn't the point since the same could be said for a lot of P&N topics.

That was more of a response to his "crap" statement.

The original poster already asked the mods if this thread could remain open here.
 

Votingisanillusion

Senior member
Nov 6, 2004
626
0
0
A very detailed and very interesting analysis of 9/11 by a pilot, found through http://www.911blogger.com/ , the site where you can find daily updates about 9/11 research:
The Impossibility of Flying Heavy Aircraft Without Training

Nila Sagadevan | February 21 2006

Nila Sagadevan is an aeronautical engineer and a qualified pilot of heavy aircraft.

There are some who maintain that the mythical 9/11 hijackers, although proven to be too incompetent to fly a little Cessna 172, had acquired the impressive skills that enabled them to fly airliners by training in flight simulators.

What follows is an attempt to bury this myth once and for all, because I?ve heard this ludicrous explanation bandied about, ad nauseam, on the Internet and the TV networks?invariably by people who know nothing substantive about flight simulators, flying, or even airplanes.

A common misconception non-pilots have about simulators is how ?easy? it is to operate them. They are indeed relatively easy to operate if the objective is to make a few lazy turns and frolic about in the ?open sky?. But if the intent is to execute any kind of a maneuver with even the least bit of precision, the task immediately becomes quite daunting. And if the aim is to navigate to a specific geographic location hundreds of miles away while flying at over 500 MPH, 30,000 feet above the ground the challenges become virtually impossible for an untrained pilot.

And this, precisely, is what the four hijacker pilots who could not fly a Cessna around an airport are alleged to have accomplished in multi-ton, high-speed commercial jets on 9/11.

For a person not conversant with the practical complexities of pilotage, a modern flight simulator could present a terribly confusing and disorienting experience. These complex training devices are not even remotely similar to the video games one sees in amusement arcades, or even the software versions available for home computers.

In order to operate a modern flight simulator with any level of skill, one has to not only be a decent pilot to begin with, but also a skilled instrument-rated one to boot ? and be thoroughly familiar with the actual aircraft type the simulator represents, since the cockpit layouts vary between aircraft.

The only flight domains where an arcade/PC-type game would even begin to approach the degree of visual realism of a modern professional flight simulator would be during the take-off and landing phases. During these phases, of course, one clearly sees the bright runway lights stretched out ahead, and even peripherally sees images of buildings, etc. moving past. Take-offs?even landings, to a certain degree?are relatively ?easy?, because the pilot has visual reference cues that exist ?outside? the cockpit.

But once you?ve rotated, climbed out, and reached cruising altitude in a simulator (or real airplane), and find yourself en route to some distant destination (using sophisticated electronic navigation techniques), the situation changes drastically: the pilot loses virtually all external visual reference cues. S/he is left entirely at the mercy of an array of complex flight and navigation instruments to provide situational cues (altitude, heading, speed, attitude, etc.)

In the case of a Boeing 757 or 767, the pilot would be faced with an EFIS (Electronic Flight Instrumentation System) panel comprised of six large multi-mode LCDs interspersed with clusters of assorted ?hard? instruments. These displays process the raw aircraft system and flight data into an integrated picture of the aircraft situation, position and progress, not only in horizontal and vertical dimensions, but also with regard to time and speed as well. When flying ?blind?, I.e., with no ground reference cues, it takes a highly skilled pilot to interpret, and then apply, this data intelligently. If one cannot translate this information quickly, precisely and accurately (and it takes an instrument-rated pilot to do so), one would have ZERO SITUATIONAL AWARENESS. I.e., the pilot wouldn?t have a clue where s/he was in relation to the earth. Flight under such conditions is referred to as ?IFR?, or Instrument Flight Rules.

And IFR Rule #1: Never take your eyes off your instruments, because that?s all you have!

The corollary to Rule #1: If you can?t read the instruments in a quick, smooth, disciplined, scan, you?re as good as dead. Accident records from around the world are replete with reports of any number of good pilots ? I.e., professional instrument-rated pilots ? who ?bought the farm? because they screwed up while flying in IFR conditions.

Let me place this in the context of the 9/11 hijacker-pilots. These men were repeatedly deemed incompetent to solo a simple Cessna-172 ? an elementary exercise that involves flying this little trainer once around the patch on a sunny day. A student?s first solo flight involves a simple circuit: take-off, followed by four gentle left turns ending with a landing back on the runway. This is as basic as flying can possibly get.

Not one of the hijackers was deemed fit to perform this most elementary exercise by himself.

In fact, here?s what their flight instructors had to say about the aptitude of these budding aviators:

Mohammed Atta: "His attention span was zero."

Khalid Al-Mihdhar: "We didn't kick him out, but he didn't live up to our standards."

Marwan Al-Shehhi: ?He was dropped because of his limited English and incompetence at the controls.?

Salem Al-Hazmi: "We advised him to quit after two lessons.?

Hani Hanjour: "His English was horrible, and his mechanical skills were even worse. It was like he had hardly even ever driven a car. I?m still to this day amazed that he could have flown into the Pentagon. He could not fly at all.?

Now let?s take a look at American Airlines Flight 77. Passenger/hijacker Hani Hanjour rises from his seat midway through the flight, viciously fights his way into the cockpit with his cohorts, overpowers Captain Charles F. Burlingame and First Officer David Charlebois, and somehow manages to toss them out of the cockpit (for starters, very difficult to achieve in a cramped environment without inadvertently impacting the yoke and thereby disengaging the autopilot). One would correctly presume that this would present considerable difficulties to a little guy with a box cutter?Burlingame was a tough, burly, ex-Vietnam F4 fighter jock who had flown over 100 combat missions. Every pilot who knows him says that rather than politely hand over the controls, Burlingame would have instantly rolled the plane on its back so that Hanjour would have broken his neck when he hit the floor. But let?s ignore this almost natural reaction expected of a fighter pilot and proceed with this charade.

More...
 

biggestmuff

Diamond Member
Mar 20, 2001
8,201
2
0
Nila Sagadevan neglects to mention how easy it is to fly a plane when the plane is already in the air. Also, the highjackers weren't flying by any rules. It's easier to fly without any restrictions to how you fly. Nila also has forgotten about the Flight Management Computer (FMC) in the 767/57s; find the destination page and punch in "KDCA" and the plane is on it's way to Washington Reagan National.
 

Votingisanillusion

Senior member
Nov 6, 2004
626
0
0
Originally posted by: biggestmuff
Nila Sagadevan neglects to mention how easy it is to fly a plane when the plane is already in the air. Also, the highjackers weren't flying by any rules. It's easier to fly without any restrictions to how you fly. Nila also has forgotten about the Flight Management Computer (FMC) in the 767/57s; find the destination page and punch in "KDCA" and the plane is on it's way to Washington Reagan National.

You forgot to click More...

In order to perform this bit of electronic navigation, he would have to be very familiar with IFR procedures. None of these chaps even knew what a navigational chart looked like, much less how to how to plug information into flight management computers (FMC) and engage LNAV (lateral navigation automated mode). If one is to believe the official story, all of this was supposedly accomplished by raw student pilots while flying blind at 500 MPH over unfamiliar (and practically invisible) terrain, using complex methodologies and employing sophisticated instruments.

To get around this little problem, the official storyline suggests these men manually flew their aircraft to their respective targets (NB: This still wouldn?t relieve them of the burden of navigation). But let?s assume Hanjour disengaged the autopilot and auto-throttle and hand-flew the aircraft to its intended?and invisible?target on instruments alone until such time as he could get a visual fix. This would have necessitated him to fly back across West Virginia and Virginia to Washington DC. (This portion of Flight 77?s flight path cannot be corroborated by any radar evidence that exists, because the aircraft is said to have suddenly disappeared from radar screens over Ohio, but let?s not mull over that little point.)

According to FAA radar controllers, ?Flight 77? then suddenly pops up over Washington DC and executes an incredibly precise diving turn at a rate of 360 degrees/minute while descending at 3,500 ft/min, at the end of which ?Hanjour? allegedly levels out at ground level. Oh, I almost forgot: He also had the presence of mind to turn off the transponder in the middle of this incredibly difficult maneuver (one of his instructors later commented the hapless fellow couldn?t have spelt the word if his life depended on it).

The maneuver was in fact so precisely executed that the air traffic controllers at Dulles refused to believe the blip on their screen was a commercial airliner. Danielle O?Brian, one of the air traffic controllers at Dulles who reported seeing the aircraft at 9:25 said, ?The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane.?

And then, all of a sudden we have magic. Voila! Hanjour finds the Pentagon sitting squarely in his sights right before him.

But even that wasn?t good enough for this fanatic Muslim kamikaze pilot. You see, he found that his ?missile? was heading towards one of the most densely populated wings of the Pentagon?and one occupied by top military brass, including the Secretary of Defense, Rumsfeld. Presumably in order to save these men?s lives, he then executes a sweeping 270-degree turn and approaches the building from the opposite direction and aligns himself with the only wing of the Pentagon that was virtually uninhabited due to extensive renovations that were underway (there were some 120 civilians construction workers in that wing who were killed; their work included blast-proofing the outside wall of that wing).

I shan?t get into the aerodynamic impossibility of flying a large commercial jetliner 20 feet above the ground at over 400 MPH. A discussion on ground effect energy, tip vortex compression, downwash sheet reaction, wake turbulence, and jetblast effects are beyond the scope of this article (the 100,000-lb jetblast alone would have blown whole semi-trucks off the roads.)

Let it suffice to say that it is physically impossible to fly a 200,000-lb airliner 20 feet above the ground at 400 MPH.

The author, a pilot and aeronautical engineer, challenges any pilot in the world to do so in any large high-speed aircraft that has a relatively low wing-loading (such as a commercial jet). I.e., to fly the craft at 400 MPH, 20 feet above ground in a flat trajectory over a distance of one mile.

Why the stipulation of 20 feet and a mile? There were several street light poles located up to a mile away from the Pentagon that were snapped-off by the incoming aircraft; this suggests a low, flat trajectory during the final pre-impact approach phase. Further, it is known that the craft impacted the Pentagon?s ground floor. For purposes of reference: If a 757 were placed on the ground on its engine nacelles (I.e., gear retracted as in flight profile), its nose would be almost 20 above the ground! Ergo, for the aircraft to impact the ground floor of the Pentagon, Hanjour would have needed to have flown in with the engines buried 10-feet deep in the Pentagon lawn. Some pilot.

At any rate, why is such ultra-low-level flight aerodynamically impossible? Because the reactive force of the hugely powerful downwash sheet, coupled with the compressibility effects of the tip vortices, simply will not allow the aircraft to get any lower to the ground than approximately one half the distance of its wingspan?until speed is drastically reduced, which, of course, is what happens during normal landings.

In other words, if this were a Boeing 757 as reported, the plane could not have been flown below about 60 feet above ground at 400 MPH. (Such a maneuver is entirely within the performance envelope of aircraft with high wing-loadings, such as ground-attack fighters, the B1-B bomber, and Cruise missiles?and the Global Hawk.)

The very same navigational challenges mentioned above would have faced the pilots who flew the two 767s into the Twin Towers, in that they, too, would have had to have first found their targets. Again, these chaps, too, miraculously found themselves spot on course. And again, their ?final approach? maneuvers at over 500 MPH are simply far too incredible to have been executed by pilots who could not solo basic training aircraft.

Conclusion
The writers of the official storyline expect us to believe, that once the flight deck crews had been overpowered, and the hijackers ?took control? of the various aircraft, their intended targets suddenly popped up in their windshields as they would have in some arcade game, and all that these fellows would have had to do was simply aim their airplanes at the buildings and fly into them. Most people who have been exposed only to the official storyline have never been on the flight deck of an airliner at altitude and looked at the outside world; if they had, they?d realize the absurdity of this kind of reasoning.

In reality, a clueless non-pilot would encounter almost insurmountable difficulties in attempting to navigate and fly a 200,000-lb airliner into a building located on the ground, 7 miles below and hundreds of miles away and out of sight, and in an unknown direction, while flying at over 500 MPH ? and all this under extremely stressful circumstances.

 

Votingisanillusion

Senior member
Nov 6, 2004
626
0
0
Maybe we will get to see the Pentagon videos in the end!

Judicial Watch Pushes for Pentagon Strike Videos

Judicial Watch sues DoD for Videos of Attack on Pentagon


Judicial Watch filed a lawsuit against the Department of Defense for withholding a video(s) that allegedly shows United Flight 77 striking the Pentagon on September 11, 2001. The Pentagon claims it cannot release the video because it is "part of an ongoing investigation involving Zacarias Moussaoui," but this is a specious argument. Moussaoui already pled guilty in April 2005 for conspiring with al Qaida to fly planes into U.S. buildings.

[snip] The death penalty phase of his trial is underway with jury selection nearly complete. What's left to investigate? Moreover, while the Freedom of Information Act does allow an exemption for ongoing law enforcement investigations, the Defense Department does not even have law enforcement authority over Moussaoui. That belongs to the Department of Justice or the FBI. One reason we're seeking the information to help put to rest conspiracy theories that a government drone or missile hit the Pentagon rather than the hijacked United airplane. Stay tuned.



It seems like the FOIA requests by flight77.info which have been consistently been rejected are starting to get noticed. Judicial Watch is requesting the videos which recorded Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon to be released to 'put to rest conspiracy theories..'.

http://www.judicialwatch.org/
 
Jun 14, 2003
10,442
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the bit about bombs going off in the WTC before collapse

i dont believe it.

the stairwells in that building and the lift shafts are all clustered in the centre. the floors are attached to this central cluster and then attached to the outer skeleton. it is very possible for the floors to collapse first, which i think was the case. the exo-skeleton design is pretty strong, but relies on being tied to the core by these floors. a couple of floors would be able to become detatched and the building still hold.

i so think its either the collapsing floors pushing air, debris, fire etc down as they fall. or as the building itself begins to fall, i think it isnt too wild to think that, as the building is starting to fall.......its squashing the volume of air inside creating a pressure difference. if the stair wells are clear this air could rush down the stairs, but as soon as it comes to a blockage or something its got no where to go and thus rushes out of the windows like an explosion.
 
Jun 14, 2003
10,442
0
0
i love how they keep comparing the buring buildings to other burning buildings.

the WTC and these other building simply arent built the same.....
 

Votingisanillusion

Senior member
Nov 6, 2004
626
0
0
Interesting analysis of the long cell phone calls aboard the 9/11 planes:
http://www.haloscan.com/comments/dazinith/114049702377915793/

<< I'm not going to pretend to be some cell phone system expert here, but as an electrical engineer I know a few general things. A cell, which is a geographic region that the providers divide up for a particular tower or antenna array, is usually highly directional and well contained. That is to say, for most of the popular implementations of cell tower antennas the gain above the horizon is low and for the vertical is zero. So in theory, if you had you cell phone 50ft directly above your cell tower it would not be able to talk directly to it. I don't recommend trying this, as you might get microwaved in the process of getting 50ft directly above it, as they tend to pump out some significant wattage of radiation. Though in reality, due to reflections you would get a weak signal from the tower below or even get direct signal from a neighboring cell tower on a different channel.

So what I'm saying is there is no signal reception above cell towers, and even if there is, it's weaker than the regular reception range of a cell. Cells tend to be tight in urban (~< 1 mile) and large in rural areas (~miles). So in the best case you might briefly get reception at 5,000 ft in a rural area that has a good reflection of signal to and from the sky. Even so, you will be limited to only a few moments of connection at 500mph, as you'll be blowing through even the large rural cells in no time (36 seconds for 5 miles).

It doesn't require much thought to see that the official details of 9/11 don't add up. Though, unfortunate as it may be, it does require thought. >>
 

SparkyJJO

Lifer
May 16, 2002
13,357
7
81
This conspiracy theory thing is nuts, absolutely nuts - why would our government be planning to attack itself and the country? Its nuts. And don't say it is Bush's idea or anything like that - I do not like Clinton or Kerry but I wouldn't say that even they would do that kind of thing.

BTW this should be in P&N
 

Votingisanillusion

Senior member
Nov 6, 2004
626
0
0
Originally posted by: SparkyJJO
This conspiracy theory thing is nuts, absolutely nuts - why would our government be planning to attack itself and the country? Its nuts. And don't say it is Bush's idea or anything like that - I do not like Clinton or Kerry but I wouldn't say that even they would do that kind of thing.

BTW this should be in P&N

The illusion starts at "our government"...
Plutocrats and oligarchs feel only one thing for people like you: contempt. Actually, that is worse than that: many of them have sadistic tendencies. That is why they start wars. Or kill their own people to convince them that a war needs to be started. They even kill some of their own if needs be: JFK, RFK,...
You are cattle: just dig it. They play two parts: farmers and butchers.
 

BriGy86

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2004
4,537
1
91
one of the videos stated that it was partially done for money
(another reason may have been to start a war)

i don't see it as all that impossible

look at how many people were screwed over in the Enron situation and worldcom
(wasn't that a couple million at stake?)

and here the guy that leased the towers recieved 7.2 billion (roughly)

not to mention the kuwaity gold that was supposedly in the basement
(i have absolutely no idea if this is correct or not, it was mentioned in the video)

greed is a powerful thing

*disclaimer*
im not sure what the actual numbers were in each situation
 

Polish3d

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2005
5,500
0
0
Originally posted by: Votingisanillusion
Originally posted by: SparkyJJO
This conspiracy theory thing is nuts, absolutely nuts - why would our government be planning to attack itself and the country? Its nuts. And don't say it is Bush's idea or anything like that - I do not like Clinton or Kerry but I wouldn't say that even they would do that kind of thing.

BTW this should be in P&N

The illusion starts at "our government"...
Plutocrats and oligarchs feel only one thing for people like you: contempt. Actually, that is worse than that: many of them have sadistic tendancies. That is why they start wars. Or kill their own people to convince them that a war needs to be started. They even some of their own if needs be: JFK, RFK,...
You are cattle: just dig it. They play two parts: farmers and butchers.


Being able to spell beyond a 5th grade level would help your believability.

"tendencies"

not

"tendancies"
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
Originally posted by: Votingisanillusion
Acanthus, you need to read Plato (a story about a cave), I'm not kidding.

I was being sincere, your posting is so out there that i cant even comprehend half of it, because it doesnt even make rational sense.
 

noto12ious

Golden Member
Aug 24, 2001
1,131
0
0
Originally posted by: SparkyJJO
This conspiracy theory thing is nuts, absolutely nuts - why would our government be planning to attack itself and the country? Its nuts. And don't say it is Bush's idea or anything like that - I do not like Clinton or Kerry but I wouldn't say that even they would do that kind of thing.

BTW this should be in P&N

Wow. You don't know your history, do you? I can't believe fellow Americans can be this clueless.




N E W Y O R K, May 1, 2001 In the early 1960s, America's top military leaders reportedly drafted plans to kill innocent people and commit acts of terrorism in U.S. cities to create public support for a war against Cuba.

Code named Operation Northwoods, the plans reportedly included the possible assassination of Cuban émigrés, sinking boats of Cuban refugees on the high seas, hijacking planes, blowing up a U.S. ship, and even orchestrating violent terrorism in U.S. cities.

America's top military brass even contemplated causing U.S. military casualties, writing: "We could blow up a U.S. ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba," and, "casualty lists in U.S. newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation

The plans had the written approval of all of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and were presented to President Kennedy's defense secretary, Robert McNamara, in March 1962. But they apparently were rejected by the civilian leadership and have gone undisclosed for nearly 40 years

source: http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662&page=1
 

noto12ious

Golden Member
Aug 24, 2001
1,131
0
0
Originally posted by: Votingisanillusion
A new documentary has just come out about the use of explosives to bring down the WTC:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1951610169657809939&q=11+revisited

Thanks for the link.

I had no idea the 9/11 Commission denied the existence of the central steel columns (in the Univ of Wisconsin presentation, middle of the video).

Too many lies by the government regarding this matter. Those of you in denial saying "Our government could never do such a thing!"... should really look at the FACTS, and look at our government's history (1 such example, Operation Northwoods)
 

moomoo40moo

Golden Member
Jul 10, 2003
1,449
0
0
I love this stuff, and hope the truth eventually comes out... but what do you guys think will happen when it does come out? A revolution? A raid of the white house? Civil war? Just throwin out some random stuff, but I am generally interested in what could happen....
 

Xcobra

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2004
3,675
423
126
I think there is a probability of conspiracy, i mean gov't officials are the most powerful people in the world, why doubt the possibility of wanting to turn against their people, just my opinion
 
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