9 reasons to vote for John McCain

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: sirjonk

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: sirjonk
Good. Roe V Wade sucks, both as a decision and for the divisive effect it has across the country. It should be a state by state decision and if Roe goes bye bye, some states will ban abortion, others will not. I'll be living where it's legal, thank you very much. Let the people in conservative states who prefer less government interference in their lives deal with the government controlling their bodies. The state governments on the coasts will allow their citizens to make their own choices over their bodies.

While I was also okay at first glance with abortion being a state issue, I'm not anymore. Sure I'd live where it was legal, but there are already cases like in South Dakota where they have chased out all the abortion clinics, and poor people are having to travel hundreds and hundreds of miles to get care.

I would love Roe v. Wade to be overturned as it would further decimate the Republican party (a fair number of people vote on abortion alone), but I'm not willing to do it at the cost to people unfortunate enough to live in a hee-haw state.

Fair point. But there are poor people in every state who cannot relocate. Some states will eventually legalize marijuana and euthanasia. The states that do not will have people in jail for violating those laws who couldn't afford to where such activities were legal. I wouldn't push for a federal mandate on those issues simply because some states choose not to legalize those things within their borders denies the impoverished those choices. Abortion may be considered a much different issue than those I mentioned, but maybe one of the only ways to force legalization of abortion where outlawed would be through demonstrating what happens in a state that makes it illegal. A few high profile and totally unnecessary deaths caused by the ban might have an effect. Otherwise, there's really only so much you can do for people in those states.

Sure, but in my opinion abortion is a much more important right then smoking a joint or dying with dignity. (not that I don't think that they should both be legal too...particularly euthanasia) I won't lose a lot of sleep over someone being sad they can't smoke marijuana, but I wouldn't feel right supporting something that took a way a woman's rights over her body.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Tab
So...

Religious Person : I have a right to speak freely because God gave it to us.

Non-Religious Person : I have a right to speak freely because it just is.

Am I getting your drift?

Sure.

A religious person might believe that God created the universe, and non-religious person might believe that it just is. Either way, it doesn't matter. Some might say that the religious belief provides more value to society by giving it an intrinsic "sacred" value, but I believe that it is also possible to feel a sense of "sacredness" within the objectivity as well. At the same time, one can become focused on the importance of the thing that really IS, as opposed to this transcendental force which gave it to us, which can be manipulated by authority to distort the importance of the real thing.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[maddogchen]

this reads like a bad chain email.

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: maddogchen
this reads like a bad chain email.

Meh. Conservatives will vote for Conservatives.

 

[RightIsWrong]

Originally posted by: maddogchen
this reads like a bad chain email.

I'm actually very impressed. There are "hot button" issues being discussed in a very rational and non-combative manner with respect being given to both sides by the other.

Kudos (so far ) to P&Ners!

 

[dphantom]

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: maddogchen
this reads like a bad chain email.

Meh. Conservatives will vote for Conservatives.

That's the problem. There are no conservatives in this presidential election. You have either socialists or liberals running. No one on the moderate or conservative line at all.

 

[dphantom]

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

Originally posted by: maddogchen
this reads like a bad chain email.

I'm actually very impressed. There are "hot button" issues being discussed in a very rational and non-combative manner with respect being given to both sides by the other.

Kudos (so far ) to P&Ners!

I'd have to agree. This is one of the most civil discourses I have seen...so far.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: dphantom

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: maddogchen
this reads like a bad chain email.

Meh. Conservatives will vote for Conservatives.

That's the problem. There are no conservatives in this presidential election. You have either socialists or liberals running. No one on the moderate or conservative line at all.

You mean fascists and socialists are running. Although none are hard-line (except maybe McCain with his warmonger stance).

There are no liberals or conservatives running, although Obama is about as close to a real liberal as we've seen in a long time.

Hillary BTW is a seemingly ironic mix of populist and corporatist.

 

[Mail5398]

Originally posted by: hellod9
IF....


1. You want more troops in Iraq.
2. You believe we should have permanent military bases in Iraq -- for "100 years" or more.
3. You want the U.S. to spend more money on the war on drugs.
4. You want abortions to be banned in the US.
5. You want people to be jailed longer for drug crimes.
6. You support the USA PATRIOT act.
7. You believe corporations should pay less in taxes.
8. You support the "without warrant" surveillance of Americans making phone calls to other countries.
9. You believe liberty comes from God!!!



...then you know you should support John McCain!

Corporations should pay less taxes. I like having a job. Not all of us get welfare check's like the OP.

 

[dphantom]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: dphantom

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: maddogchen
this reads like a bad chain email.

Meh. Conservatives will vote for Conservatives.

That's the problem. There are no conservatives in this presidential election. You have either socialists or liberals running. No one on the moderate or conservative line at all.

You mean fascists and socialists are running. Although none are hard-line (except maybe McCain with his warmonger stance).

There are no liberals or conservatives running, although Obama is about as close to a real liberal as we've seen in a long time.

Hillary BTW is a seemingly ironic mix of populist and corporatist.

Fascism is a most overused and misunderstood term. There are no fascists running. Obama is a socialist, Clinton and McCain liberal.

To further clarify, Rudy could have been considered moderate, Romney moderate to conservative (depending on what side he felt like that day) and Huckabee conservative. Paul would be more libertarian/isolationist.

Just my opinion. I don't like calling people names just because you disagree with a policy. None of the three would ever, I believe, compromise the US and undercut our democracy. But we can disagree with the policies and methods each would use to accomplish their agenda.

 

[Vic]

More than half of America either works for small business or is self-employed.

IOW, subsidize your own job, thank you very much. I don't get a welfare check and I'm sick of paying for your corporate welfare.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: glenn1
Still waiting on folks who agree with point 9 to elaborate on what they believe the source of liberty to be, if not God.

Do you mean agree or disagree with point 9? I'll assume disagree.

God in this context is a generic term. You could interchange it with words like Nature, Creator (like in the DoI), or whatever. The point is that inherent rights don't have a source. They just are. A priori.

The US Army has a saying about discipline. It goes, "The Army can't actually make you do anything, it can just make you wish you had."

All inherent rights exist that way. The government can't take away my right to speak freely (without killing me), no matter how hard it might try to do so. Every other inherent right is exactly the same way. They exist until taken away by force. But contrast against the so-called positive rights, and they're not that way. They don't exist until given.

If you need God as a source for that which just is, so be it. But, like all of science, it's not necessary to provide any source for something which is a priori.

Well said, Vic. Especially in regards to what I put in bold. The word "Creator" was a perfect word for them to use, too, because it represents only what the individual believes. The word unites us, instead of dividing us by our individual religious or nonreligious beliefs.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: maddogchen
this reads like a bad chain email.

Meh. Conservatives will vote for Conservatives.

If that were true, Ron Paul would be winning!!

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: dphantom

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: dphantom

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: maddogchen
this reads like a bad chain email.

Meh. Conservatives will vote for Conservatives.

That's the problem. There are no conservatives in this presidential election. You have either socialists or liberals running. No one on the moderate or conservative line at all.

You mean fascists and socialists are running. Although none are hard-line (except maybe McCain with his warmonger stance).

There are no liberals or conservatives running, although Obama is about as close to a real liberal as we've seen in a long time.

Hillary BTW is a seemingly ironic mix of populist and corporatist.

Fascism is a most overused and misunderstood term. There are no fascists running. Obama is a socialist, Clinton and McCain liberal.

To further clarify, Rudy could have been considered moderate, Romney moderate to conservative (depending on what side he felt like that day) and Huckabee conservative. Paul would be more libertarian/isolationist.

Just my opinion. I don't like calling people names just because you disagree with a policy. None of the three would ever, I believe, compromise the US and undercut our democracy. But we can disagree with the policies and methods each would use to accomplish their agenda.

Your opinion is wrong. Comically so. I really truly hope that one of these days they bring back civics and polisci education in our schools.

If Obama is a socialist, then why isn't he pushing for a universal health care mandate? (While the supposedly "liberal" Hillary is BTW). Why hasn't he called for the nationalization of private businesses? Of ANY private business? Do you even know what socialism is?

I could go on with examples from all 3 candidates. And those others.
The mayor who foreclosed on almost any property he didn't like what it was being used for is a moderate? The corporatist with the UHC mandate is moderate-to-conservative? The theocrat is a conservative?
No.

You're right that Paul is an isolationist, but he's also more of a ultra-conservative constitutionalist than a libertarian. Even libertarians have SOME hint of progressivism in them.

Fascism is easily defined BTW, and I'm not overusing it. Corporate welfare (tax breaks and subsidies) is a great example of fascism, where an otherwise unprofitable for-profit business is kept afloat by public monies. Endless wars with huge government military expenditures is a corollary of that. An entire industry, privately-owned and for-profit, kept in business with public monies. That is fascism.
When I say fascism, I'm talking Mussolini. Hitler and the Nazis were National Socialists.

 

[Mail5398]

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06....html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Ireland is a very good example of what should happen in this country. Educate the workforce and make it cheaper for businesses to do business in the U.S.


It really is that simple but most politicians are mental retards. You do not attract companies to the U.S. by reducing profit. Corporations can locate anywhere they want to.

 

[Moonbeam]

There is this universe in which potentially sentient beings arose who can feel infinite oceanic love for all creation. The lover and the beloved are one and love is totally free. God, the universe, science and man all agree we are free right back to the very first atom. Freedom is at the ground of our being and every human child born will seek it. It's in the genes.

 

[RightIsWrong]

Originally posted by: Mail5398
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06....html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Ireland is a very good example of what should happen in this country. Educate the workforce and make it cheaper for businesses to do business in the U.S.


It really is that simple but most politicians are mental retards. You do not attract companies to the U.S. by reducing profit. Corporations can locate anywhere they want to.

You do realize that Ireland has universal healthcare paid for through taxes and also caps annual tuition for college, right?

Part of the reason that we are getting less educated people joining the workforce is because education is now becoming a privilege of the privileged instead of something that is affordable for all.

Some of the colleges in the US are charging well over $50k/yr for tuition while Ireland (actually all of UK) is capped at $3k pounds a year for ALL universities no matter your stature.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

Some of the colleges in the US are charging well over $50k/yr for tuition while Ireland (actually all of UK) is capped at $3k pounds a year for ALL universities no matter your stature.

Nit picking, but you're including room and board right? I don't know of any tuition costing more than $37,000 or so.

 

[RightIsWrong]

Originally posted by: sirjonk

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

Some of the colleges in the US are charging well over $50k/yr for tuition while Ireland (actually all of UK) is capped at $3k pounds a year for ALL universities no matter your stature.

Nit picking, but you're including room and board right? I don't know of any tuition costing more than $37,000 or so.

Yeah...it was w/room and board. But you are still talking about the tuition cost being 12x that of UK institutions before room and board with rates having gone up > 40% over the last 5 years while the quality of the education has dropped. I could almost understand the former if the latter were going in the same direction.

 

[nageov3t]

Originally posted by: sirjonk

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

Some of the colleges in the US are charging well over $50k/yr for tuition while Ireland (actually all of UK) is capped at $3k pounds a year for ALL universities no matter your stature.

Nit picking, but you're including room and board right? I don't know of any tuition costing more than $37,000 or so.

isn't harvard 40?

I could be totally wrong, it'd been a good 10 years since I was applying for colleges.

jesus... I can't believe it was a decade ago that I was applying for early admissions and running around stressed out as hell. lol.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Vic
More than half of America either works for small business or is self-employed.

IOW, subsidize your own job, thank you very much. I don't get a welfare check and I'm sick of paying for your corporate welfare.

then normalize the tax system for individuals and get rid of the corporate tax. right now corporate profits are, as a legal burden, double taxed to the shareholders, and as i explained in another thread, the tax is largely economically borne by the lower down workers anyway.

income is income regardless of the source it is derived from. if our laws actually worked that way instead of favoring various types of income (and consumption) then you'd have to remove the corporate taxes to make the system rational.

not to mention a lot of small businesses game the tax code to get the lowest possible taxes, as it stands right now.

'uh, yeah, that's a company car, a company house, and a company washing machine. no, the groceries are mine.'

 

[Duwelon]

1. You want more troops in Iraq. - yep, I want us to win *gasp*
2. You believe we should have permanent military bases in Iraq -- for "100 years" or more. - stupid point
3. You want the U.S. to spend more money on the war on drugs. - drugs are bad, mmkay. They hurt the poor the most, and minorities. If you really are a fuzzy bleeding heart liberal, what's your beef with the war on drugs?
4. You want abortions to be banned in the US. - ban the murder of unborn babies? not in my land!
5. You want people to be jailed longer for drug crimes. - stupid point
6. You support the USA PATRIOT act. - stupid point, unless you want to point out parts of it you don't like.
7. You believe corporations should pay less in taxes. - stupid point, you can only squeeze so much out of a corporation before it hurts it's ability to hire employee's or pay them fair wages.
8. You support the "without warrant" surveillance of Americans making phone calls to other countries. - I got almost no opinion on this, except to say that if we know a phone call is being placed to a known terrorist, we better be monitoring it.
9. You believe liberty comes from God!!! - check. If you dont' believe in God you will believe in anything.



I wasn't happy when McCain got nominated, but he'll get my vote over Obama or Clinton any day.

 

[Duwelon]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
What's scary is that people exist in this country that actually agree with points 1-9.

Amazing how much bigotry is on the left and/or Godless.

 

[Duwelon]

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

Originally posted by: Mail5398
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06....html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Ireland is a very good example of what should happen in this country. Educate the workforce and make it cheaper for businesses to do business in the U.S.


It really is that simple but most politicians are mental retards. You do not attract companies to the U.S. by reducing profit. Corporations can locate anywhere they want to.

You do realize that Ireland has universal healthcare paid for through taxes and also caps annual tuition for college, right?

Part of the reason that we are getting less educated people joining the workforce is because education is now becoming a privilege of the privileged instead of something that is affordable for all.

Some of the colleges in the US are charging well over $50k/yr for tuition while Ireland (actually all of UK) is capped at $3k pounds a year for ALL universities no matter your stature.

Nobody has to spend 50k a year to get a good education. $10k a year will get you a very, very good education in the US and there's more than enough government funding and banks lined up to loan this money.

Also, think about this: When the government increases it's grants and scholorships, what do you think the colleges are going to do? Lower their prices? Basically every new increase in the amount of money the government takes from the rich and gives to the poor goes right into the pockets of the colleges.

 

[Mail5398]

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

Originally posted by: Mail5398
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06....html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Ireland is a very good example of what should happen in this country. Educate the workforce and make it cheaper for businesses to do business in the U.S.


It really is that simple but most politicians are mental retards. You do not attract companies to the U.S. by reducing profit. Corporations can locate anywhere they want to.

You do realize that Ireland has universal healthcare paid for through taxes and also caps annual tuition for college, right?

Part of the reason that we are getting less educated people joining the workforce is because education is now becoming a privilege of the privileged instead of something that is affordable for all.

Some of the colleges in the US are charging well over $50k/yr for tuition while Ireland (actually all of UK) is capped at $3k pounds a year for ALL universities no matter your stature.

I would like to see the tax structure overhauled. I also would like to see corporate taxes, small business taxes, etc. abolished. We should focus on taxing individuals.